All B/R update speculation.

[eq.firemind]

B: Swords to Plowshares.

Wizards of the Coast will fix that sooner or later.

[menace13]

It sounds more like a one-trick pony and after you go for it you might as well scoop if they sword your dude and you have no force..

A few quick points.

It can be artifact lands as well no need for Chrome/Diamond.

The Tinker deck will play a lot more disruption.

Or in other decks, just side the 5 card package to play with Tops.

Inkwell.

[Infinitium]

Eh. If you're going to directly compare Tinker with anything it's probably Natural Order. For all the bullshit S&T brings to the table (quite literally) at least it requires you to build around it as opposed to the very compact Tinker package. Also 3cc. Also Blue. Granted I'd love to play it in a MUD/U combo/prison shell with Metalworker (getting Darksteel Forge post-sb) or even prison/aggro with Master of Etherium, but it'd get old fast.

[Kich867]

Yeah they would not be tinkering Blightsteel, not in Legacy, it would be Inkwell Leviathan. There goes all the removal your opponent has for the first few turns, unless they have an edict effect, oh wait I am a blue deck and have free counters as well. Yeah Tinker does scary things, brings out scary large fatties, Inkwell and Sundering Titan come to mind, and all for the cost of running fast mana and/or tops. Seriously, you think Tinker is worse than Show and tell? You get to turn any artifact you have, even an artifact land, into a 7/11 islandwalk trample shrouded dude or 7/10 dude that blows up all of your opponents lands, on turn 2, or 3 if you want to maximize the damage. I am not sure many decks can handle anyone doing that reliably early with protection.

In your given scenario, yes, I believe Tinker is worse than Show and Tell. Leviathan dies to everything emrakul dies to except Karakas (which is obviously a big deal), on top of any sort of cheaper artifact sweepers (Serenity, Seeds of Innocence).

So this again puts it, at least in my perspective, in a worse situation than Show and Tell. Serenity is actually a ridiculous answer to Affinity which you will tend to see in tournaments. Show And Tell is good because it's hard to answer, you can't even go overboard in shutting it down because you're either dealing with an enchantment or a sorcery. If you bring in Pithing needle and put it on Sneak Attack they can still use Show and Tell and bring in grizzlebee or emrakul that way.

Each aspect of Show and Tell requires unique answers, and that's why it's hard to fight (good ol' counters can sometimes do the trick but they do run quite a few of them). The problem with Tinker here is that there's actually an all inclusive answer to the strategy, mentioned above, alongside almost all of the same options you had previously.

Not only that, Inkwell Leviathan is a 3 turn clock. Emrakul annihilation and griselbrand draw power shuts down your own answers, Leviathan and Tinker do no such things.

[edgarps22]

Yes but Show and Tell takes up 12-16 slots in your deck, tinker takes up 5, maybe 6. That is a HUGE difference in how you can build your deck and what else you can put in it. Inkwell gets around a LOT of the formats answers, no O-Ring, no Swords, not much of anything kills it, and in nearly every case it is unblockable. Specifically the commonly used answers to big fat fatties simply do not work, and the answers you suggest are found where? In Enchantress? So in one matchup I have to worry about Serenity, oh wait with all this extra room I have more Spell Pierces and Counterspells.

Heck in a head to head match I would take Tinker over Show and tell into Griselbrand because I can nail you once before you get to do a draw 7, if I hit you twice the game is over. Vs Emrakul I can just play Karakas and O-ring, which I would definitely be playing anyways for Grisel as well, and just make life horrible, with more slots available to control or tempo you out of the game. Tinker takes up so few slots it is scary in what it allows you to do with the rest of your deck. Show and Tell requires so many slots to be devoted to it that it is scary.

[Lemnear]

Except that tinker is also sort of a 2-card combo...you do actually need an artifact down, and since the artifacts you'll likely be hitting are one of the Mox's (Chrome or diamond) alongside an ancient tomb type land, the number of cards required to go off is equal.

