There IS a best version of the deck, and that may change with the meta, but at any given moment there exists an optimal list.
"But if we were to assume that there is a "best version" then it must be Quadlazer since it won in the mirror and placed higher than your list at the same event."
- I hope you're embarrassed by using such simplistic logic. I mean, I've likely had more success with the deck than you, that must mean, by your logic, that I'm a better player than you. Would I hold myself to such a claim? No. there's no way to prove it. And Grisselbrand, it will not see play in dredge, for reasons explained in previous posts.
Cabal Therapy. It's a crime to not play 4. I'll hold my opinion that playing any less makes you an idiot.
Of course the value of any given card depends on the other cards that are in the same deck, given that Dread Return is one of the strongest cards available. OBVIOUSLY bridges and Narcomoebas affect the power level of Dread Returns. I am currently under the impression that you are a simpleton for making the argument, then claiming I don't know the format/deck etc. is clearly a blind underestimation of me as a player. My resume is available on the SCG site, and I've already provided links to my deck(s).
As for the board. It is BECAUSE I understand the format and the deck itself that the board plan is possible. Why dismiss the idea because you think that playing the same old fair sideboard amounts to higher skill? Dredge is an unfair deck. It's time for an unfair sideboard. The sideboard takes advantage of opponents who expect their GY hate to be relevant. The board plan is deceptively fast and surprisingly easy to assemble. The 4 tutors ad the 8 Looting(12 if you count flashback) effects that naturally exist in the main make fining the pieces in a timely manner more than possible, it makes it easy.
When did land become the enemy? TWELVE? in a deck that is amazing at recovering from the card disadvantage inherent in taking mulligans, you've made it even more risky to take the mulligan when needed. it's like you're watching a match and the player keeps a one-land hand and proceeds to get crushed. you ask him why he kept the hand, and he tells you that it had so much gas! well, of course it did, it wasn't a keepable hand. average dredge in a 12 dredger list is 5, GGT+SWI+GT/12=5, so in 60 cards you want an average of 12 dredgers with an average of 5. The other non-dredgers are IRRELEVANT once you start dredging. regardless of what the other cards are, you should still hit a dredger in every draw. So the idea that you can't have any fluff makes little sense.
Bloodghast. Bloodghast does more work for me than Ichorid. It generates MORE tokens than Ichorid does, and I can get it back twice in the turn I go off. IT, along with FKZ and DR, allows me to truly combo off, and not require me to grind-out games like Quadlaser has to.
Last edited by JBulko; 07-29-2012 at 09:50 PM.
I was poking fun at you for thinking there is a best dredge list, so naturally I picked one that did just a little better than yours at the same event.Originally Posted by JBulko
Also, you probably are a better player than me, but that is neither here nor there.
Cal: "I'll tell you the truth. I'm a little confused by your tactics."
Ricky: "Tactics?"
Cal: "Yeah, I'm gonna keep acting tough until I figure it out. Alright? So, Wha-- See you on the track."
I think that the sideboard is the real power of the dredge, the only way to survive against cards that can give game loss. I see a lot of sideboard made in this way:
3 firestorm
2 chain
3 nature's claim
Vs maverik all of these cards can be a solid choice. But are 8 cards. What is the best choice against maverik? And against other decks? And the best side-out?
It depends on which version you are playing. As for the Quadlaser version I'm not boarding anything against Maverick. I just have to be faster than them. If they have got Leyline of the Void in their sideboard - luckily I haven't encountered one yet - you have to board a few removal. But for the standard GW(r) Maverick SB, boarding nothing should be enough.
GP Ghent 2012 - 37th out of 1,345
Bazaar of Moxen VI 2012 - Vintage - Winner out of 337
Maintal Legacy April 2012 - Top 8 out of 127
Bazaar of Moxen V 2011 - Legacy - Top 4 out of 633
Bazaar of Moxen V 2011 - Legacy last chance trial - Top 16 out of 146
GP Gothenburg 2010 Side Event Legacy - Top 16 out of 132
Sayed by a good player like you is a good advice. I'm talk about LED dredge, other than quadlaser. Can you help me?
Then, vs show and tell? What is the best side?
You will want some number of Chain of Vapors and or Nature's Claims in that particular match-up. Sneak and Show, depending on the variant, generally runs Grafdigger's Cage or Leyline of the Void - two problematic cards if not readily prepared.
Surgical Extraction is another possibility, so you can also run additional 'gold' lands in the sideboard with cards like Ashen Ghoul to continue added pressure in the event your Bridges or Ichorids become exiled.
So..was part of a 50+ Players tournament yesterday. Went 3-3 =/.
Most games were..bleh.. either I got the nuts or was just drawing/dredging lands/useless stuff.. 1 game was a really fun..the others..mostly not so much.
