@Bryant:
@Bahamut:
@Emidlin:
Have you tried 11 lands, 4 moxen, 4 gitaxian configuration?
Which are your feelings regarding to this?
I say this because surprisingly, 11 lands seem to me ok in testing, I'm also thionking in go back to:
4 gemstone
3 City
2 Fetches
1 volcanic
1 U. sea.
@Regarding the boy who asked me related to the DDFT win:
that was an old era... I think I won 1 or 2 'Big' torunament with DDFT and stop playing it, playing perfectly the deck can be exhausting and more in an important tournament where nervous makes you less intelligent.
That archetype is old, it even runs street wraith... see Asheimer lysts for reference.
I'm not saying DDFT is better than TES, just are different decks, BUT there are things that can be extrapolated from one deck to another.
I still prefer playing TES design.
I haven't tested the deck with eleven lands, only twelve. I don't know if shaving two lands off of the previous lists is a good idea, it's going to create some very difficult mulligan scenarios. Although, it would gain a tiny bit of explosiveness, I don't believe it would be worth the consistency issues.Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
I tested a bit more with Reanimator and Sneak Show. I've decided that bringing in Inquisition against these decks isn't correct anymore due to the addition of Karakas. The updated strategies are in the opening post.
Part of me wonders if the Inquisitions and Thoughtseize in the sideboard should just become three Cabal Therapy. The synergies between four Probe and Empty the Warrens seem incredibly strong.
Also, if anyone knows of any articles, reports, links that I've missed for the opening post. Send me a PM.
ANT was easier to play before the addition of burning wish because it much more linear. Now it has decision trees to be made during the game.
You could be right about the Merfolk match up although TES plays Xantid Swarm which is a huge boon, but I would say the Sneak n Show matchup is in TES's favor. Winning quicker is usually the way to win that match up and TES does it better and more efficiently.
You can easily splash green in a UB or UBr ANT shell postboard with one trop and some xantid's. You also have petals to cast xantid. Against merfolk, you typically have time to play through their soft countermagic. Just don't have discard countered by soft counters and you'll be able to take their FoW and then go off next turn through soft counters probably or at the latest the turn after that. Merfolk can rarely win on turn 4 and if they are putting you on that fast of a clock, they probably lack countermagic. I don't know why everyone thinks merfolk is such a rough matchup, I'd rather be facing merfolk instead of counterbalance decks.
Why not just cut all the lands Pelikanudo? I mean really, 11 lands sounds exceptionally greedy in a deck that is already quite greedy and will lead to mulligans. I'm not even a fan of going down to 12 lands, as this deck runs silence and silence requires +1 mana on the combo turn. When you don't run enough lands it's hard to support silence and will lead to awkward board states where you cannot combo due to being unable to protect your combo with silence due to lacking sufficient ritual mana afterwards in hands where you have RoF and DR but you have just one land on board and only one petal or chrome mox in hand. Going down to 12 lands is greedy, 11 even more so. And if you want to run a deck without protection that wins as fast as possible I recommend the spanish inquisition (runs 2 lands) or belcher (runs 1 land) as those decks are machines that win on turn 1 quite often if the opponent lacks force of will.
ANT is the more stable combo deck that can consistently go off on turns 3-4 with protection quite easily. TES is the deck that sacrifices manabase stability for speed.
Also, how hard is it to cast burning wish? I think it's rather easy to resolve wish. You grab what you need with it every time whether thats pyroclasm, duress, PiF, IGG, etc. etc. it all depends on what resources you have available and if you don't know what resources you have available I recommend playing a simple deck like zoo where it is quite linear in terms of playstyle and easy to pilot.
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Currently Playing:
All flavors of storm combo
Played at a local tonight, went 3-1 not making the playoffs. I mulliganed once over four rounds, my loss was to Miracles. Where he top decked Counterbalance after a Duress in two straight games after I Emptied for 16 on the play game one. I sided out Empty then decided to bring in Tendrils, then opened it two games in a row (the one Mulligan). I beat two G/W decks, one being Maverick and RUG (He didnt want to play anymore :/).
Karakas would've been good games two or three if Maverick would've played anything relevant before I won. I did open it the third game but I also had a turn one.
Therapy out of the side was better than Inquisition.
Last edited by Bryant Cook; 08-17-2012 at 09:35 AM.
Rough break against miracle control but usually they can't beat that turn 1 play. Since you guys innovated EtW main I think therapy is the easy to go.