Mox (+pitch card), tomb, tinker = 4 <-- still more flexible, but still = cards.
Petal, tomb, show and tell, creature = 4

Furthermore, tinker targets are infinity times easier to deal with. The only real threat you're getting is blightsteel colossus or something. Anything you can get with it is still an artifact or a non-shroud-effect non-draw-7 cards with lifelink creature. They're just creatures that will one or two shot you. Lucky swords to plowshare is around and perma-deals with the threat and now they're left with nothing.

If Tinker was unbanned, for sure I think people would play it, but I doubt it'd be anywhere near as good as Show and Tell simply because A: people play enough free counters to delay it and B: Swords to Plowshare.

Not to mention, if you attempt to go off with tinker early, if it gets stopped you're pretty fucked. Say you go turn 1 tinker saccing a mox, the opponent swords it, now you have a 3 (soon to be 4) card hand, down a land drop or a blue spell. If you ever intend on actually protecting the combo you're likely not going to be able to with 4 cards.

The difference there is that show and tell can refill their hand or their new beater is shrouded from the most common types of removal. The only minor upside to Tinker here is that it's slightly more flexible to go off and you can't get nailed by karakas. Even then, on the sneak attack, an Emrakul wipes their board, Blightsteel Colossus -might- kill them if they don't have enough creatures down to absorb the blow.

Not to mention the dissynergy between Tinker and Sneak Attack. One wants them in your hand, the other wants them in the library, brainstorm only really does so much here. You now have two very different routes to go through between the two cards.

Tinker sounds a lot worse than show and tell if only because it's recovery plan is non-existent. It can't ride the back of an Emrakul to victory because Emrakul can't die and it can't refill it's hand in response to Griselbrand dying to try again. It sounds more like a one-trick pony and after you go for it you might as well scoop if they sword your dude and you have no force. Or if you're getting some janky artifact win, artifact removal is a thing, and will be rapidly if that non-creature artifact win method gets any sort of popularity.

I have no clue that you are talking about. I argued bout the Hilarious comparisons done between Legacy/vintage and S&T/tinker and showed how the comparison lacked in their respective formats and you derail it into: "tinker in Legacy"?

Tinker is a 1-card Combo in vintage available Turn 1 with the Natural fastmana of the format and a robot somewhere in your Deck

S&T needs a creature in your HAND. In Addition it is available later or with tradeoffs like moxen/tomb/etc.

Natural Order needs a GREEN creature on the field and a Green in the Deck.

These 3 are completely different tiers with different requirements and to bite the Troll: Tinker in Legacy would be likely played with Seat of the synod, Opal mox and top instead of shit like chrome mox and ancient tomb.

[Kich867]

Those are fair points.

I don't necessarily agree that Tinker takes up so few spots though. 4x Tinker and a target or two for sure. But now you're messing with your manabase, adding awful things like artifact lands which you can't fetch and tap for a single color. If you're looking at things like Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond you're further restricting yourself or at least drastically impacting the sort of decks you can realistically play.

To say you don't have to cater your deck to tinker I think is a simplification of the situation. You still do have to cater your deck, you still need tinker targets that won't impact you too much that you can reliably find. I would say that you want at least 8-12 tinker targets.

My suggestions of Serenity and Seeds of Innocence are in conjunction with the fact that people are running Gilded Drake and other highly focused sideboard cards in their sideboards, to me all it would be is swapping from one or two focused hate cards to one or two new focused hate cards that still have some decent applications.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I guess a large amount of the bullshit in the named threads comes from the lack to realize that formats work differently.

In terms of mastery i told peeps that a extra turn is Not a extra turn of the Same value while some users only hint to Vintage, the (obvious not the same) 1U cost and the Effect. The value of a turn in vintage is greater than in Legacy. Most should be only an additional attack Phase and a draw. It isn't hard to imagine that a vintage Deck with all the Tutors, oaths, Bobs, trygons, Jaces, tinker, y.will, fastmana, etc. Is able to do in an extra Turn.

