Yeah. I probably didn't word it quite perfectly myself to be fair, but that was a little annoying. I figured he was just misunderstanding me, which was fine.Originally Posted by Star|Scream
@Arianrhod Caleb zinged you pretty good in the comments.
Well, if Durward actually starts posting again, I'm sure he'll want to reply directly. In the mean time, though, the short answer is because Nic Fit has trouble with combo traditionally. I've tended to put FoW in the board because it usually just isn't necessary maindeck, but also because the sideboard usually has a higher blue count that comes in with it, thereby making it viable. Adding Shardless Agent bumps the blue count just high enough (along with the full set of FoW) to run it main. You figure we have a strong matchup as an archetype against anything that's fighting fair, so you want to try to help the unfair matchup. They're usually going to be the first thing boarded out if you aren't playing vs combo, though.
The only real issue I have with FoW is a pretty heretical one. I'm unconvinced that FoW is ACTUALLY doing its job of keeping combo decks in check anymore. I do have thoughts and reasons for that declaration, but this isn't the place for them. Maybe I'll write it up and post it on my blog that I pay attention to once every few months.
The difference is that those are very narrow answers to ver specific situations. A deck interacting with it's Graveyard though? Most Legacy decks in some way interact with their graveyard or like in Mavericks case, at least benefit from their Graveyard.
I'm not trying to make anyone play the ooze, I'm just in the opinion that it is wrong to not run him as a GSZ target in the main. Graveyard hate is much more relevant than flying hate or combo hate. Enough that Durward was even playing 2 mainboard spellbombs. I know they cantrip, but there are a lot of things he could've run in those slots but he chose yard hate.
To help shore up the unfair matchups. And with all the 2 for 1s you cast, the drawback of FOW becomes much less as the games go on. Plus you can realistically hardcast it in this deck.
I start playing Rector build recently. But I don't own Moat and don't plan to buy it in the near future. So my list is:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
3 Academy Rector
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Grave Titan
1 Sun Titan
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Forest
3 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 1 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 1 Curse of Death's Hold
SB: 1 Stony Silence
Diabolic Intent was great as an additional discard outlet. Elspeth underperforms but I still didn't play against Miracles.
I want to discuss sideboard strategy (at least against most popular decks). My assumptions:
RUG:
+3 Carpets and may be +1 Chains of Mephistopheles
-1 Phyrexian Arena (RUG is fast) -2 Elspeth -1 Kokusho (too slow to cycle)
Maverick:
+1 Curse of Death's Hold
-1 Elspeth
Elves:
+1 Curse of Death's Hold +1 Humility
-1 Kokusho -1 Elspeth
Miracles:
+3 Carpet of Flowers +1 Memoricide +1 Cranial Extraction +2 Extirpate
-4 Veteran Explorer -1 Vindicate -2 Swords to Plowshares
ANT/TES:
+1 Cranial Extraction +1 Memoricide +1 Chains of Mephistopheles +1 Stony Silence +3 Extirpate +1 Stony Silence
-2 Swords to Plowshares -1 Vindicate -2 Elspeth -1 Faith's Fetters -1 Maelstrom Pulse -1 Kokusho
Show-and-Tell-decks:
+1 Humility +1 Cranial Extraction +1 Memoricide +3 Extirpate
-2 Swords to Plowshares -1 Maelstrom Pulse -2 Elspeth -1 Kokusho
Reanimator:
+1 Humility +1 Cranial Extraction +1 Memoricide +3 Extirpate +1 Ooze
-2 Swords to Plowshares -1 Maelstrom Pulse -2 Elspeth -1 Kokusho -1 Vindicate
High Tide:
+1 Chains of Mephistopheles +3 Extirpate +3 Carpet of Flowers +1 Cranial Extraction +1 Memoricide
-2 Swords to Plowshares -4 Veteran Explorer -2 Elspeth -1 Kokusho
Hmm... I think I never side in tutors and almost always side out Elspeths.
Does anyone have any advices on list, sideboard and overall strategy? My meta consists of Mavericks, Miracles, RUGs and rarely of Merfolks, Elves, Goblins and High Tide.
So...how is the best way to deal with Omniscience?
Hope and pray?
@Osmin, how have you done so far? You maybe be able to cut elspeths for something else. You seem to have a lot of 4,5,and 6 CmC things. If you are going to use those you may want a back up ramp engine of some kind.
As for Omniscience, I'd say your best bet would be to just run an anti combo gameplan of discard plus pressure. It's essentially just like any other SnT deck.