Played the 4 probe list tonight at the local tourney and went 4-0. Beat some durdly mono white control deck with scepter chant and other bs, beat rug, maverick and ranimator. The 12 lands didn't bother me at all. Won 2 rug and 1 maverick game with empty. The rug games weren't even close and the information probe gives in that MU is very important in deciding what lines to take to win.
I mulled 3 hands total out of the 10 games I played and they were loose hands with no land. 2 of the hands were terrible even with a land.
all in all the 12 lands seems perfectly fine and it doesn't seem less consistent with only 12 land and the probes make the deck more explosive. I'm really liking this version of TES and probably stick with it for a while before deciding to play a different version( I always switch between versions from week to week at local tourneys for testing purposes).
List same MD as opening post and 3 thoughtseize in board in place of therapy inquisitions. I also was playing 1 karakas and 1 deathmark in the 2nd karakas' spot.
Wasteland can't beat us if we play zero lands!
Follow me on Twitter @RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Maybe we can beat their wastelands with wastelands of our own!!!!!!!
As far as I'm aware, there's no precise mathematical argument for 13 lands in TES. As I recall, TES reached 13 lands when Bryant decided to cut 2x Simian Spirit Guide from the deck due to the 3cc manacast conflicting with Ad Nauseam. When determining the "correct" number of lands, we have to ask ourselves what that number of lands is suppose to achieve. If we're suppose to draw at least 1 land in our hand, then 11 lands is the "correct" number. If we're suppose to draw 1 land in our hand and one more land with a cantrip then X is the "correct" number of lands. So I guess we need to determine how many lands with X and try to play that many?
11 lands was the old standard for TES because it was the old standard for the Vintage Long decks, I don't think arguments like "if you're going to cut lands down to 11 you may as well cut every land from the deck" are really helpful. This isn't ANT, our deck is designed to win on T2 before the counter/top, hate bear or chalice at 1 hits the table.
As far as the number of Chrome Mox, I have no problem with 4 Chrome Moxes or 3 Chrome Moxes or even 2 Chrome Moxes, as far as I'm concerned it's the worst card in the deck and you either play 4 for the explosiveness (which I think is quite relevant playing a 6cc win condition in the MD and 4 free Peeks) or you play the minimum number to ensure that you'll draw an accelerant off of Diminishing Returns and Ad Nauseam without drawing it otherwise. Honestly, I'd cut every Chrome Mox in the deck for Simian Spirit Guide if the 3cc wasn't a detriment to Ad Nauseam, but Chrome Mox is still the homely girl that you take home at the end of the night absent any better options.
Hi,
I'm testing this UBR TES version so far:
Main 60
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Gemstone Mine (color fixer)
3x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion' s Eye Diamond
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
1x Preordain
4x Dark Ritual
4x Rite of Flame
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Burning Wish
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
4x Duress
3x Thoughtseize
Side 15
3x Dread of Night
2x Echoing Truth
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Pyroclasm
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Emtpy the Warrens
1x Meltdown
2x FLEXIBLE SLOTS (2x Extirpate, 2x Pyroblast, 1x Past in Flames + 1x Inquisition of Kozilek, this has been tested so far)
Nothing new, but a meta adapted TES. The idea behind the 3C choice is not for mana base consistency (sure it may help, but is not the main reason), but is that here in Barcelona (Spain) there are lots of CB-Top miracle decks, and I wanted to focus all my disruption in discard-like spells, hence, there was no reason to play white (nor green) and this led me to add some more fetchlands to maximize my set up cantrips.
I also do not wanted to play "do nothing cards", so Gitaxian Probe was, tested, and cut. And when chosing between IoK and Seize for main deck, the latter proved to be better simply because it can take the FoWs away.
I'm Playing Pyroclasm over Grapeshot because of Thalia being the hatebear of choice (if talking about maidecks). And I also decided to go with Pyroclasm over Virtue's Ruin simply for the increasing number of goblins that lately appeared.
I' ve chosen Meltdown over Spree because I no longer play Rainbow lands, so generating multiple red mana could be an issue. I felt Meltdown only worse against Blade (due to high cost of batterskull), but I can always discard the Skull away if I feel I need it.
The flexible slots, are not really "flexible" but, in fact undecided:
-Not sure if Past in flames is really needed (I haven't so far, but Ill give mroe time to see what I do).
-Extirpates are cream against Reanimator and OK agasint CB-Top.