Show and Tell: it's a 2-card-turn 2 or 3-combo. Stop compare it to goddamn tinker! Tinker is a One-card-first-turn-threat. This means that (unless S&T plays chrome moxen) you have at least 1 turn before they combo. This is a huge difference

Brainstorm: how many times i read ancestral recall in the b&r thread over the last 4 years only? CA +2 and card selection without CA are the same by today? enlightend. The often quoted "shuffle dead cards away is CA" as banning criteria is like saying "Knight of the Reliquary is CA because drawn additional lands can be transformed into wastelands! It's CA and a beatstick at once and all of that @ Turn 2 (obviously pointing to GSZ for arbor or hierarch)! Ban it!" or "fauna shaman turns your useless mana elves into verdant forces!"

LED: i make this a Short One and say that the reason it's restricted in vintage is yawgmoth's will only. No Will in Legacy -> LED is fine. Only will turns this into a Black lotus otherwise it's a very risky accelerator.

Discussing unbans of Necro, Bargain, Drain, etc.: please stop this bullshit. Read about their history and ... Just for a moment ... Use your brain before suggesting. How wouldn't Turn 3/4 Drain -> Jace -> mana Open for spell Pierce/Drain again become oppressive in legacy control? How wouldn't Necro/Bargain change the face of storm if you can build those Decks without caring for mana cost?

0.02$

I guess a turn 3 Jace is oppressive and a turn 2 Griselbrand isn't, nice rationalization.

The other reason discussing bans is painful is that the status quo bias is everywhere and always dominant over actual reason.

[Kich867]

I have no clue that you are talking about. I argued bout the Hilarious comparisons done between Legacy/vintage and S&T/tinker and showed how the comparison lacked in their respective formats and you derail it into: "tinker in Legacy"?

Tinker is a 1-card Combo in vintage available Turn 1 with the Natural fastmana of the format and a robot somewhere in your Deck

S&T needs a creature in your HAND. In Addition it is available later or with tradeoffs like moxen/tomb/etc.

Natural Order needs a GREEN creature on the field and a Green in the Deck.

These 3 are completely different tiers with different requirements and to bite the Troll: Tinker in Legacy would be likely played with Seat of the synod, Opal mox and top instead of shit like chrome mox and ancient tomb.

It was the only part of the post I really cared to address, cool off for awhile . I'm not trying to troll you or attack you, I'm just saying I don't think Tinker is going to be as good as people are saying it would be.

I also have absolutely no opinion or care for vintage, I'm speaking about Tinker in legacy if that wasn't very obvious and abundantly clear by my post.

[joemauer]

Inkwell Leviathan and Sundering Titan are about the best tinker targets you can get. This doesn't sound that scary. When you are behind against most aggro decks these guys aren't going to save the day like Emrakul, Grizselbrand, or Progenitus do. Show and Tell/Natural Order already cheat these guys in play.

Why would Tinker be more broken than Show and Tell or Natural Order? Why does Tinker need to stay banned but the other two are fine?
I get that Show and Tell has to be built around, but it brings in more devastating creatures.
Natural Order doesn't need more effort to use it than Tinker. You don't see Maverick and every green deck shoving Natural Order into it's deck or sideboard.

Why do people think every blue deck would add a few dead cards and a weakened mana base to their decks just to abuse creatures like Sundering Titan and Inkwell Leviathan? Aren't there better things these decks can do? Like flash a fleet of 4/4 fliers into play at the end the opponents turn? Or cast Jace?

I don't have much faith that Tinker will come off the B&R list considering weaker cards are still on there, but it probably could come off without dominating the format.

[Amon Amarth]

You can put Tinker into any deck with the requisite number of artifacts. Takes up just a few slots that you can put into any deck. There is Control Slaver, Stax, or an Accelerated Blue-esque deck. It wouldn't be hard to break it. It'd be a lot like Flash (remember that card?) where you have a fairly compact wincon in a deck with an absurd amount of disruption. You have space for things like Red Blasts, Pierces, Snares, Daze. You could have Jace as a backup plan. Welder for added resiliency, Thirst for draw, etc. I'm not sure why anyone wants Tinker unbanned. All it does is make Blue decks that much better. And the card is absurdly strong too.

