Talking about card design and where I'd like to see the game and design philosophies go in future sets. Obviously with a Legacy focus, though there are also some comments on the general direction of Magic as whole. Enjoy and let Wizards know what we'd like to see in the future!
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...acy-Needs.html
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Excellent article, and I salute your growing audience.
I mentioned this in the B/R thread, but I think black discard needs to be pushed. Not necessarily a power creep, but just an expansion of design.
Here's what I said in that thread about an unplayable discard spell, Psychotic Episode, with an undermarketed effect:
I don't think having a Psychotic Episode forOriginally Posted by Shawon
is pushing any power boundaries. You would gain slightly more information than you would with Thoughtseize and the like, but if you choose to get rid of their topdeck, you don't gain any direct card advantage.
I think there are various and creative ways you can design a Psychotic Episode for B. Obviously, you can insert a 'nonland' clause in the text, or change the destination of the selected card (bottom of library, grave, shuffle, exile). I'm saying there's a lot of room to play with there, and that's just with a one-for-one discard spell.
Discard spells that attack multiple cards should be pushed too. When's the last time Mind Rot was played to success in Constructed tournaments? I think if a
Other than Cabal Therapy, I think the most intuitive discard spell I have ever seen is Persecute, which is sadly unplayable in a format full of intuition such as Legacy. Persecute is such an awesomely designed discard spell because it rewards critical thinking and insight on what an opponent is playing and what they may have in their hand. Perhaps a cheaper version of Persecute could be designed for BB, and have players discard 3 cards of a named color instead of all of them. Again, there's a lot of design space there.
RE: Shawon
Addle exists, but is strictly worse than Duress or Thoughtseize. It could be re-designed as a
RE: Article
Good ideas that we've been discussing here on the Source in some threads. Thanks for compiling the ideas into one article and specifically address Wizards / R&D to step up their game when it comes to evaluating Legacy card needs. Kudos on another constructive article!
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Excellent article.
I guess I'm just in a camp of players who believe that any card with some level of competitive nature can be played to its maximum ability in a deck piloted by a skilled player to a big Top Eight. The biggest thing I see about Legacy that is relatively unnerving is how many untapped resources there are as far as unlimited deck-building is concerned. I guess it's just really hard to try something new when you know you have a "sure" thing that runs around in circles in a format predicated on a variety of similar decks that always show up in some capacity.
Point is, I think Legacy is just fine as a whole. However, a big problem lies in the automaton-like nature of larger events where the same decks just keep winning on a constant basis and no one has taken advantage of a predictable meta. At local events, this is obviously less true because of the higher amount of variance and less seriousness/money at stake in the prize pool of said tournament.
At something like an Open where thousands of dollars are literally there for the taking, are you going to walk into that tournament with something moderately original or fresh or are you going to build the same vomit-inducing seventy-five (75) that every other player is bringing into the room?
I just love it when competitive players get boned at tournaments by losing to something unexpected. (Just the other day I was playing Dredge - one of the last times I'll be playing it for the aforementioned reasons - and I got Haunting Echoes'd out - giving my opponent a high-five in the process.) It's why I like it when something like Flying Men with an Unstable Mutation and Psionic Blast wins an Open and everyone just starts calling it a "troll," when really all it is is someone willing to go into a heavy-artillery crossfire with no level of certainty - yet still being armed with an incredible potent weapon and willing to take a hero's risk by staking their tournament life on something completely or moderately original in order to inject some life into a format that should already be capable of producing mind-blowing strategies.
Random anti-Brainstorm discard idea:
Anti-Brainstorm B
Sorcery
Target player draws two cards, then reveals their hand. You choose two nonland cards from it. That player discards those cards.
I would much prefer a one-shot Chains of Mephistopheles tacked onto an Instant to the card quoted above.
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I really quite enjoy your articles and must say keep it up.
But, not to sound too picky, the following can be also very dangerous:
This is why the Americans and their SCG net decking circus style "I want to play tier1 deck and can't build decks of my own, neither can I adopt or want to" supported by a massive whinefest has resulted in banning of Survival of the fittest. Truly, the main reason Wizards have banned this card is because of the massive outcry of the Americans - while the card was nevery really problematic in Europe.our, right and duty to let Wizards know what we want out of the game, which developments we enjoy and which we despise.
All I am saying is, if you want to give power to the people you have to recognize a lot of people are idiots, or just lazy douchebags, but they can be quite vocal.. Let them have a "voice in the senate" and say goodbye to Brainstorm, Led, Force of will and Wasteland not to mention Show and tell.
Ultimately, what legacy needs is more solid players and especially less whiners!
Last edited by Mr Miagi; 08-10-2012 at 02:48 PM.
Proximity and geographic location has absolutely little - if anything - to do with the inherent overpowered strengths of a cheap, permanent-based tutor that was able to hold a positive match-win percentage against every deck in the field - even beating out Storm/ANT at something like 58%.