Also I dont think I would run less than 4 GSZ in any version other than the blue splash version. Even then, you are cutting the best card in the deck
Not so good. Only one 4-round tournament and I still learning not to make errors and misplays
1-1 vs Maverick
0-2 vs Elves
In first game I was able to Vindicate my Rector to find Deed, but didn't do it. In second game I played Deed and destroyed 13 elves but opp plays Caller of the Claw eot
0-1 vs RUG
Possibly 1-1 if I had more time. In first game he was very fast.
2-0 vs MonoGreen homebrew
I'm going. Waffling between UR Delver and Rector Fit w/o Moat. I suspect Delver is a better choice because I think last week's OmniTell deck w/ rectors is gonna result in more yard hate (and increased awareness of the intervening if clause on rector).
That said I may stick w/ rector fit for one reason: it is much more fun to play.
So I've started testing giftless fit and I was was looking for some feedback.
Here is the list.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
3 [UNH] Forest
3 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [R] Tropical Island
1 [A] Underground Sea
3 [R] Bayou
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
// Creatures
3 [PC2] Baleful Strix
1 [M13] Thragtusk
1 [M12] Grave Titan
2 [CMD] Eternal Witness
4 [CMD] Veteran Explorer
1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
2 [DIS] Coiling Oracle
1 [MBS] Consecrated Sphinx
1 [CHK] Keiga, the Tide Star
// Spells
2 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [M13] Negate
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 [HOP] Innocent Blood
SB: 3 [M13] Duress
My blue count including FOW is 16, which is low, however most games it can be hardcast, and the ramp/card advantage helps draw into blue. I wouldn't mind upping it a bit.
Hands with both coiling oracle and Baleful strix can be awkward, and are the only real strain on the manabase I can tell. I think I may need one more land, but what to cut?
I sometimes feel clogged. Hands like pulse, deed, force, sphinx with no ramp are horrible. It feels like there's a gap missing between the 1-2/1's and the fatties. Perhaps Thrun in the main is needed or another ooze like Caleb suggests?
The sphinx is great. 2 cards on their turn vs ANY deck is great.
@Starscream: Don't forget you could opt to run 3 Force of Will like Esperblade, and perhaps sideboard in the 4th against combo.
Personally, I don't think Force of Will is the right card. Pitching Balefulstrix or Shardless Agent is more like a 3 for 1 than a 2 for 1.
I'm pretty big on Envelop myself. It's more narrow, but it counters Show and Tell, Burning Wish and Entreat the Angels (unless you're staring at a counterbalance lock).
I have recently done some testing and ran a gauntlet against Shardless Fit with Counterbalance(this deck drowns in CA) and have concluded that blue was probably the natural evolution of Nic Fit.
Moving away from black to concentrate on blue is extremely beneficial for the combo and control deck while reducing the black investment yields minimal drawback on the aggro matchup.
In most cases:
-Jace > Liliana
-Brainstorm > Innocent Blood
Force of Will will never be viable in this deck until they start printing good green and blue creatures that are both GSZ-able and pitch-able to FoW.
Here is the Gifts Fit list I have brewed in an attempt to become more blue centric:
Creatures (13)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Hornet Queen
1 Grave Titan
1 Vendilion Clique / Consecrated Sphinx / Sphinx of Uthuun / Thrun, the Last Troll
Spells (24)
2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (23)
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
3 Island
1 Swamp
Sideboard (15)
4 Negate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Selkie Hedge-Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse / Jace, the Mind Sculptor / Wasteland
I replaced Primeval Titan with Hornet Queen because she is as good against SnT, can be used defensively (or as a preemptive measure against Entreat), harder to remove, and therefore, is more threatening.
The flex spots are buging me (pun intended)... In theory, Clique should act as my Thrun because I pack Karakas. In practice, however, I don't know yet. I really enjoy Clique in general as a card as a response to SnT, Miracles, and SFM activations. It is extremely versatile.
Thrun is my default spot because a shrouded beater is always something you can fall back on.
I am not yet sold on the Sphinxes (Consecrated or Uthuun) but they are certainly appealing considering that my threat count is low. For my defense, I do pack Gifts and the Volrath Tower combo which have very powerful synergy with Witness, Thragtusk, Hornet Queen, and Grave Titan, giving me access to my few beaters countless times. Exile removal or definitely an issue but I can usually ride the tokens generated to victory. I also have Jace ultimate now in very late-game/last resort scenarios. I think I would favor Consecrated over Uthuun because of SnT + Grisselbrand, otherwise, I think the immediate Fact or Fiction effect combined with the slightly bigger body makes the 7 mana investment well worth it over Consecrated.
