[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[bruizar]

@Bruizar --

I personally dislike red versions that do not run Burning Wish (Scapeshift is debatable). That doesn't mean that I won't attempt to offer solid advice to those who are trying to make it work. Also, Huntmaster is vastly superior to Finks. Broodmate is very meh, I'll agree, and Lightning Bolt is one of the better cards in the history of the game. I disagree that it's "mere removal." As you note, planeswalkers are really good in Deed decks. That means they're also really good against Deed decks, and Bolt is a good way to help fix that problem for the straight Jund lists.

There are ways to react to Jace without requiring a red splash

I've experimented with Gitaxian Probe, and found it lacking. I recognize the benefits to Probe, but I'd rather make the deck more powerful as opposed to more compact. Playing a 56 card deck (+4 probe) is really good if you're a storm deck. It's not really good if you're a control deck.

Obviously, you don't know the list I'm talking about, as it will result in infinite probes=infinite deck converted to infinite damage.

Gifts is better for an Unburial Rites package, because you don't have to run trash like Gigapede, and it can set up much more devastating piles when you aren't on the Unburial plan. Liliana does get better alongside such a package, I'll grant, but I think that the overall clunkiness of going all-in on that concept (like I think you're suggesting....if I'm wrong, please correct me) is really not worth it. Best case scenario, you're a strictly worse Reanimator deck. Congratulations. What makes t3 Unburial flashback for Iona better than a much, much more consistent t2 fatty? This isn't even accounting for the Reanimator hate that it already prevalent within the meta.

What are your Gifts piles? Unburial Rites was, at the time we discussed the deck, not even in existence yet. The combo I was talking about is different, but from testing, the minor splash of 1 Unburial Rites, 1 Gigapede and a dude was hardly a problem. You could even just leave the Gigapede out of the deck and go for a Cabal Therapy.

I'm pretty sure that becoming a legacy Solar Flare deck is exactly the last thing we want to do, I'm sorry. The closest would be a Gifts version, but that's a true control shell with a combo, not the tempo/control of Solar Flare. Going all-in on the Solar Flare package sounds atrocious.

I'm pretty sure that you don't know what the hell you're talking about

Your claim that your team developed the deck originally is invalid and irrelevant for several reasons, but I suppose I should address it anyway:

-) This is the first you've appeared in a year+ old thread, so obviously you don't care about the deck.
-) As you note, this deck is different from what you developed anyway.
-) I can't speak for Tao and everyone else in the thread from the early days, but I thought of the Explorer/Therapy concept individually and came to Source with it. I didn't netdeck it from anyone. Saying that it's an "imitation" is only going to piss people off.

1) I have nothing to prove. I think I responded to our Facebook page the week this thread was made, telling them they shouldn't have tested on MWS as we were planning to bring it to the GP.
2) As I note, this deck runs the entire framework / engine that we had made long before the Amsterdam GP, except it then adds useless cards like Garruk Primal Hunter and Broodmate Dragon.
3) It might, it might not be, who knows and who cares. I'm just steering you in the right direction for what I think this deck should be.

This thread is for a primarily rock-style control deck. This isn't Solar Flare. This isn't a combo deck that is strictly worse than every other combo deck in the format. And if you think that this "isn't good enough for tier 1 play," what are you doing here other than angering the people who have actually put the time and effort into this deck? Go away, troll.

Constructive.

Oh, and by the way, this deck has acquired a good fistful of top 8s that disagree with you, especially considering that it isn't a popular deck, and there are basically no professional level players that run it.

Meaningless.

[Megadeus]

I agree there and I feel like Green Sun gives us great amounts of utility already. My though was use the wish as like a 2 of, just for random little situations.

[Viridia]

There are ways to react to Jace without requiring a red splash


Obviously, you don't know the list I'm talking about, as it will result in infinite probes=infinite deck converted to infinite damage.


What are your Gifts piles? Unburial Rites was, at the time we discussed the deck, not even in existence yet. The combo I was talking about is different, but from testing, the minor splash of 1 Unburial Rites, 1 Gigapede and a dude was hardly a problem. You could even just leave the Gigapede out of the deck and go for a Cabal Therapy.