-Pyroblasts are just quite good against CB-Top, and Ok against RUG (can kill Delver for extra time), and superb against Merfolks.
Greetings,
Iñaki.-
Spike-Johnny
This is pretty much all truth.
That last line makes me believe that you are secretly Zach Tartell.
Bryant,
Do you side in karakas vs. reanimator? My initial thought was no, since you're faster. But you have no real way of interacting with them, so if they jam an iona/Jin, it's just GG.
It's on the opening post, but yes - I do. I've began to change my sideboarding plan a bit due to Therapy over Inquisitions/Thoughtseize. I've been going -1 Ponder, -1 Probe for 2 Therapy instead of the suggested -2 Probe. In match-ups like Reanimator where you don't bring in Therapy I think it's right to board out two Probe and not the Ponder.
Hi,
I played the other day this list:
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Scalding Tarn (next change will be -1 = +1 city of brass)
1 Polluted Delta (next change will be -1 = +1 city of brass)
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Silence
3 Duress
1 Tendrils (Prefer this , in here there is too much e.explosives, and terminus)
1 Ad Nauseam
1 T.seize (next change will be -2 = +1 therapy)
2 Inquisition of Koc (next change will be -2 = +2 therapy)
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Karakas
2 Echoing Truth
1 Shattering Spree
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
Side 2 xantid 2 e.truth 2 inquisition 1 t.seize
I played vs:
- Goblins
- Rainbow control (This archetype is played a few in spain is RUGW with cunin and punishing)
- Team America with All the hate of the world.(T.seize, Pierce, surgicals, liliana, Hymns! Daze, wasteland...)
- DDFT
Some conclusions:
- Regarding DDFT match up. - Loose 1 - 2
Win first game, was easy, he did not landed senseis
Second I side in xantid and when playing it on 1st turn he next win on its 2nd, !!!!.
This mutch up depends on speedy, and TES can not afford long game, it is impossible, even the player I faced o course wasnt a bad player...
In here the 2 inquisition was awfull, I simply need to (take senseis OR chant effect) OR loose
- Regarding Goblins: Won 2-1
I faced in second and third M.B. Trap.
It is really easy to play around M.B.Trap if you know they have in hand, so in here Probe is gold, and again Kocilek is useless.
- Regarding Team America: Loose 1-2
First game was one of those games where you see how goodis TES , even playing 11 lands and discarding 3 cards and no playing land in 5 turns, you can win...
I really do not see how to side in here, I see that a lot fire vs fire is ok, I mean more discard, but it was very close.
likely the inquisition where ok, but simply prefer other cards,
- Rainbow: Loose 0-2
In here I see the error of the lands, not the number, it was the configuration I should have move to 4 city 4 gemstone 2 U.sea 1 volcanic. (played only 2 city) becuase althouthg in first game he had 2 Fow plus Forbid and pierce,
I reached that moment on which I had 2 silence , Fetch , Brainstorm and waiting for Rainbow and dont get it, I had even 4 lands in play, but didnt see double rainbow. I inmediatly thouth in swithcing to 12 lands but that wasn't correct as I had won because of that, in the long game he needed to land Jace, the next turn was the turn I should have won. with double silence.
The second game I was dissapointed and didn't really pay attention.
Again inquisition nonsense.
- So,
I recognice Id dint faced lot of other tiers, but seems to me ok with 11 lands 4 probes.
I will change the configuration and take out those inquisition.
I think that the deck has gaind speed and the 2 karakas 2 e.truth is enogh to handle maverick
The Team America match up I felt like I would have won (I won first but needed some better cards that inquisition. sure its difficlut but always you see the good odds..
So I've been thinking seriously in those slots.
Therapy is as Bryant says the best choice as we now play 4 probes.
But also 1 T.seize 2 pyroblast seem to me ok becasue this handle lot of troubles in my meta S.Tell, Miracle ,Rainbow, AND snapcasters, c.balances , vencilion, FoWs
I think I'm going to test 3 thereapys simply because it's likely the correct choice, but again and playing only 11 lands I don't think that probe will need to be sided out too much instead or even nothing instead of ponder (thing I prevously metioned.)
I really think the No fetched plan 4 probes is the correct choice.
Point I didn't mulliganed.
I'm not sure how good the 3shold matchup can be with all these counters, sure they're not playing stifle (don't know why) however 11 lands can be few, I've thoutgh and as silnces is glond in here sidng in 1 karakas...