An idea I have been tweaking with against Miracle is a transformational SB where I take out 4 Therapies, 4 Explorers, 1-2 creatures in favor of 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Negates, and 1-2 Cliques. The therapy/explorer interaction against Miracle control is definitely a losing bargain that we can do without.
In other news, I will be attending the Standard/Legacy CMT in Toronto this weekend. I intend to play either this list or my regular BuG Gifts list.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
@Qweerios:
This is going more and more into the direction of the lists we were playing. I am not going to bore you with our findings concerning some of the cards (mostly coiling oracle/Jace). We ended up cutting them but I can see how you would want to try it for now, and it's probably better to evaluate it in your own meta. Regardless of the discussion/personal preference of Gifts or Intuition, I think you are on the right path here saying that blue is the natural evolution of the deck. Brainstorm does a lot for this deck, as it allows you to dump uncastable cards and exchange them for value. The thinning of fetch and explorers also help increase the value of Brainstorm, digging you into more business. That said, I urge you to try out Gitaxian Probe as well when you have the chance. Between Probe and Clique, you should be a Cabal Therapy / Meddling Mage (should you opt to splash white) master.
Hello guys
Haven't been nic fit for quite some time (haven't been playing at all actually) and I went through the 10 pages or so and seems like the Blue version and GBw with academy rector is where you want to be now. Unfortunately I don't have money to buy jace/intution/tropical/moat etc so those options are not for me.
There's a tournament incoming in 3 weeks, whereas first place gets qualified for another tournament which has some really nice prices. I am going to play a classic GB version and this is how my list looks like
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
2 Eternal Witness
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Skeletal Scrying
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Karn Liberated
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Forest
5 Swamp
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
SD
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Choke
2 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
1 Virtue's Ruin
4 Duress
1 Damnation
What I am worried about is
- UR Delver or other burn decks
- Combo decks (storm, belcher, cephalid breakfast)
- U/W Miracle control or BUG Control
Would appreciate if I could get some advices how to play against these decks
Question: Is a one off Omniscience an option in a rector deck?
It seems a great tutortarget and especially in the GBw version they do not see it coming. Of course it can be a dead card but Top will help a lot. Maybe a bit tricky with Phyrexian Arena?
Currently Playing: Scapefit , Shardless BUG, Team America,
I have thought about it, but since we have no way to put it back into the library and no cantrips to try to draw into action and nothing like the petals of insight win con I rejected the idea.
@litencat looks pretty stock. I would personally drop a prime Titan for a second Grave Titan, and deranged Hermit for a Thragtusk. Playing against burn you just have to minimize the early damage, because once you can get a finks or Thragtusk down you win.
@Qweerios -- for as good as Sigarda is for white versions, have you thought about [cards]Simic Sky Swallower[/b] for a wincon? It's pricey, but at the point at which you're willing to pull the trigger and run Hornet Queen, I think you should be on-board with SSS. It's huge, it's got shroud, evasion, and it tramples over Lingering Souls or Delvers. Seems like it's pretty much everything you want.
Despite not being GSZ-able, I feel like blue versions really should be running Baleful Strix. The fact that it's got deathtouch is just enormous...it doesn't -seem- like it's that impressive, but it's much better in play than one would expect. Space is obviously a concern, though.
I'm starting to have a heretical thought. I'll post more if it checks out....not going to clog the thread if it ends up being bad.
@Cire_DK -- Slikwilly nailed it in one. I've thought about it, and dismissed it every time.
@Litenkatt -- You definitely want some TUSK action in there somewhere. I don't know GB well enough to make comments on what to cut, but Not running Thragtusk in this deck feels sinful. Card is way too good for us.
Also, I wouldn't necessary say that our discussion is indicative of anything regarding the general strength and weakness of the different versions. It's just that the past number of pages, we've been talking about Rector and Gifts a lot. I definitely wouldn't take that to mean that the G/B, Scapewish, or any other version is less viable at the moment.
@Slikwilly -- Ordinarily I'd say you're right RE ShowRectorOmni or whatever the fuck they're calling it. However, I don't think that it's actually sunk in that it could be a real deck yet. From what I've heard, a lot of people are thinking it's just a rogue brew that won't have any actual impact on the format. I think that if you want to play Rector at this week's SCG, you're probably safe to do so. If ShowRectorOmni takes off, then it'll definitely be a good idea to let that lay low for a while. I just don't see it taking off over the dedicated OmniTell deck, frankly. Rector seems largely unnecessary in the archetype. What does your Rector list look like? If you do decide to run it, let's get it as looked over as we can.