I'm pretty sure that you don't know what the hell you're talking about


1) I have nothing to prove. I think I responded to our Facebook page the week this thread was made, telling them they shouldn't have tested on MWS as we were planning to bring it to the GP.
2) As I note, this deck runs the entire framework / engine that we had made long before the Amsterdam GP, except it then adds useless cards like Garruk Primal Hunter and Broodmate Dragon.
3) It might, it might not be, who knows and who cares. I'm just steering you in the right direction for what I think this deck should be.


Constructive.


Meaningless.

I really don't want to join in on the flame-war, but you really don't have any right of saying anything without actually giving us a list with card choices etc. explained and testing results.

[Water_Wizard]

oh btw Water_Wizard. Why did you board out Thoughtseize against UW? also Lightning Bolt isnt that bad against Jace. hmm. Why did you leave the Deeds in? Angel tokens?

I boarded Thoughtseize out over Liliana. I wanted permanent discard. However, I think I over-estimated Liliana vs. the UW Miracles match up. Vs. a UW Stoneblade list, I think Liliana is good. The reason is, they have to hold cards in their hands. STP, equipment they tutored up with a SFM, counterspells, Jace, if they are tight on mana, etc. Against UW Terminus, they play off the top of their deck. UW Terminus also taps out a lot less, relying more on flash creatures and miracles end-of-turn, so the matches play out much differently. Because UW Stoneblade needs to tap out to build board presence, you can sneak Liliana into play around a counterspell and then cause them to discard their counterspell. Conversely, UW Terminus hardly ever taps out, so any counterspells they possess are being aimed at Liliana.

Additionally, Lil's -2 is good vs. UW Stoneblade because they usually only have 1 or 2 creatures on the board at a time (SFM, SCM, germ token), but Terminus produces a slew of Angel tokens, so the -2 doesn't really matter, especially when they EtA at eot.

Another concern I had was Countertop lock (I don't think it's right for the UW player to leave Counterbalance in, but I'll discuss this below). I was already running a considerable amount of 1-drops (3 Pyroblast, 4 Cabal Therapy, 3 SDT, 4 Veteran Explorer, 2 Extirpate). 3 casting cost is historically hard for UW decks to hit - they usually only run 1-2 3 CC cards (Vendilion Clique, Entreat the Angels). Because I predicted the game would go long, I figured Lil was a much better top deck in the mid-to-late game, as opposed to Thoughtseize.

However, I think we actually take the Aggro role in this match-up, so it's important to come out swinging, and I think an early Thoughtseize is crucial, especially on the Extirpate plan.

In the future, I will most likely leave Thoughtseize in and take out 2 Liliana.

Regarding Lightning Bolt for Jace, a good player, after seeing Lightning Bolt game 1 (which he did) will automatically hold priority and +2 Jace, negating Lightning Bolt's effect. Plus, I had 3 Pyroblast, so I had answers to Jace (hopefully catching him on the way into play).

Deeds and Pulses were for Angel tokens and for Counterbalance. The bane of Counterbalance decks is 3 cc cards. To a lesser extent, Deeds and Pulses helped out with Snapcaster Mages, which is one of the few creatures their deck runs.

@W_W: The lack of Wasteland doesn't bother me -- but then my main version is the Rector version, which has Vindicate for that purpose, so I can definitely acknowledge that complaint.

I was wondering what that Vindicate was for. How often do you actually find it? Additionally, do you find it is that helpful for land destruction? I guess you could rebuy it with E. Witness, but that seems pretty slow.

Curse of Death's Hold is what you're thinking of. Without nutting all over the place, is it really going to be fast enough vs combo elves, you think? Obv. landing it with a nut-draw is awesome, but generally speaking I'm less than enthused - especially in a non-white version that won't have access to Enlightened Tutor or Rector.

I'm sorry, I was thinking in a GBW Rector shell, I just didn't mention it.

