[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[Megadeus]

Honestly who cares who created what? It's obvious we will never all agree on the origins on the deck, and now two pages have been wasted bitching at each other about some stupid non sense. It's a magic deck. Stop wasting your time over this.

[bruizar]

@Megadeus

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[damionblackgear]

Please read above 2 replies to Koby and Randomgestures as they both apply to you as well.

I'll write you a PM instead of respond. Koby and RG, you're both going to be added as well since you were both called on as well, delete it if you want. Hope you're fine with that.

I'll just sum up the non history lesson part here. --> I don't think this is the thread for a combo based deck.

[Megadeus]

@Megadeus

Sent from your Samsung device

?

[Qweerios]

Now, I have not given any attention to the copyright war going on in this thread for the past few days simply because, well, it is pointless. What I did do, however, is test Bruizar's ideas to see how they work. Sadly, it doesn't turn out positive. Once I show my opponents how the deck functions, it is a piece of cake to disrupt and take appart.
It is a combo deck with no library manipulation, very little protection considering it is a turn 3-4 combo (quite inconsistently I might add) that gives your opponent a full turn to anwer and will fold to sweepers and/or removal. Post-board against any blue based deck with any form of GY hate is near impossible to win.

Overall, it is an interesting take on the Nic Fit archetype that could be more viable in the future given different cards. Intuition/Unburial makes for a nice NO/Prog alternative win condition in a otherwise slow and meticulous deck. Given the current Legacy card pool, I think that going for speed and a pure combo approach (because face it, this is what this deck is) is a mistake. 4 Deeds + Gigapede and Palinchron beatdown is a sad excuse for a backup plan.

On a more constructive note, try a singleton Exsanguinate in your deck to win on the spot. Coiling Oracle and Baleful Strix also act as cantrips/ramp/blockers and give you valuable time to set up your combo. They also work in a loop with Palinchron and Nightmare to allow you to draw your entire deck without Gitaxian Probe (-1 card to the combo). They also give you more bodies for Intent. Furthermore, even though Hymn fits the Explorer/Intent curve better, Thoughtseize is superior for obvious reasons when you are trying to win via a combo. Tutoring for a Meddling Mage may also be just as good if not better.

It pains me to say this so bluntly, but if so much "blood, sweat, and tears" were put into assembling this deck, it is poorly constructed and very much feels like a product of wishful thinking. Maverick, RUG Delver, Sneak Show, Reanimator, Miracle, and sometimes even Merfolk and Goblins completely walk over this deck pre and post board.

[Claymore]

I took GBw Rector to a tournament and got favorably match ups, ended up splitting first. I ran a single Viridian Emissary as backup to Explorer (all I could find) and had a single Gaddock Teeg main board. Teeg, while not always the friendliest with GSZ, actually does help us a lot since he stops Force of Will and we run enough mana to outstrip the soft counters that decks run. He also helps stop Jace and Elspeth, not to mention giving us a surprise stop to combo decks game 1.

Bant Control (Jace, KotR, Stoneforge) went to time and a draw for game 1 with him at 40+ life w/ Batterskull/stone forge and me at 18 looping a constant Thragtusk and Witness looping with Nightmare for Deed or Maelstrom Pulse. Thragtusk was essential for stabilizing my board. Teeg hilariously stopped an attempted Temporal Mastery miracle that would have won the game.

Other matches were generally inconsequential for development.

Semifinals I got matched against the Bant again but won this time, and Nightmare proved to be essential to these wins. Kokusho was never really required when I was throwing down Grave Titan, and generally Bant had Karakas anyway. Kokusho would have been key for massive life swings to finish the game against a stalemate board, but never got to that point. Sigarda was the key kill card in both games I won, coming out to kill a Jace and flying over a stalled ground. Grave got exiled whenever I had him out.

Viridian Emissary was surprisingly useful in game 3 as I awkwardly took the aggro roll against a slow board state, swinging with Pridemage, Emissary, and Explorer and served to pressure a Jace as well.

[Qweerios]

I believe that Kokusho and Yosei are complete crap for this deck. Sure they do cute things with Nightmare and Moat, but I would choose Hornet Queen over either of those in a heartbeat.