A Survival of the Fittest in America is the same as a Survival of the Fittest in Antarctica; we just happened to crack how good it really was before any of you did, and I'm quite certain if left unscathed it would have found its way over and dominated the intercontinental metagame.
And I'm proud to be an American Legacy player. For the record.
Perhaps it would and perhaps even righfully so. The problem is Wizards listened to whiny bunch and made a hasty conclusion... and that is the danger of Wizards listening or taking guides from magic players... whiners tend to be the most vocal and if the outcry is loud enough (resonable or not) Wizards will be pressured to take actions..
It's almost like Wizards is trying to manage the format for the players, and if the competent players all identify a deck as ruining the format they'll eventually take action rather than listening to a few idiots that can't get past their status quo bias.
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Anyway. Disagree with the assessment of Tendrils decks' power level. The actual meat of the article is mostly fine, although I would say that the format could use more efficient threats- just not in fuckin' blue, thanksverymuch.
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What would impress me is if R+D figured out how to make nonblue colors as skill-intensive as blue. Green Sun's Zenith is an example of how that can be done, but there are broader options also. Just make other colors gain the same level of advantage when you really know what you are doing as stuff like Ponder (Brainstorm might be asking for too much) in an entirely different way. That is, gain advantages on par with library searching without the search.
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I mostly play EDH these days, so my feelings about cards are pretty influenced by its restrictions -- but this article strikes close to some of my complaints about that format.
I feel like one of the major reasons that blue is so common is its stack control -- counterspells, especially free ones, are inherently strong cards that support a variety of strategies. It'd be awesome if Wizards could spread out that control to some of the other colors; black already has discard, a sort of preemptive stack control, and red has its Misdirection lines -- but both suites could use some buffing. A cheap red Spelljack-style spell would be excellent, while a few aggressive creatures that support discard -- cards like Yixlid Jailer -- would make that particular strategy far more potent.
I feel like white's gotten very few such tools, but they're very potent -- Thalia and Aethersworn Canonist -- and those are a good blueprint for the other colors. I just wish we had a way of making them relevant in ways other than "strap it to a 2/2 body."
I also heartily agree that there's a lot of "I win" spells running around now. That can be OK, assuming that there are tools to disrupt the ramp-up to them (which there clearly are, since Show and Tell isn't currently ruling the universe from atop a pile of corpses). It's just that we've pushed the battle into the stage stage before the nuclear bomb gets dropped about as far as it can go, in my opinion. I think it's fair to say you have to reach a decisive play against combo decks very early. You don't have to necessarily get combo pilots to 0 life by turn 4, but you do have to deny them the ability to cast (or win with) their nuke by that point. If Legacy's fundamental turn ever got to 2, I think bans would be warranted -- and, personally, I think Legacy's fundamental turn is around 3, generally speaking. I feel like we're really close to a format where the die roll is an important part of the game, and printing even more powerful 6-mana-plus drops will only push us farther in that direction. (On the other hand, I don't know if Wizards could reasonably print something with more board presence than Emrakul or Grizzlebees.)
I do have one nitpick with the article, though -- I'm not a fan of the idea that spells should inherently kill faster than dudes. The window of response to spells is far narrower than the window for creatures, and creatures have far more answers built into the fabric of the game. I totally agree that creatures have been pushed a little too far -- I'm not a fan of the Delver, either -- but they were definitely lagging behind spells in terms of power and versatility for a long, long time.
Another way to tone down blue would be good hate cards that
a) are maindeckable and
b) not really compatible with blue strategies (I'm looking at you, MM), like Thalia
Aside from that, I fully agree with the color commitment. Remember the blue Goyf jokes? It's also sad how imbalanced multi-colored cards are.
E.g.gets goodies like Noble Hierach, Pridemage, KotR and Gaddock Teeg while
gets nothing but crap. The best it can offer is Terminate - really?
Why waste cardboard and try to print another hoser. We need cards like GSZ that help build new archetypes that are inherently strong against blue strategies.
I disagree strongly about the effectiveness of black discard;
with neither a blue-based card draw engine, nor Yawghmoth's will, the black spells are quite powerful.
@Karsten, excellent article as always. Delver should have been a red non-flyer. (flip when you top deck a lightning bolt).
Blue could then have all these crappy black tutors wizards insist printing in every expansion:p
That's easier said than done. What can the other colors do to increase deck consistency like blue?
Ok, black has card draw and tutors. Except they don't print the good stuff anymore.
Looting in red is nice, but still has a long way to go. Gamble effects are too risky and inconsistent to really increase consistency.
And how is white supposed to be getting better at library manipulation? More creature-based search spells like SFM, rebels and Ranger of Eos? Maybe a color-shifted Imperial Recruiter variant?
I assume this is directed at me. I don't get what you're trying to say by bringing up Vintage. We have at least one blue-based card draw engine in Legacy, Time Spiral, and I know from experience how futile discard is against Time Spiral. EDIT: Besides, my point is that Brainstorm is why discard is weak right now.
Last edited by Shawon; 08-11-2012 at 03:23 AM.
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