I think that U/W leaves CB in vs us because if they go t1 Top t2 CB, that's going to cause some problems. Yeah, we have a lot of really varied mana costs including ones that basically nobody in legacy ever touches, but if they land CB lock while we're in the developmental stage, we're definitely going to have issues with that. I think if I were playing UW, I would take CB out vs Nic Fit...but I can certainly see the arguments for why they'd leave it in. Depends on their board I guess more than anything.

I commented on this above, but the bane of Counterbalance is 3 CC. Perhaps they board out some number of Counterbalances, but it's just not that strong of a card vs. our deck. Deed and Pulse really wreck it and they run 1-2 Cliques, 1-2 EtAs, so 3 CC is the weakest spot in their deck, assuming they leave FOW in. I was surprised to see that card as well.

I still say that Liliana isn't as great as everyone makes her out to be. I dunno. Agree@Alexeezay -- why did you board out the Thoughtseizes?

see above

Aether Flash, Aggro Loam, Extirpate

I think in the Jund version, Firespout is best. Firespout solves the board state, while Aether Flash on prevents future creatures from coming into play. Depending upon the version of Jund, I would worry about the RR cost, too. I recently added a 2nd basic Mountain to my deck, but I'm only running 4 red sources, and because I already have BB and GGG, it would be difficult to support RR as well.

Thanks for your comments and clarification about Aggro Loam and Extirpate.


SO, I played 5 matches last night with the Jund version and 2 games with a modified version of Arian's Rector list.

I made some changes to the Jund list, adding a 2nd Mountain for the 3rd Swamp and swapping 2 Innocent Blood for 2 Thoughtseize and adding a 2nd Scavenging Ooze for Deranged Hermit.

In the sideboard, I added 2 Firespouts for 2 Damnations, switched a Pyroblast for a Ancient Grudge, and removed a Scavening Ooze and an Extirpate for 2 Tsunamis

So, match 1 is against Merfolk and I just get absolutely killed. I blind Therapied on turn 1 and named Aether Vial to see a hand with Temporal Mastery, Brainstorm, 3 land and some fish. It turns out he was running Ponder, Brainstorm, and Temporal Mastery, I assume for some fish and other flex slots like Spell Pierce, Standstill, and Dismember (because he still ran Daze and Force of Will).
I made a play mistake on turn 2 when I GSZed for Veteran Explorer and flashbacked Cabal Therapy. He was able to put 2 Islands into play and Brainstorm in response to Therapy, hiding what he needed.
Game 2 was rough. He had a creature light hand, but he did have Daze and double FOW. He brought in Relic of Progenitus to keep me from using Ooze and gaining value from E Witness. One note on Merfolk, if they aren't playing creatures, they are holding counterspells (barring Aether Vial at eot), so play accordingly.

Match 2 I played the BG version of Nic Fit. From what I could tell, it seemed very similar to Caleb Durward's version including Grave Titan's, Deranged Hermits, and Hymn to Tourachs. What did someone say about the mirror match? It's like hippopotami fighting underwater? Well, this match was a little faster than that because he found Grave Titan both games and quickly beat me down with tokens. The Jund version doesn't really have any answers to a resolved Grave Titan, sans token removal followed by a sacrifice effect. I guess Pulse would work, but then you still have to deal with those tokens. On a related note, I think it's proper to remove all or some of your Veteran Explorers vs. the mirror and rely on top and land drops. Veteran Explorer almost always benefits the opposing Nic Fit player, because it is usually sacrificed at sorcery speed, meaning the opposing player will be able to more fully utilize the new lands.

At this point, I almost gave up on this deck. I was 0-2 for the night and 1-7 over the past two nights.