@Osmin -- I'd definitely cut the Elspeths in a heartbeat. They're only good in the Moat versions where you need the ability to give shit wings. No Moat, no Elspeth, no problem. You should definitely put in at least one Sakura-Tribe Elder, and then I'm not sure what you want beyond that. SKE has been a huge help not just as another source of ramp (and one that works vs Leyline of the Void), but also because it puts a creature in the graveyard early, which can sometimes be an issue if you naturally draw Nightmare in the early.
@StarScream -- I feel like Keiga isn't very good at all, and I think that you want a 2nd Jace over a 1-of Liliana, especially in a Gifts-less version. You probably want SSS as a big fatty boomboom to close games, and I'd recommend a Fact or Fiction or two as backup card advantage engines. 3 Forces is probably correct, since the deck appears to have the same tempo as Esperblade overall. You can board Flusterstorms for the combo matchups....3 Forces means you can mull to them vs Belcher or other combo, and not be as dependent on them. Your blue cards are all good enough that you only want to Force when it's critical, and you never want them vs fair decks unless you can hardcast.
More Oracles will help with that clogging sensation. It helps that Coiling Oracle is one of the most fun cards to cast in the entire game (not fun as in really really good [though it is]....fun as in actually fun).
Simic Sky Swallower really does nothing. Goyf can beat just as hard for 1G. Just because you run blue doesn't mean the criteria should be:
*too expensive to cast in the first 4 turns
*pitches to fow
*GSZ'able
Who cares if Goyf doesn't have shroud? Come on guys, this is legacy. Please don't tell me SSS is better than Goyf, cause it's not true. A 4 turn clock for 7 mana that gets raced by goyf or knight or ooze and does not win you the game or at least saves you from losing the game is not good enough. What's next? Hardcast Krosan Cloudscraper?
I'm going to alter your criteria a little:
Too expensive to cast in the first 4 turns -> High enough of a CMC that it doesn't die to Deed.
I dislike overly expensive things, but I like things that don't die to our own Deeds when we sweep the board. This is one reason I really, really hate Hornet Queen. If you need to crack a Deed, you're left with a 2/2 Flying Deathtouch FOR SEVEN.
Having some sort of evasion and being GSZable are both pluses....I think that pitching to FoW isn't a bad thing, but it's not necessary for a bomb either.
Consider the role that Qweerios wants. He wants to win the game once he's stabilized. 2/1 beatdown won't get there very often. ConSphinx is okay, but it's very likely going to die immediately because it provides ludicrous advantage. That's fine -- you'll usually draw at least 2 cards off of it, and scare Griselbrand decks away from doing their strongest play (drawing 14). But it doesn't have protection, and it gets chumped all day.
IMO, expensive CMC wincons in -any- Nic Fit list should fit most of the following criteria:
-) Enters or leaves play trigger, or powerful activated ability that does not require tapping (does something)
-) Has protection of some sort
-) Has a high CMC so it doesn't die to Deed (rules out Avenger of Zendikar as well)
-) Has evasion of some kind
-) Being green is a plus
-) Synergizes overall with the rest of the specific list
Obviously a lot of the six-drops we tend to run fail a lot of these. Sun Titan, for example, has a broken enters trigger, a high CMC, tons of synergy, and evasion if Deed is around (blow deed while holding priority in the declare attacks step). It's not green, and it doesn't have protection at all. SunnyT is one of the better options, but it doesn't fill all the criteria.
Let's look at SSS:
-) No trigger
-) All of the protection
-) High CMC
-) Has evasion (twice over)
-) Is green
-) Has synergy, kind of.
The reason I say it has some synergy is because it fills a role that Qweerios's deck appears to need. His deck needs a shroudy evasion critter that brings big beats. I'm not saying that SSS is better than Goyf...that's silly. What I am saying, is that SSS is better than Goyf in the role Qweerios needs filled. Obviously not having a trigger is a big deal, and the fact that it costs 7 is also a big deal.
If it was an option, I'd tell Qweerios to run Sigarda in a heartbeat. She's tons better than SSS, I fully grant. But he's not in white (let alone double white). His options are more limited. I'm not even on-board that he wants a 7-drop in the first place.
But, if he's willing to run Hornet Queen, there is no reason not to run SSS.
Sure it loses the race to Goyf/Knight/Ooze. But they also lose the race to Pernicious Deed. And SSS will just sit there turning sideways every turn, and there isn't a goddamn thing that your opponent can do about it.
Can you elaborate more on this? Was it close to Caleb's deck from the article?
Also I have to agree about Baleful Strix. Obv early game Oracle is the better 2 drop, but once you have a few lands out the strix really helps bridge the gap before you can land your fatties. It also draws out removal, unlike oracle, making it a cantripping duress for UB
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