[KMS]

Well I have played at two tournaments with a combo built, a little different then the list Bruizar posted and man it is fun to play!
Im missing some cards in the list that were key for me.
I did play kokusho and karn, kokusho and woodfall primus, kan well it just karn. Woodfall primus and kokusho well right now there are just better solutions.

The hard to beat games for me we tempo trash and combo elves. But with bothe iona and engineered plaque in sb thats not a problem. Though still I think tempo trash can be to disruptive.. I did not have problems at all with the meta at that time. Reanimate, show and tell, maverick, goblins, merfolk, team america, mud builts, land and ANT, thought ANt was a trick shot since that deck os pure explosiveness and you have to disrupt turn 1. At least in my experiance.. At the GP I won from ANT, lost from delver and lost a match due to terroble unfortunate shuffelibg one time screwed the other flooded.. We rematched friendly and he dindt had a chanche and realised how luck he was and how unfortunate i was

I followed this thread only for the last week. I have talked with bruizar about missing essential cards in the list. And I am sure he will add them with in a future post.

For me my deck has always been, warp to mid late game, dark disrupt, combo. With a backupplan and I had as beaters the primus, kokusho, palinchron and ooze And witness plus unearth is a nice addition.

I have tested many many many cards for a really long time. The hardest part of the deck for me was the manabase.
I do believe the combo built is superior versus a more agressive aproach.

Cards that the deck doenst like are extirpate and stifle. No other card has been a pain to disrupt the deck, and you dont want to run in high tide=)

[ReinVos]

@ Qweerios

Then I'm not sure you've implemented Bruizar's ideas in a decklist that functions well if this is your analysis of the deck.
You claim there's no library manipulation. The guys I play with (and it's their ideas, I was just a sparring partner) had cards ranging from Brainstorm, Diabolic Intent, Intuition and Jace. This is top of the bill library manipulation.

The archetype this particular build belongs in is combo/control. The Intuitions don't automatically go for Unburial Rites, Gigapede and reanimate target. They can be used for dozens of combinations of targets. It's nice to win games quickly once you've established control and it's great to be able to have a card in your deck (Intuition) that does this.

Graveyard hate is a nuisance but unlike other graveyard based combo decks (Reanimator, Dredge) it has the control-type tools to knock out graveyard hate (Deed blows up stuff like Relics and Leylines and Therapy gets rid of sandbagged cards or stuff like Ravenous Trap/Macabre) before you set up your kill. It's much easier than it looks to play around graveyard hate. If the opponent tries to stop your ''combo'' by aggressively boarding in hate, it will slow their deck down as well. This plays right into the control plan, which makes it easier to naturally develop your board, get rid of the hate, and go from there.

Playing this deck as a combo deck is just plain silly. Very rarely you'll just flat out try to combo the opponent on turn three or four. It's better to take control of the game by attacking the hand, chump blocking for value and setting up a strong manabase, which makes Deed a powerful weapon. From there on your Intuitions and Witnesses become deadly weapons, which can be used to close the game once you've stabilized and have enough lands in play. So, in that sense this is very much a Nic Fit deck, it just operates differently once it gets to the point where you can get value out of your higher costed cards.

[Viridia]

I'm still just really interested in the decklist aswell as more explanation of the things you intend to do with it aswell as testing results, as i haven't seen any tournament results yet.

[Qweerios]

@ReinVos,

Perhaps you should try and read Bruizar's post where he reveals his intuition combos, his decklist, and how the deck works. I don't know what lists you and your friends play, but I know what lists the people that post in this thread play. I tested Bruizar's list because it was appealing, and attempted to improve it by adding Brainstorm and Jace (because those are not part of his list). The fact remains that the deck has only one main way to win the game, and it is via a GY dependant, removable, and counterable combo. The only discard is Cabal Therapy and there is no way to interact with the stack. Jace will never ultimate for the kill because 4X Deeds + Witnesses is not enough to guarantee that. Hell, even when you try and dedicate the entire deck to controling the board with Jace it fails because Nic Fit never touches the stack. The deck cannot pack enough control elements to be a dedicated control deck, and the combo isn't fast and resilient enough to be more reliable than say, a Grave Titan or a Sigarda. Also, the cards that make up the combo are sub-par while attempting to play the control game. Deed becomes a failsafe for silver bullets because the deck no longer operates on card exchanges, and that's a poor use of Deed if you ask me. You can always try to play the control game and grind your opponent out, but Gigapede will only go so far...