However, time for a little comeback :)

Match 3 was vs. Junk. His list looked similar to the list that T8'd GP Ghent, including Lingering Souls. Game 1 he stalled on mana. I had a bolt for his Dark Confidant and I was able to control his Goyf with Ooze. During a critical attack phase, I sacrificed my own Eternal Witness to Phyrexian Tower in order to eat it with Ooze, causing him to lose on a triple block (Goyf and 2 Soul's tokens).
Game 2 he left Mox Diamond in, which I think is a mistake vs. any deck running Deed because you 2:1 yourself once a Deed hits play. However, turn 1 Hymns and Dark Confidants can make up for this. Versus a less-removal heavy deck, it may be proper to leave in Mox Diamond in hopes of turn 1 Confidant -> card advantage -> victory, but vs. the Jund deck with Lightning Bolts, it's just too much of a risk.
This game comes down to him having an active Liliana, I spin my top and see fetchland and Garruk, Primal Hunter. I have 4 lands in play. I put fetch on top and Garruk 2nd from top. Draw fetch for the turn and play, Switch Top for Garruk, placing Top on top of my library. Crack fetch, shuffling Top, play Garruk and create a 3/3 token. I continue to create 3/3s, which he handles via Liliana and 2 Ghastly Demises, eventually building Garruk up to 7 loyalty. I have 10 lands in play and make 10 6/6 Wurms. I pray he doesn't top deck Engineered Explosives, Deed, or Maelstrom Pulse. He doesn't and I win.

Match 4 I don't remember much of, other than it was a win, I believe in 2 games. I'll look at my notes tonight and edit this if anything comes to me.

Match 5 is versus RUG. Game 1 he mulls to 5 and doesn't play a land. He doesn't drop any lands and on my turn 3 when I sacrifice Veteran Explorer via Innocent Blood, he conceeds. I incorrectly put him on Belcher and sideboard accordingly. Game 2 he leads with Tropical Island. I immediately realize my mistake, but I made an early Scavenging Ooze. He proceeds to drop 3 Wastelands into play, although it really doesn't matter because I have 3 basics. Ooze keeps beating for 2 and he concedes after Veteran Explorer joins the party. Not an exciting match, mainly my opponent losing to mana screw.

I ended up 4-7, so while not great, not horrible either. I'm still learning the deck, so I made some play mistakes and I also felt like I was on the bad side of variance while some of my opponent's were on the good side. Be strong and carry on.

At the end of the night, I played 2 games for fun with the Rector version vs. a GR budget Sligh deck (small, hasty creatures and burn). The first game I mulled to 5 and he was able to come out with enough quick beats and burn to finish me off. Game 2 I hit my early land drops and was able to Deed his board while I was at 4 life and he had 1 card in hand. The next turn I hit my 5th land to play Thragtusk, going up to 9. He Magma Jets me and attacks with a Hellspark and a 2 power creature. I had to block a Hellspark with Thragtusk and I drop to 5 with a 3/3 token in play. The following turn I hit my 6th land and cast Kokusho. I am able to get a Rector in play, swing with Kokusho, sac Rector to Tower, recur Kokusho twice. The next turn, I jumped Thragtusk (I bought him back with an E Witness somewhere along the line) with Elspeth to finish him off. He had some extra life from a Swords to Plowshares I used twice, via E. Witness recursion.

What I take away from these two games is that the Recurring Nightmare / Kokusho engine is rather slow. Additionally, it seems like everyone brings in graveyard hate vs. Nic Fit, so the Recurring engine only gives value to those sideboard cards. I think I'll keep playing the Rector version, but removing Recurring / Kokusho and Fleshbag Maurader (I never understood the point of this card, plus you have no way to tutor for him) for Ooze, Pridemage, and possibly a 4th GSZ. I think I may also try removing Fierce Empath and Sun Titan for additional Swords to Plowshares or a Primeval Titan. Fierce Empath has 1 target (Sun Titan), so it's an overpriced 1/1 if you happen to draw Sun Titan before hand. Additionally, Sun Titan and Moat are a non-bo. I realize you probably wouldn't want both in the same match, but you never know. Anyhow, I'll be tweaking the Rector version, any comments are welcome!

[Claymore]

Alright, I'll just say that your findings and next steps on Rector Fit made me go outside and mow the lawn. :P

Play a few more matches against decks that are actual legacy decks before taking out the powerful engines that experienced NicFitters (sorry) love and which make spectators go "wow, Legacy is insane".

