[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

[Tammit67]

I also really like 2 wipeaway right now, for that reason.

Cages do shut off PiF, seems like a liability. Dread of night does blank thalia/mother though, and finding a second might not be so unreasonable. Will have to test

[Tombstalker]

Dread of night is the real deal. Thing is it answers thalia/mindcensor/mom which all directly and greatly inhibit us while teeg/canonist only prevent the kill. Its true qpm >> dread but pridemage is also a heavy mana investment just to recover from a wrath for B. I love dread in conjunction with bounce and a single wish removal. Finding a 2nd dread is pretty easy and its even worthwhile sometimes to tutor a second depending on the board state because 2 dread is usually game.

[JamieW89]

Dread of night is the real deal. Thing is it answers thalia/mindcensor/mom which all directly and greatly inhibit us while teeg/canonist only prevent the kill. Its true qpm >> dread but pridemage is also a heavy mana investment just to recover from a wrath for B. I love dread in conjunction with bounce and a single wish removal. Finding a 2nd dread is pretty easy and its even worthwhile sometimes to tutor a second depending on the board state because 2 dread is usually game.

I'm still not a fan of cutting Chain of Vapor completely for a more narrow answer. During 3 days at the GP I played Maverick in one round (and that wasn't even really maverick, it splashed black) out of the 25 I played. In Doomsday, when you can include a singleton bounce in the pile, I would advocate a dedicated answer to the most popular and challenging aggro deck. In ANT I'd like some multifunctionality.

That said, if you know you'll be facing loads of Maverick then you should play some DoN.

[Tombstalker]

JamieW89 would you mind posting a report for us? Also I haven't cut bounce for dread just swapped CoV for echoing truth due to chalice. My current board for reference:
4 dread of night
3 surgical extraction
2 echoing truth
1 rebuild
1 tendrils
1 ill-gotten gains
1 empty the Warrens
1 meltdown
1 pyroclasm

This isn't built for GP's though, just what I encounter.

[JamieW89]

JamieW89 would you mind posting a report for us?

Won't be too interesting since I failed (3-1, 2-1 trials, 5-3 GP, 6-3 €1500 as mentioned).
My losses in the GP were against burn (AdN fail + a 4 outer topdeck), merfolk (I resolved more mulligans than spells in both losses) and Bant (I failed to count due to fatigue + topdeck thalia).
I played 0 moxen and Ad Nauseam was terrible the entire weekend. It was so bad that I just took TES to a local tourney today (and 5-0-2'd into a t4 split).

Considering your sideboard; It seems solid overall. I'd advise a number of Extirpate over extractions since they hit reanimate harder. I prefer Chain of Vapor over E.Truths myself as they build storm better and bounce cheaper. But if you really meet a lot of chalice then ET is obviously good. Hurkyl's Recall could be considered over Rebuild too.
My plan against RUG (both with ANT and TES) was to board into 3 Empty the Warrens postboard and it's been decent so far.

[Tombstalker]

Ive seen plenty of lists with extirpate/SE but not much talk of defense grid. With all the blue decks running around and the tricks of reanimator including instant speed reanimation spells and exhume-> entomb somewhat invalidating extraction effects ive been considering grid in place of extractions. Seems great against countermagic which also makes it great against griselbrand shenanigans not to mention RUG delver where xantid swarm isnt. In fact its even good against chants. So, is there a reason grid isnt ran more often? Obviously extractions still have their place but they are those slots better occupied by grid or perhaps something else?

[Tombstalker]

All the discussion of EtW main in the TES thread has inspired me to try it out in ANT. So far ive been impressed with the results, with a few hangups.

I like how EtW brings intense pressure while ad naus still acts as an emergency button for winning immediately. However I have noted times that tendrils main would have won against decks with griselbrand, batterskull, elesh norn, wurmcoil engine, terminus etc, where I couldnt quite win with wish-> tendrils. That being said EtW usually cleans house with almost no chance to recover, especially if a therapy is ditched to hellbent prior to casting EtW.

Anyway Ive been bouncing back and forth between UBr ANT and TES frequently over the last month or two learning each decks nuances trying to find my preference. With the new change in maindeck wincon for TES im trying to come to grips with this and how the different acceleration suites (RoF/mox vs CR/less mox) affect the EtW plan. In doing so I find myself questioning the benefit of RoF over cabal ritual, especially with probe + fetches feeding cabal ritual much more quickly and CR making t1 warrens just as easy, often easier from what I can tell. In testing CR becomes active after t1 frequently and is on color.

So has anyone else tried this out yet because its seems this plan could be even better in ANT since EtW jives great with probe therapy (better than SCM which ive now ditched) and ANT has a more solid manabase + better cantrips which matters to me.