[ahg113]

I have nothing constructive to add.

Whoever suggest(ed) LED should be banned needs a cock punch.

The durdle that is a post t3 Belcher deck, I loved playing against show'n'tell when I had an LED in play and a Belcher in hand. Don't think there was another reasonable way I could've won without his help.

Tinker should stay banned because it does nothing to help me. Blah blah blah.

Cheers,
I had to share that with somoene.

[Fizzeler]

Mind Twist unban?

The card is powerful, but unless you have enough fast mana to power out a Mind Twist for 3 or 4 turn 1, Hymn is better even if Hymn is BB

[Dark Ritual]

Inkwell Leviathan and Sundering Titan are about the best tinker targets you can get. This doesn't sound that scary. When you are behind against most aggro decks these guys aren't going to save the day like Emrakul, Grizselbrand, or Progenitus do. Show and Tell/Natural Order already cheat these guys in play.

Why would Tinker be more broken than Show and Tell or Natural Order? Why does Tinker need to stay banned but the other two are fine?
I get that Show and Tell has to be built around, but it brings in more devastating creatures.
Natural Order doesn't need more effort to use it than Tinker. You don't see Maverick and every green deck shoving Natural Order into it's deck or sideboard.

Why do people think every blue deck would add a few dead cards and a weakened mana base to their decks just to abuse creatures like Sundering Titan and Inkwell Leviathan? Aren't there better things these decks can do? Like flash a fleet of 4/4 fliers into play at the end the opponents turn? Or cast Jace?

I don't have much faith that Tinker will come off the B&R list considering weaker cards are still on there, but it probably could come off without dominating the format.

I love how you forgot blightsteel colossus. Oh yes, unban the card that can enable free wins with almost no effort. Tinker blightsteel in. You lack an answer? You lose. Good game, except not really because tinker is busted. Tinker is a 1 card combo, show and tell is a 2 card combo. Show and tell is tame in comparison to tinker because tinker actually TUTORS while show and tell requires the card in your hand. Ok so instead of running 8+ SnT targets, you're required to run 1 tinker target in your deck. Guess where the other 7 slots go. Oh yes, protection. You may think swords'ing BSC is an out, however why would someone tinker out a blightsteel they can't protect? Such a move is begging to be punished by a plow or some removal. And there is a LOT of protection for blightsteel in the format that would also be quite convenient in the not so uncommon mirror match (flusterstorm, spell pierce, force, daze to an extent.) Unbanning tinker isn't something I'd advise doing EVER in legacy. Unless you want tinker.format to happen. I'd love to play a FULL PLAYSET of the card as well, something a lot of people forget is that legacy is a format of 4 ofs. Having 4 ridiculously busted cards in your deck is something that no format should enjoy when said cards are yawg's bargain, necropotence, flash, etc. etc.

[Lemnear]

It was the only part of the post I really cared to address, cool off for awhile . I'm not trying to troll you or attack you, I'm just saying I don't think Tinker is going to be as good as people are saying it would be.

I also have absolutely no opinion or care for vintage, I'm speaking about Tinker in legacy if that wasn't very obvious and abundantly clear by my post.

I don't feel attacked; I'M the one to say "Sorry" here. I just wanted to prevent a discussion about unbanning Tinker I seemed to cause unintentionally. I'm sure it's a waste to marter our brains with that being that unlikely to happen ever.

I guess a turn 3 Jace is oppressive and a turn 2 Griselbrand isn't, nice rationalization.

The other reason discussing bans is painful is that the status quo bias is everywhere and always dominant over actual reason.

My friend, I think mana Drain would become a staple of Blue control behind FoW and BS and the undisputed "engine" of control. We might Not longer ask: do I run terminus, discard, counterbalance, explosives? No, all would Run drain (and side them out vs. Tempo), counter a Turn 3 Knight of the Reliquary, and hardcast SFM+Batterskull on turn 4 etc. Drain allows such splashy plays that i'm sure ist would be kill most of the other blue Control strategies.