[Kung Fu English]

Alright team, it's been about a week since I posted and 1 tournament has passed, but I've caught up on all the posts.

I played in a local 20 man legacy tournament in SW michigan last weekend with GBw. Here is the list:

Creature (16)
2x Baneslayer Angel
2x Eternal Witness
1x Grave Titan
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Sun Titan
1x Thragtusk
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Veteran Explorer

Sorcery (10)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Vindicate

Instant (3)
3x Swords to Plowshares

Enchantment (4)
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

Artifact (3)
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Planeswalker (2)
2x Liliana of the Veil

Land (22)
3x Bayou
3x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Marsh Flats
2x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
1x Curse of Death's Hold
3x Extirpate
1x Humility
1x Perish
3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Memoricide
2x Damnation
1x Ichneumon Druid

I ended up 2-3 :/.

Round 1: had no idea what he was playing as he spent his first turn playing a land and discarding volrath's stronghold at some point. I got very confused and had no idea what to name with cabal therapy so I was just picking random things. He ended up getting out a Lilliana and kept Innocent blooding and cabal therapying me but it turns out he was on 43 Lands or Aggro Loam. I stabilized and got out a scavenging ooze to take him out g1. g2 was more of the same. I can't remember how I sided but I remember I ended up stabilizing at 1 life with a master of the wild hunt on board and took him out just before time. 1-0

Round 2: A quick volcanic made it clear he was on sneak and show or RUG delver. I think I named brainstorm first, then delver with therapy. He had no stifles. I made a lot of play mistakes game 1. Since I wasn't sure what he was on I grabbed duals with my fetches and he topdecked 2 wastelands. I made him FoW an explorer which left his hand void of counterspells, but the next turn he top decked a spell pierce and ruined my GSZ day. This left me at 2 mana the whole game with deed and pulse in hand. If i'd grabbed basics, i win. g2 I resolve explorer and get it off with therapy and proceed to roll. g3 I kept a sketchy 6 and never drew another land. 1-1.

Round 3: Playing my friend I drove there with. He's playing sneak and show which is all my cards because he has none. g1 I get karakas in play t2 and proceed to roll him. g2 I get a karakas again, and I have lilliana and a bunch of good stuff that should seal the game for me. He show and tells in a griz, which is fine but I vastly misplay and return it with karakas at teh end of MY turn, leaving it tapped which led to him sneak attacking into emrakul with me having no defense. g3 he t2 emrakuls and i have no answer. 1-2 because i'm a bad player.

Round 4: Spanish inquisition. We both grind for value all game. I take out his batterskull with therapy after stoneforging and then i pridemage his jitte and i win g1, he just grinds me with souls tokens g2 and we go 1-1 then into g3 he just outgrinds me. Well played on both sides, drew too much land down the stretch and no business. g3 I remember he extirpated or memoricided my deeds and something else too. 1-3

Round 5: Dredge. Guy has only been playing it for 1 week. I figured it out quick and got an ooze in play sealing the g1. g2 was similar, I sided out lilly and cabal therapy and brought in some stuff. He misplayed a cabal therapy naming ooze and when i had GSZ in hand I fetched the ooze the next turn, ensuring victory.

Overall I did ok but made many a play mistake so it's hard for me to judge. Things I learned:

Baneslayer is pretty nuts if they dont have removal right now. They usually can't attack through it.

Liliana is OK but I think I am going to drop her for Hymn to Tourach's again. I felt lacking in disruption severely.

Sigarda is of course bonkers and will win the game single handedly. Thragtusk is also awesome but with no way to recur him I found myself wanting more. I think 1 of kitchen finks to go along with tusk so you can get it back with sun titan would be ideal, honestly.

Pridemage was pretty good and active in most matchups, but could be a SB card easily.

If one big drop had to go it'd be Grave Titan but he wins games.

4 Swords to plowshares woulda been nice I think.

22 Lands is probably 1 too many. I might drop 1 Bayou.

1 Maindeck Karakas is very handy. 2 Phyrexian towers is correct as well. You can get to 4-5 on turn t2-3 very consistently.