Heres what im running right now:

8 fetch
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 badlands (feels like a 2nd volc might be better)
1 island
1 swamp

4 LED
4 lotus petal
1 chrome mox

4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 brainstorm
1 ad nauseam

4 ponder
4 gitaxian probe
3 duress
3 cabal therapy
1 thoughtseize (may revert to 4th duress)
4 infernal tutor
3 burning wish
1 past in flames
1 empty the warrens

Sideboard
4 dread of night
2 defense grid (havent played with these yet)
2 echoing truth
1 hurkyl’s recall
1 silent departure
1 ill-gotten gains (please remind me why I still run this?)
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 pyroclasm
1 meltdown (might change to pulverize?)


The SB really just reflects what I face most commonly that gives me problems; RUG, maverick, sneak and show, MUD, dredge-> iona, reanimator.
Im no expert with storm yet but ive tried most of the common SB 'engines' and many just seem like extra or alternative ways to showboat a win and/or fill very cornercase applications instead of hating on something common, so this is what im using for now.

[aaronm678]

All the discussion of EtW main in the TES thread has inspired me to try it out in ANT. So far ive been impressed with the results, with a few hangups.

I like how EtW brings intense pressure while ad naus still acts as an emergency button for winning immediately. However I have noted times that tendrils main would have won against decks with griselbrand, batterskull, elesh norn, wurmcoil engine, terminus etc, where I couldnt quite win with wish-> tendrils. That being said EtW usually cleans house with almost no chance to recover, especially if a therapy is ditched to hellbent prior to casting EtW.

Anyway Ive been bouncing back and forth between UBr ANT and TES frequently over the last month or two learning each decks nuances trying to find my preference. With the new change in maindeck wincon for TES im trying to come to grips with this and how the different acceleration suites (RoF/mox vs CR/less mox) affect the EtW plan. In doing so I find myself questioning the benefit of RoF over cabal ritual, especially with probe + fetches feeding cabal ritual much more quickly and CR making t1 warrens just as easy, often easier from what I can tell. In testing CR becomes active after t1 frequently and is on color.

So has anyone else tried this out yet because its seems this plan could be even better in ANT since EtW jives great with probe therapy (better than SCM which ive now ditched) and ANT has a more solid manabase + better cantrips which matters

Do you have trouble casting your spells? This is a pretty aggressively 3 color list that is rarely hitting its 3rd land drop, and chrome mox is almost never going to be red. It seems to me, if you want to run this much red, just go with the 5 color mana base with rite of flame, as you're really not going to be able to fetch basics.

I don't even like burning wish, as its a pain in the ass to cast it against wasteland. Just for reference...I have the exact same mana base as you, + a u sea and a fetch, and I run 1 maindeck red card...if nothing else, cut the chrome mox for a volcanic or something.

[j_rb]

...if nothing else, cut the chrome mox for a volcanic or something.

I agree with this, In a list supporting MD empty you probably want 15-16 land. Other than that it looks solid.

I also believe dread of night is a solid inclusion and have always loved it since thalia's release, but would probably cut 1 for a thoughtseize. That way it can come in against decks with clique, thalia, teeg.

Also whatever you do, don't use pulverize in the board. It's so bad that I would rather have shattering spree even though the deck has no rites. I believe meltdown is the right call for Ant as you don't have enough red for shattering spree and also run Hrecall board. That plus meltdown give enough artifact hate that pulverize is probably unnecessary.

[Tombstalker]

Do you have trouble casting your spells? This is a pretty aggressively 3 color list that is rarely hitting its 3rd land drop, and chrome mox is almost never going to be red. It seems to me, if you want to run this much red, just go with the 5 color mana base with rite of flame, as you're really not going to be able to fetch basics.

I don't even like burning wish, as its a pain in the ass to cast it against wasteland. Just for reference...I have the exact same mana base as you, + a u sea and a fetch, and I run 1 maindeck red card...if nothing else, cut the chrome mox for a volcanic or something.

Just erased a lengthy reply, oh well. In short ya some hands do play out slower if fetching basics but probe/discard will often tell me if thats necessary. Without chants/swarms I believe the fetchland manabase is superior to gold lands due to shuffle effects and lower lifeloss/no expiration like the golds.

Ive changed my mindset on wish lately and now I like it better. I look at wish as a "dead end play", which is to say I dont expect to loop back to the main, for one, thus the lack of alternate engines in the board. I usually use it to EtW although obviously it is necessary for tendrils. This is also why I only run 3.

I also believe dread of night is a solid inclusion and have always loved it since thalia's release, but would probably cut 1 for a thoughtseize. That way it can come in against decks with clique, thalia, teeg.

Also whatever you do, don't use pulverize in the board. It's so bad that I would rather have shattering spree even though the deck has no rites. I believe meltdown is the right call for Ant as you don't have enough red for shattering spree and also run Hrecall board. That plus meltdown give enough artifact hate that pulverize is probably unnecessary.