I think that the biggest flaw in the deck, is that it trades all of its favorable matchups in favor of improving the unfavorable ones to a point where they are more even. Traditional Nic Fit has aproximately a 90%+ win rate against Maverick and RUG (throw in DnT and other non-tribal aggro decks), and that is the only reason why it ever was a tier 1 deck. The advent of Thragtusk made the RUG, UR Delver, and Burn MUs nearly impossible to lose. With the more combo approach, those decks are now back in their comfort zone where they actually have tools to disrupt us and we have less to disrupt them. Miracle is now officialy nearly impossible to beat because they will passively ramp while the deck applies no pressure whatsoever and deny every single attempt at pressuring them because they will have complete control over the stack. Our control elements over the board when dilluted have no impact over a dedicated control deck that controls primarily the stack, and secondly the board... Yes, you can combo out another combo deck before they combo you, but if that represents the majority of your meta, by all means, play a different deck.

[H]

Sorry to break up the dispute about who invented what and all that, but I am new to Nic Fit and have a question.

Why Wickerbough Elder in some builds? Why not Viridian Shaman, or Acidic Slime? Just because it would be a 4/4 for 4?

[HoneyT]

Just to put this on record: Nicholas Fitticus was a great man.

Also @ElricTheWhiteWolf:

That's exactly why. He's a big body that can help close out a game and out of your Deed range most of the time.

[ReinVos]

Qweerios, you raise a good point that this deck can't interact with the stack, even though it's blue. And you actually gave the main reason why we found that Jace wasn't the best fit in this deck; it was difficult to protect him.

The combo finish started out with just Recurring Nightmare and Palinchron, simply getting to seven mana and then using the Recurring Nightmare to swap Witness/Explorer for Palinchron and then go infinite (infinite mana>infinite Witness>infinite Probe/Brainstorm>strip hand>sweep board>put every creature into play>pass turn). One of the earlier drafts had a Primal Command to put all the lands on top to REALLY clean the board and ensure the win. You see, a simple Intuition at enough mana would start the onslaught, and that's what made the deck so appealing. This is why Brainstorm or Diabolic Intent is needed, it raises the consistency of finding the Intuition to get going.

The deck was built to survive and get to seven mana, and then win the game. So it is a control deck at heart, with a combo finish. It's easy to try out lots of cool things (which of course isn't always right) but the main idea behind the blue Nic Fit deck is something that, in my opinion, is something that is worthwhile exploring (no pun intended).

The deck has great board control between Pernicous Deed and Eternal Witnesses/Explorers chumping all day long. You don't need to take over the board, you just need to survive until you can get the Recurring Nightmare engine going and it's curtains. The many chumpblockers and Deeds complimented the combo as they filled a crucial role in surviving. Deed isn't there to blow up silver bullets, it's there to not die (and sometimes to clear the way for combo time).

The Unburial Rites package was later added to have a nasty Intuition available to ''win'' out of nowhere with access to only four mana. It took up some valuable slots but turn four Iona backed up by some early Therapy action was often pretty damn good.

The deck isn't where it needs to be so I'm hesitant to post a decklist from the top of my head. The idea wasn't mine and although I've contributed to the discussion and testing of the deck, I'm not as well versed with lists as the guys who created it are. That said, I'll defend this deck with everything I got because I believe that with some work this could be viable.

More discard may be needed.

I'll continue brainstorming about some lists and try to come up with something. That will only help the discussion because more players can try it out and give their feedback.