Questions:
@Bryant
@Egosum paisano!
@Emidlin
@CheseBurguer
Sure you didnt want to try 11 lands?
Have you tried 2 pyroblast 1 t.seize in those slots.?
One thing I want to share is the feeling regarding Probes, I mean this is TES, they literally do nothing, I think the idea is how good probe is in TES? what is its goal, with therapy in side we found one, but is really neccessary in TES? I've been happy with 13 lands 8 disruption 2 A.N, except that time I lost to the revealed A.N... at 20! but, why we can not play simply 2, 1 for 2nd A.N and 1 as parity with 8th disruption? I'd like to know Bryant your feeling related to this last.
First things first man, I appreciate your input and playing T.E.S. and all. But try to run your posts through autocorrect and use the shift key. It’s getting more and more difficult to decipher your posts.
I’m playing Cabal Therapy in the sideboard due to four Gitaxian Probe main deck, it happens to be more useful than Inquisition because of the synergy between the two of the cards. My sideboarding strategy changed due to the addition of Cabal Therapy, not because of something you mentioned previously. It would be pointless to sideboard out multiple Probes just to sideboard in Cabal Therapy. That’s why the change to sideboard out a single Ponder happened. Not to create some point.
I don’t see how the increased number of Probes makes fetchlands any worse.
I have zero interest in going down to eleven lands, the less lands we have the more susceptible to Wasteland we become. I don’t like losing to Wasteland. Cutting fetchlands for gold lands only makes it worse.
I’ve played Pyroblast in the past. Pyroblast is only useful in blue match-ups which is the problem. I want a more versatile card that I can sideboard in during non-blue match-ups too - Maverick for example.
How do Probes not do anything? They give information, which is their primary role. Then they increase storm for Empty the Warrens and have great synergy with Cabal Therapy.
This is still T.E.S. and I will not be going back to two Ad Nauseam for the foreseeable future.
Glad to hear you changed your SB to include Cabal Therapy, after playing Cabal Therapy with 4 Gitaxian Probe I realized I never Burning Wished for Thought Seize blindly anyway and that I was always better off Burning Wishing for Cabal Therapy because I could either discard multiple counter spells or force the opponent to counter the Burning Wish altogether if he expected me to get Cabal Therapy.
I don't understand how 8 gold lands makes the deck more susceptible to land destruction than 3 fetch lands, unless you mean you're holding onto your fetch lands in order to protect yourself vs Wasteland and not casting your Duress and Ponder turn 1? I'm not certain I agree that 12 lands is the correct number of lands, but I do agree that 3 Chrome Mox is the correct number of Chrome Mox considering how often we SB it out and thus I ended up at 12 lands as well; 4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Mine, 1 Bloodstained Mire, 2 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic Island.
I don't know if I just have awful luck with 6 gold lands, but I find myself having to cast Silence off of a Lotus Petal far more often than I'd like to and getting into terrible situations where I have to make a decision to go for it right now where I could've waited if I had cast it from a gold land and held onto the Lotus Petal, it's really infuriating.
Not cracking fetch lands can win games against decks like Goblins and Maverick where a wasteland would really hurt but you need another land. These situations aren't that uncommon not to mention the shuffle effect from the lands has plenty of value between Brainstorms and Ponders. I don't have these color issues that people claim to have.
Yes, this is correct.
Those few times that you can't cast a Silence cause your gold lands and petals were hiding from you are vastly overshadowed by the usefulness of fetch lands in this deck.
Fetches turn brainstorm into awesomeness and give us Wasteland resistance. Stifle isn't being played right now either.
Playing that tournament,
I played vs Goblins, in the 3 games I needed to fetch to look for and Play duress or Ponder, thats it. Moxen really shines in here.
I think even plkaying 7 lalnds I wont loose vs goblins.
So argument vs Goblins is nonsense.
And maverick, even you will need to fetch soon, that's even contradictory.
For sure I want to face those maverick and goblins even playin 10 lands.
The real Problem i see is sometimes the need of mana for silence.
So playing 11 - old configuration - no fetches 8 gold is ok for me. sometimes I dont need lands to win just 1, but please, the correct one.
I mean how do you beat a hand with 2 FoWs, spierce and Forbid and next drawing Cunning - > Fluster,
I needed during 5 TURNS a Petal or a Gold. . Playing 11 lands, those fetches and holding the brainstorm the most time, didnt served me of nothing (3 silence in hand).
Please respond!
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