Played Quadlaser
-1 PImp
+1 Tarnished citadel
Sideboard:
1 Tarnished Citadel
3 Ashen Ghoul
4 Nature's Claim
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Memory's Journey (as I expected a lot of extractions)
3 Firestorm (for my lack of Darkblast and since I was assuming some Peacekeepers (I was right..but did not play against a single one)..
Match 1 vs High Tide,
He's a friend of mine and play's the deck the first time for a tournament.. anyway I start with 2 LED, Looting, Land, Dredger..he's dead on t2.
G2 I keep a hand of Breakthrough, Dredger, 2 LED's, Land, Theraphy.. since I thought he would only keep a hand with Fow I start with Theraphy (which get's fow'ed) and extracted.
I draw a looting and despite my Breakthrough getting another fow he's dead on my next turn.
2 Times the nuts..
1-0 (2-0)
Match 2 vs Maverick
G1 I have the nuts..he's dead on t3.
I did not know what hate he plays..more Ooze,Bog, Crop Rotation (which get's played a lot for a few weeks here around). Tutor board? So I did not board anything in..
G2 He starts with a Crypt, Arbor go.
I play a PImp, discarding a Dredger on my upkeep and go in slow-dredge mode.
A few turns pass..he attacks me.. I get some Narcomoeba, even some Zombies as he still did not blow up the Crypt.. he get's an Kotr with an active Jitte when he finally blows up the Crypt. Still I manage to bring him to 1 several times but he gains life with Jitte all the time.. 1 stupid point of damage..
He get's an Elspeth and a few turns later I die..really close game and it was fun (oh and he had an extraction somewhere on my Ichorids).
G3 Mull to 6, to 5, to 4, Land, Bridge, 2 Study's.. finding lands and other draw spells till I'm dead.
1-1 (3-2)
M3 vs Maverick (with blue splash)
G1 Keep a hand of 5, consisting 2 Lands, 3 Draw spells.. on t4 I've drawn every land in my deck and he has an Ooze and a Gaeas Cradle..
G2 Kinda the same.
Fun times..huh..
1-2 (3-4)
M4 vs Thopter-stuff.
G1 I'm to fast.
G2 I'm to fast..
Both games he stood no chance.
2-2 (5-4)
M5 vs MUD.
G1 I start with looting to get a Troll in my graveyard, he starts with Land, Monolith, Metalworker go.
I dredge a bit, hitting some Therapys destroying his hand (only lands left), unfortunately I did not hit a Bridge nor Ichorids.. anyway he topdecks an Wurmcoil Engine, followed by a Steel hellkite and I die soon.
G2 I've got the nuts, he dies.
G3 I've got a hand with which I could slowdredge with a Thug..thought it'd be to slow..so I Mull..to 6..no Land/dredger.. to 5.. no land no draw spell..to 4.. nothing.. to 3..3 Lands.. keep. He plays 2 Gravediggers cage..I draw 2 nature's Claim.. draw go for a while.. but while I draw 4 Lands, he gets something online and I die.
2-3 (6-6)
M6 vs Dragonstompy
G1 I snapkeep a hand with 1 Land, 2 LED's, 2 Lootings, 2 Dredger..awesome right?
He mulls to 5, starts with Chalice on 1.. -.-
Anyway I draw an Coliseum and blow it up, killing him fast.
G2 We both mull to 6, he starts with mountain, SSG, Chalice on 1 to slow me down, which forces me toll wait a turn for Breakthrough x=2 to bin my Dredgers, slowdredge for 2 turns, hitting no other dredger and as helpless for several turns. Luckily he drew his lands to late and I did hit 1 Ashen Ghoul, 1 Narcomoeba and 3 Ichorids..which bring him down before he does anything but playing a Bloodmoon.
3-3 (8-6)
So.. 14 games of Magic.. 1 which was fun..and the others total blow outs from one side.. well sometimes you got these days..hitting nothing or everything.. But because of this I could not analyse my mistakes properly.. I think I gave up M2G2 when I did not attack with 1 Narcomoeba to block his flying (thanks to Elspeth) equipped knight.. should have taken the damage and I had won.. urghs.
There exists a best version of the deck IF:
you know every single deck in the tournament you're going to play against, every single card they play, the order in which you are going to play against them and the exact order of cards in their decks. Plus, you have to know the exact order of cards you are going to draw with your own deck in every game.
Hasn't happened to me yet.
That's Putrid Imp cursing you for cutting him. The additional land caused an awesome flood :D
After seeing all these discussions about Dredge and the metagame. I don't see this deck as a meta-dependant deck. It's a blowout to whatever lacks on graveyard-hate. Dredge would win every single match (except for storm-combo, probably) if people did not use graveyard-hate.
This deck WILL lose to a tier 4 deck (like Mono-Green Treefolks, for example) if their sideboard consists in: 4 Leyline of the Void, 4 Ravenous Trap, 4 Tormod's Crypt, 3 Relic of Progenitus.