Dread is the best SB playset ive come across for maverick, its amazing. Ive actually dropped the defense grids though since they didnt work out as predicted so I now have a discard in its place. Good to know about pulverize, I dont own the card so it was just theory on my part but so far meltdown (+ hurkyls/e.truth) usually does what I need.

My main points of contention with the deck right now are 1. right of flame vs. cabal ritual and 2. manabase.

The main differences, besides color, is that CR supports bigger spell chains easier but is often almost a turn slower. It also doesnt fight through countermagic as well unless I have 3+ lands in play. RoF otoh is faster but supports less mana intensive lines of play. Prior to probe and EtW main plan I would say CR was my preference since a singleton can power out tutors/ad naus by itself, but now im considering RoF since the deck can reliably drop 10+ goblins t1-2 then just short storm for lethal if necessary. This takes alot of pressure off generating 10+ spell chains and even makes alternate engines somewhat obsolete.

I wish someone would just construct a 3 color TES/ANT list with a stable manabase. Im testing 1 island now but at that point not really sure its even worth the bother.

[GoblinSettler]

I wish someone would just construct a 3 color TES/ANT list with a stable manabase. Im testing 1 island now but at that point not really sure its even worth the bother.

Have you checked out Grinding Station?

I really like the list from Jona's March 2012 blog post here: Weekly Wars

The mana is solid. Everything feels consistent.

Next time I play it, though, I want to try a second PiF main. Maybe I would remove a Rite?

...

Edit:

I realize that Grinding Station has its own thread. Don't mean to derail this one. But you are asking about a solid manabase. I propose that this one is.

[Dia_Bot]

I'm still not a fan of cutting Chain of Vapor completely for a more narrow answer. During 3 days at the GP I played Maverick in one round (and that wasn't even really maverick, it splashed black) out of the 25 I played. In Doomsday, when you can include a singleton bounce in the pile, I would advocate a dedicated answer to the most popular and challenging aggro deck. In ANT I'd like some multifunctionality.

That said, if you know you'll be facing loads of Maverick then you should play some DoN.

That's pretty much my feeling too. I've played 3 DoN sideboard (basicly because I couldn't affort wasting 4 slots on Maverick) and only came across maverick in one round during both days of the GP.
Ironicly I've won that match without seeing even a single copy of the card.

I think in a UBr list like the one played by Timo Shünemann or Ellie Pichon where you have access to preemptive answers you could do without the DoNs if you want and swap them for bounce. (This is ofc not recommended if you expect a lot of Maverick)

For the record I played a 7 chant version at the GP

[MTG Junkie]

A 7 chant list,how did that work out for you?
Interested to see your list as well.

[Tombstalker]

MTG Junkie
A 7 chant list,how did that work out for you?
Interested to see your list as well.

Seconded.

Have you checked out Grinding Station?

I really like the list from Jona's March 2012 blog post here: Weekly Wars

The mana is solid. Everything feels consistent.

Next time I play it, though, I want to try a second PiF main. Maybe I would remove a Rite?

Ive never even heard of that deck but it seems pretty resilient due to storm in hand, if you can draw into a storm card right? Personally I dont ever see myself playing without tutors since its one of the main appeals of storm for me. But, reading that thread did give me an idea (in the opposite direction of PiF) and ive been testing all last night and this morning.

To everyone whos been playing the full set of probes, why do we still run a secondary engine (PiF/IGG) in the main besides Ad naus? It seems to me that probe and EtW has largely replaced these engines.

Anyway bare with me on this, but ive moved PiF to the board and replaced it with EtW so EtW and tendrils main + 2 chrome mox, with PiF/IGG side. Heres why:
Ive found that my most common and even preferred early plays are (not necessarily in order)

-t1-2 EtW followed up by mini tendrils if necessary, meanwhile dumping my hand for EtW is like instant threshold. Probe + IMS facilitates this as a very common very broken t1 play and with therapy the deck acts like dredge here.
-Ad Nauseam-> IT/BW-> tendrils win (with sufficient life).

Later plays:
-cantrip/tutor chains-> win (this can also happen very early thanks to probes/IMS)
-last option, for me, is threshold cabal rituals enable alternate engines from the board.

I dont really miss maindeck PiF/IGG for any of these, also EtW is better than PiF vs. RUG delver. I would move tendrils to the board but ive missed it main more than the alternate engines due to more focus on Ad naus, tutor chains and natural mini tendrils. Lastly BW into PiF is a bait play with teeth, whereas IT for PiF is an all in play, sometimes even winmore. Meanwhile EtW in hand is usually going to be better than in-hand PiF except in the later stages of the game where we dont want to be.