Btw I never commented Griselbrand in any Post before. I just mentioned the repeating comparison between S&T with Tinker. Is tinker the stronger Single Card? Probably. Does ist have Anything to do with Legacy? No, that's the Point i endlessly repeat. I did Not comment S&T's strength in Legacy in any way so don't put words in my mouth, thanks

You know that we had mana drain's unbanning as well as S&T's banning as topics here lately, that's why i picked up both sperately before.

A thumb up @ Dark Ritual being able to differ 1-Card-combos from 2-Card-Combos ;P

[Koby]

I have nothing constructive to add.

Whoever suggest(ed) LED should be banned needs a cock punch.

The durdle that is a post t3 Belcher deck, I loved playing against show'n'tell when I had an LED in play and a Belcher in hand. Don't think there was another reasonable way I could've won without his help.

Tinker should stay banned because it does nothing to help me. Blah blah blah.

Cheers,
I had to share that with somoene.

Truth to the matter:
Every deck utilizing LED has the potential to win the game on the first turn at least 30% of the time, and close to 60% of the time by turn 2.

Is this something we should be proud of?
Is this something we want to encourage?
(just playing the devil's advocate)

[dontbiteitholmes]

Those are fair points.

I don't necessarily agree that Tinker takes up so few spots though. 4x Tinker and a target or two for sure. But now you're messing with your manabase, adding awful things like artifact lands which you can't fetch and tap for a single color. If you're looking at things like Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond you're further restricting yourself or at least drastically impacting the sort of decks you can realistically play.

To say you don't have to cater your deck to tinker I think is a simplification of the situation. You still do have to cater your deck, you still need tinker targets that won't impact you too much that you can reliably find. I would say that you want at least 8-12 tinker targets.

My suggestions of Serenity and Seeds of Innocence are in conjunction with the fact that people are running Gilded Drake and other highly focused sideboard cards in their sideboards, to me all it would be is swapping from one or two focused hate cards to one or two new focused hate cards that still have some decent applications.

You are making way too many assumptions about the way Tinker would be played in Legacy. Tinker doesn't have to be alternate Show and Tell it can be used as a finisher in a control deck, it can be a transformational sideboard in any deck that runs artifacts (cough Tendrils), as well as the combo deck you assume is it's only function (which is probably the worst use of it overall). You don't have to build around Tinker the way you do around S&T. It takes up significantly less slots in the deck, the entire package can be fit into a sideboard, the artifacts you will be saccing do something good on their own and are not just mindless combo pieces, ect.

[funyun45]

Truth to the matter:
Every deck utilizing LED has the potential to win the game on the first turn at least 30% of the time, and close to 60% of the time by turn 2.

Can you show where you got these numbers? Because I play both Dredge and T.E.S., and your numbers jive with neither my personal experience nor the results of my calculations.

[bruizar]

On the topic of tinker, it's not just S. Titan and Inkwell Leviathan. Possessed Portal is also a very bomby tinker target as is platinum emporium and mindslaver. The hypothetical tinker list that I would make would look like Control Slaver / Steel City Vault. Goblin Welder, Faithless Looting or Thirst for Knowledge, and 4 Tinkers and a bunch of control cards (Counters, maybe even an intuition or 2, Jaces). I'm not sure if the format is ready for degenerate control decks like this.

[Koby]

Can you show where you got these numbers? Because I play both Dredge and T.E.S., and your numbers jive with neither my personal experience nor the results of my calculations.

avg(Belcher, TES, SI/x, Dredge)

At least two of these decks have over 50% first turn kills, Dredge and TES have the capacity for first turn kills.
Adding another turn makes TES and Dredge much more consistent to win, as well as rounding out SI/x and Belcher.

The common element to all four decks is LED. No fair deck exists in Legacy that uses LED. Very few other decks in Legacy have even the potential to win the game on the first turn.