SB stuff:
Humility/curse of deaths hold never happened. Probably not worth it without running rector.

Enlightened tutor was sub par at best. I never cast it even if I had it.

Carpet of flowers is pretty good.

Memoricide/extirpate is great. I need to find a cranial extraction to add.

Damnation/perish never really came up.

Ichneumon druid I can't wait to actually use but I never played high tide or anything that would die to it.

I hope I can find a chains of mepho without paying 50 for it.

Overall I am going to change the deck substantially I think. The living wish plan sounds interesting especially to the point of grabbing karakas from the SB and thus being able to remove it from the main (or a 2nd in SB).

This is what I'm thinking for new list:

Creature (16)
2x Baneslayer Angel
2x Eternal Witness
1x Grave Titan
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Sun Titan
1x Thragtusk
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Veteran Explorer

Sorcery (12)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Vindicate

Enchantment (4)
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

Instant (4)
4x Swords to Plowshares

Artifact (3)
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Land (21)
2x Bayou
3x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Marsh Flats
2x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
3x Extirpate
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Humility
1x Perish
3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Memoricide
2x Damnation
1x Ichneumon Druid

[Water_Wizard]

Alright, I'll just say that your findings and next steps on Rector Fit made me go outside and mow the lawn. :P

Play a few more matches against decks that are actual legacy decks before taking out the powerful engines that experienced NicFitters (sorry) love and which make spectators go "wow, Legacy is insane".

No worries. I'll keep plugging away. Admittedly, I'm at a lower experience level with this deck than some of the other posters. (Although I do consider myself pretty-well versed in the overall Legacy format ).

I didn't include this in my post, but I probably should have. The decisions I made were not based only upon my two games vs. a non-tiered Legacy deck, but also upon Viridia's GP Ghent tournament report, located here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Rector-Nic-Fit

At the end of his report, he comes to much the same conclusions. His deck is a little bit different than Arian's build and the build I made is a combination of the both of them. I basically adopted his changes to the deck, while adopting a few of my own.

I still don't understand Fleshbag Marauder. On his own, he's a good creature, but with no way to tutor or find him, he just seems too strange as a 1-of. All of the other 1-of's (beside a lone STP or Vindicate some lists run) can be found via GSZ or Rector. Thoughts on Fleshbag? I know this was discussed a few pages ago, but if I remember correctly, the discussion didn't get into specifics and focused on 'I like Fleshbag' or 'I don't like Fleshbag' type comments.

Congrats on mowing your lawn. I'll make sure create posts like that every time your grass gets high (no pun intended).

[Alexeezay]

ah ok thanks for the insight

[Arianrhod]

So....infinite posts while I was at FNM. Good, I like discussion :P

I'll add a more thorough read-through sometime tomorrow or Sunday, but for now I'll try to explain Fleshbag a bit. Fleshbag is a way of creating a The Abyss without actually hurting yourself. It's essentially a lategame solution when combined with Sun Titan or Volrath's Stronghold to completely lock down a board state. It's also a Show and Tell-able Innocent Blood, which can be pretty awesome. It's also something that I've pretty much discarded for the moment....it's really good when there's a lot of Sneak around, but otherwise it's backseat material. Definitely not something that needs to be in the deck given the current meta.

[Claymore]

I've been a fan of flesh bag for awhile now, but I run him at x2. Apart from his great game 1 show and tell, he is a good early play against aggressive decks in a meta that largely do not care about your targeted removal, and sometimes early plays are what this deck lack. I would probably play Innocent Blood if it wasn't for the prevalence of Show in my area, but I do like his synergy with Sun Titan. He also gives you additional "emergency" sac outlets for Explorer.

I don't like him as a Singleton though, because that adds to the randomness of the deck. His x1 might have been a carry over from the days of Pod or Garruk Relentless..who I sometimes find myself longing for, haha. Dat creature tutor...