Anyway maybe this isnt news to anyone but me so if not forgive the redundant post. Im pretty pleased with this so far though because UBr ANTs manabase works well with this setup since none of these plays require double wish/double red investment.

So, downsides?

[Dia_Bot]

A 7 chant list,how did that work out for you?
Interested to see your list as well.

Seconded.

The list I played was the following:

2 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest

4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Ad Nauseam
3 Orim's Chant
4 Silence
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

SB:
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
3 Dread of Night
3 Extirpate
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island

I was quite happy about the way the list worked out. The one thing I would probably change is adding one more G. Probe to the maindeck in favor of a land but that is pretty much it.

The idea was to have a stable mana base and a decent matchup against both the T1 decks (Maverick/reanimator/RUG..) as well as against the "random" decks. The reason for this is because I didn't have any byes going in the tournament.

My record for day 1 was 7-2 and for day 2 (unfortunately) 1-2 drop. The reason for the bad record day 2 was the fact that I had to play totaly sleep deprived day 2 and made mistakes because of it. (apparently getting any sleep is quite necessary when playing a magic tournament )

Anyway, I played the following matchups day 1:

R1: Blue zoo W (2-0)
R2: Counterbalance W (2-1)
R3: Esper Blade W (2-1)
R4: Omnisience combo L (1-2) lost this one to a topdecked omniscience when I had a certain kill the next turn..
R5: Hive Mind W (2-1)
R6: Esper Blade W (2-0)
R7: Dredge W (2-0)
R8: Reanimator L (1-2)
R9: RUG W (2-0)

Day 2
R10: Maverick W (2-0)
R11: Show and Tell L (0-2) (Guy who made top 8)
R12: Merfolks L 1-2 drop
I should always have won the merfolk matchup but lost due to my own fault...oh..well..

All in all I was very happy with the way the deck worked (certainly considering the matchups day 1) and was quite bummed out to scrub out because of sleep deprivision. Luckily I saw my favourite deck win it all .
If you have any questions about the list, feel free to ask.

[Tombstalker]

Dia_Bot- Fucking awesome list man! I dont play white but that one has me tempted. Its like a throwback to ol'school with some new chant tech. Double naus double mox is something I was just considering today in fact, like an classic ANT with a double barreled carb and straight pipes. I must say though my current list is running like a champ tonight. Its the most pleased ive been with any variation so far. Only lost 1 game to reanimator and a fucking massacre wurm of all things killing 18 goblins and me.

Heres mine:
Lands 14
8 fetch
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 badlands
1 island
1 swamp

Artifacts 9
4 LED
4 lotus petal
1 chrome mox

Instants 13
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 brainstorm
1 ad nauseam

Sorceries 24
4 ponder
4 gitaxian probe
4 duress
3 cabal therapy
4 infernal tutor
3 burning wish
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens

Sideboard 15
4 dread of night
2 echoing truth
1 hurkyl’s recall
1 silent departure
1 cabal therapy
1 ill-gotten gains
1 past in flames
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 pyroclasm
1 meltdown

Having both EtW and tendrils main is so good, I dont think ive ever double stormed so often and I havent even considered wishing for PiF/IGG once so far. I might try your UB shell though instead of wishes while still keeping the discards since therapy is nuts with probe and warrens.

[Dia_Bot]

Thanks man!
I really like the idea of running both ToA and EtW maindeck in UBr AnT.
I'll definitely try it out in an UBr list.

I would however personaly try to incorporate some graveyard removal in your sideboard to battle reanimator (and to a lesser extent dredge) because they can still be tricky matchups.
At first sight I would say the H. recall, silent departure and either Pif or IGG could be removed in favor of graveyard removal should you want to add some.
Other than that your list looks alot like the UBr list I was playtesting with and was quite happy about.

[Tombstalker]

Ya IGG might go since i never need it and maybe even silent departure although that is actually more for reanimator/dredge then for maverick. The hurkyls might could go too, I just have a real hard time with prison decks like MUD or anything running chalice/3sphere. If I did drop these it would likely be for a couple extirpate and/or a couple karakas for sneak and show and reanimator, leaning towards karakas since those decks have ways around even instant speed grave hate.

Try both wincons main I've been very pleased so far in limited play and testing.

[Zieby]

Dia-bot,
How did swarm work for you in the gp?

On another note.
Did someone test autems veil as a 3 or 4 in the md with discard and swarm and carpet in the sb?

[Tombstalker]

On another note.
Did someone test autems veil as a 3 or 4 in the md with discard and swarm and carpet in the sb?

I think that is often referred to as the 'german list'. I asked a similar question some pages back but the answer I got is the red splash is better for ANT; otherwise with green TES is better (xantid swarms plus silence/discard) or QSI (carpet/swarm/discard). I was looking at UBg possibly with living wish fwiw.