[Claymore]

My tests with the posted Palin Fit seemed to show it has great merit and potential, but just like the other flavors there is yet to be an optimal list... Hence this thread and it's nearly 100 pages of discussion over a relatively short period, compared to several of the DBTs that hover around 50-80 and ask every once in a while for a deck list or mundane card choices.

I believe that Kokusho and Yosei are complete crap for this deck. Sure they do cute things with Nightmare and Moat, but I would choose Hornet Queen over either of those in a heartbeat.

Kokusho and Hornet Queen fill completely different roles for this deck. In my meta I have Enchantress and Lands, where the 7 mana swarm and everything else in here will do nothing (deed for enchantments herpderp). Likewise, Queen will moderately help against Sneak Attack and Maverick, where the dragon won't do much but be a speed bump. Running Kokusho for me is thus a need for additional tools in my toolbox,and I would say that you would alternate between Queen and Grave Titan for a board stabilizer/aggro swarm/Jace hunter.

Kokusho will also grant the deck massive life swings late game when you need to close the deal quickly in turns against board-crippled Batterskull decks at 50 life, since he can swing for 5 and then be cycled for 10-15 additional life per turn. All about different tools for specific tasks as opposed to solely "card A is always superior to card B"

[Qweerios]

Those scenarios are so rare. Deed, Lily, and IB pretty much singlehandedly take down Enchantress. Might as well pack a Gaea's Blessing for those times when your opponent tries to mill you to death. I don't like dedicating deck space for a 1/100 scenario. Games shouldnt get to the point where the only way to break a stalemate is with Kokusho/Nightmare (both singletons too), especially in a deck packing 3+ Deeds and X Pulses. I can think of way more scenarios (Moat or not) where a Hornet Queen is just as good offensively, defensively, with/without Nightmare loop, and at 5 virtual copies, it feels much more accessible. It doesn't get shut down by Karakas, or worse: StP.

If anything, Kokusho makes more sense with Volrath/Tower than with Recurring Nightmare. At least it becomes removal/karakas-proof and forfeiting your draw step shouldn't be an issue since this loop is supposed to be the be-all, end-all of the deck...

[sumbahdy]

I recently played BUG Nic Fit in a tournament and went 2-4 drop. My list is based on Qweerios' list with only 2 cards at most that i switched.

Rd 1: UW Blade w/ Vapor Snag 0-2
Rd 2: UWr Miracle 0-2
Rd 3: BG Reanimator 2-1
Rd 4: UWr Miracle ended in a draw but i gave it to him
Rd 5: Merfolk 2-0
Rd 6: Esper Blade ended in a draw also gave it to him

Some notes:
I find that i SB Gifts Ungiven almost in all of the control match-ups. Is this correct?
The deck functions well evwn without the gifts. Mostly plays like BG Rock with gifts acting as a late game insurance. I think it could be switched for MD Negate or Liliana maybe.
The Negate from the board really helps against control.
I boarded 2 Carpet of Flowers and it was insane.

I would love to play the deck again. Will do some testing again next time.

[Claymore]

The defensive measures can be addressed by the same argument of Deeds and Pulses, and throwing down 8 mana for defensive measures can be trouble. I enjoy Koku's life options, you like hornet's tokens. Whatevs.

[Kich867]

I think there's something to be said about the power of 5 flying deathtouch creatures and the theoretical life gain they give you while simultaneously removing creatures. Few decks handle a horde of creatures very well, most removal in legacy is 1-for-1, so when you stare them down with 5 flying deathtouch tokens you're essentially 5-for-1'ing them somehow.

On a less relevant note Nic Fit is something I'm looking at again. I got a pretty sweet job (one might call it a career now) and I'm reinvesting in magic. Though I don't believe what I intend to build could hardly be called Nic Fit, it involves the Explorer / Therapy engine and some concepts from it. It's probably closer to The Rock with Explorer/Therapy really. Except I guess it's really not because The Rock is more of a control deck, I dunno. I might make a new thread it doesn't seem to fit with either of the two archetypes.

[Megadeus]

The reason that Nic fit is so good with therapy and explorer is because it is designed to abuse the mana that it creates. It plays the best creatures and spells to abuse the mana. Anything else probably just becomes another version of Nic fit