And it WILL punish Tier-1 decks if they're soft on hate.
That being said, this is not a meta-game dependant. Because every single deck is capable of running hate, and they do run. It's not like Painter-Stone combo against Merfolk. It's Dredge against Hate.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
Well.. it really did feeled this way yeah..but what I did not say.. at least 2 Games (maybe more) I kept a hand with a single Tarnished Citadel as my land, which I otherwise probably did had to mulligan (for better or worse, who knows?).
All in all I would not necessary change it back.. well maybe.. I really don't know.. got to test it further.
Do you think you really need your Journeys in addition to the Ashen Ghouls to beat Extraction-Effects? Yesterday in a 53 people Tournament some guy extracted my Bridges (VS U/G Infect), but Ichorid and Ghouls got there, another guy (Goblins) extracted my ichorids but Ghoul and Bridges were enough to beat him (too bad he won the first game cause of my mulligan to 3 and killed me with an unexpected cage G3...he played 4 extractions and 4 cages...)...^^
Even against R/U-Delver, where I was not sure whether he plays Crypts or Extractions, the Ghouls helped soooo much after a topdecked crypt that I was able to win the match.
Btw: Yesterday I won more post-board matches than pre-board matches with the Quadlaser-Build (-1 Thug/ +1 Darkblast) cause of the lack of lands in my opening-7s G1...maybe a variance of stochastics, I will test it again because the list seemed very strong).
I'm going to go with the Ghouls (now that I have them) over the Memory's Journey and Firestorms I had in the sb. Hopfeully it works better. I alos dropped the 1 maindeck Journey in favor of a Citadel (so now I have zero Journeys in the 75). I really felt the Journeys were never useful (or I was never in a spot where I could use them when they were useful) and I often wished I had just 1 more land in the deck. We will see.
I'm preparing for an event this Saturday and at the moment I intend on bringing quadlazer with -1 ichorid -1 golgari thug, +1 dread return +1 darkblast running Elesh Norn and Flayer of the Hatebound with another DR SB. I love how consistent quadlazer is but I really dislike the idea of no dread returns, in my meta there are a lot of ensaring bridge/humility, thopter foundry, and elves decks. I've found that while I can be a lot faster then these decks if I hiccup at all winning via attacking becomes very difficult. I really like that flayer can give you "same turn" kills without actually attacking at all. Elesh just destroys elves and I don't feel comfortable enough with the match up to not run him.
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
Won't the DR maindeck be a wasted slot then? or do you only intend to use it after SB and keep it in the main to save a sb slot? Otherwise I think it might still be better to make room for a singleton DR target main-deck.
At the moment I'm trying out a Quadlazer build (-1 Thug -1 Breakthrough // +1 DR +1 Flame Kin Zealot) but I have no additional DR targets in my SB since I side them out in almost every matchup anyway to make room for the Defense. I've also been thinking of going to the full Quadlazer list, or replace the DR/FKZ that I have now with +1 Firestorm +1 Thug.
I'm still very undecided since I don't get much time to test this out, but I feel that a DR main without a target is a wasted slot, better used by adding a target main, or just taking out the DR completely.
I think he meant that Elesh is main and the Flayer is sideboard.
I'm going to say this tho, never cut the dredgers! I dropped 1 Ichorid and 1 Study to make room for my Dread Return and target. If you drop a dredger you are trimming what the deck does. I don't agree with that at all.
He didn't cut a dredger. He exchanged a thug for a darkblast.
MD dread return without a target is not a waste, it still generates a large amount of zombie tokens and gets one of the following creatures:
a) Grave troll. A massive creature able to regenerate, and with an activation cost that the deck is capable of easily paying.
b) Sinkweed imp. A deathtouch flyer that can defend against a variety of threats.
c) Thug. Thug can be sac'd to therapy to put a previously sac'd Narcomoeba back on top of the deck, generating even more future tokens.
each line of play can be relevant in special situations. But regardless, Dread Return is the biggest burst of tokens available to Dredge.
I am a recent Dredge player, still testing the waters with the deck, but I currently don't have 4 LEDs (only 3) what is a good replacement for the 4th? Should I up 1 discard outlet or a land?
My list is a typical LEDredge list running Ichorids over Bloodghast and currently only run 8 rainbow lands and 4 Coliseums
Sounds like you are running quadlazer. If you already have four putrid imps and maxed on everything else. Add a tarnished citadel, you could add a dread return for token generation. It's a preference. If you don't have four putrid imps, add a fourth.
It is close to Quadlazer save -1 Breakthrough and LED right now for Dread Return and Flame-Kin Zealot, if I were to add a land I was thinking Undiscovered Paradise.
My board will sometimes add more DR targets and another DR, unsure if I should just cut that plan altogether and go Quadlazer with Ashen Ghouls on board
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