I'm curious why you say he isn't good in the current meta, since the largely top deck of RUG Delver has the incredibly annoying Mongoose, Maverick rolls with Mother of Runes, and of course there's Show and Tell. It's a dead card against other combo, but I treat him as a removal spell anyway. Actually, many decks seem to run creatures that avoid StP, or they roll with Spell Pierce to ruin your day.

Liliana is OK but I think I am going to drop her for Hymn to Tourach's again. I felt lacking in disruption severely.

I would run targeted discard over Hymn. I've been stalking the Rock thread and it's always a debate, but in the match ups where you want disruption (High Tide, Spanish Inquisition, Show and Tell, Hive Mind) you will want to hit their combo piece and not hope to hit it, especially early game where a Hymn might just be a redundant draw spell and a land followed by death... That is, if you make it to turn 2 at all. Since we don't overload on discard to rip hands apart we need our few disruption spells to be very precise. In other match ups we don't really need our turn 2 discard to be a random 2 for 1 because the rest of our deck is designed to do that, so I've been running between 2 and 3 discard spells (duress, IoK, or Thoughtseize) in addition to Therapies to decent success and haven't found it to dilute the deck too much.

I also find Gaddock Teeg to be more widely applicable than Iccunemon Druid (or whatever). Teeg can stop or slow down a wider variety of combo decks (Ad Nausem, Hive Mind, Sneak attack/through the breach, parts of High Tide) as well as stop Force of Will. Druid will slaughter High Tide and Storm of course, but as far as my testing goes that's about it.

Speaking of Hive Mind, is there another good counter to it? I found that Angels Grace was used before to stop the trigger on your turn, but I'm not sure if Grace would have use outside of this match up, like against storm or other combo decks in general.

[bradstone]

@ Kung Fu English: Your deck has GG, WW, and BB.... and a lot of it. Has this been giving you trouble at all? I know that any versions I've made haven't been able to support something like that.

[Kung Fu English]

@ Kung Fu English: Your deck has GG, WW, and BB.... and a lot of it. Has this been giving you trouble at all? I know that any versions I've made haven't been able to support something like that.

I haven't had any trouble hitting ww or bb. Mostly bb is turn 3 for Lilly or late game, and ww is late game too.

The difficulty comes with bb on turn 2 for hymn. But casting liliana isn't a problem. This will probably be why I get a single cc discard spell over hymn as well.

You have so many options to fetch so getting the colors you need isn't too hard. And often you are using p tower to get the black you need as well so there's that.

[Star|Scream]

Any good testing with a gifts list lately?

[Philipp2293]

I'm currently testing a really cool 4 colour intuition based list. It's still really really rough but the basic shell seems pretty sweet. If testing proves succesfull I'll share it.

[novatinhu]

Hello guys, Im very happy to say that i won my local event today, the matchs are:

Round 1: Bye
Round 2: Dredge won 2-1
Round 3: Belcher won 2-1
Round 4: Dredge won 2-1
Round 5: Maverick won 2-0
Round 6: ID
Semi: Belcher won 2-0
Finals: DragonStompy won 2-1

Im playing BGW list with 3 Seize main deck.

Cya

[Viridia]

How on earth did you beat Belcher twice, even 2-0? Even with the extra discard that is a bad matchup :P

[Arianrhod]

I'm guessing that Belcher went all in on Empty the Warrens / couldn't find a Belcher, and Deed went boom. It's possible...it's just also very rare.

[novatinhu]

How on earth did you beat Belcher twice, even 2-0? Even with the extra discard that is a bad matchup :P

4 leyline
4 Cabal T
3 thoughtseize
1 E. tutor
1 EE
2 liliana
1 Gaddock teeg
2 Duress

Both games are 2-1 my mistake

[Claymore]

Would you mind posting your list/sideboard? Your build seemed strong against the unfair decks, which is a problem I have in my meta.

[Vacrix]

Has anyone tested Diabolic Intent? I'm playing it in a different list currently and its a beast.. but in this deck it would basically be a Demonic Tutor. It would allow you to find Deed when you really need it, or whatever else you need to adapt to the opponent's strategy. Playing it maindeck especially would mean that your post-board hate becomes that much stronger when you can tutor it up at will.