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[bruizar]

On the topic of Vraska, this card is really not worth the troubles. It's a big trap so trade them away to the standard folks that can use him.



Let's analyze.

When the +1 is active, you will never attack him. Why? He is ramping to his ultimate. This means he is trying to get 3 creatures, that you have to remove. Just let him ramp and block it with the creature that would have otherwise died to Vraska.

Also, when are you going to attack into Vraska with his +1 active? with a 2/2? Nah, that's not a good idea.

3/3? Well, I rather just pressure my opponent's life total so Vraska has to spend 3 loyalty to kill my 3/3.

4/4? Well, if the +1 is active, I'm just running par on loyalty (4 damage versus the +1 and -3)

5/5? Well yeah, now we're talking. But do we rather have 5 damage to the dome AND force him to spend his -3 loyalty? Or do you want to just suicide your 5/5 clock against this 5 mana planeswalker.

The problem is that it costs 7 freaking loyalty to ult. A single lightning bolt puts Vraska out of contention because the loyalty drops so hard and you spend so long doing absolutely nothing to ramp it. This isn't Gideon that can force an opponent to attack into Gideon.

This card has really cool abilities but can too easily be ignored. 3 non-evasive, non-hexproof creatures on turn infinite really don't make this card good enough.

The pros? It's in the same colors as Pernicious Deed and some good synergy there. It can deal with Planeswalkers (But hey, Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse and Dreadbore can too! Doesn't mean you should run it), and it protects itself like a king (or queen)!

What's not to like? Well, there is hardly any board impact except for a slow, 1 time vindicate.

[Fizzeler]

If Vraska cost 4 and had 4 starting loyalty I'd be less on the fence. And if I were a designer those tokens would have deathtouch. I mean, they are killing a PLAYER. Why can't they kill a bear?

As for Legacy use: Veteran Explorer had become a real thing recently, so I can see her used in tandem with it because you'll be more likely to hit 5 mana in a normal game. I think this card is a card played for a while (6-12 months) in a few decks, but abandoned for other options.

Vraska seems good in Nic Fit, she removes problem creatures, her plus protects her and combined with Deed she can really hose people

[catmint]

Well bruizar.... The decks that play vraska gain control first and then play vraska. After that Vraska will help them to remain in control or to kill the opponent. Also the +1 of Lialiana does nothing if the opponent is hellbent (and sometimes hurts you)... still people tick up liliana because 2 of their counters are worth a card. In this case 3 counters are worth a much much better card.

Also "does nothing" is a strong word... Liliana +1 - in response snapcaster mage/vendilion clique. Vraska +1... flash in what you want... The "anti-creature effect only as a sorcery drawback" is not there.

You should also keep in mind that lingering souls is a big Problem for Walkers these days. Not so much for Vraska...

And if everything goes as planned and Vraska kills all the batterskulls, tokens, planeswalkers,... while the game progresses there is not a lot that stops 3 1/1 "I kill you tokens" on an empty board.

My guess: it is the first 5cc walker that will see play. Especially because 5 is considered cheap for a deck like Nic Fit and she can beautifuly join a threesome with Jace and Liliana.

[Offler]

When I compare this planeswalker to those 1 or 2 years ago... then this one seems to me extremely powerful.

[Barook]

The tokens have deathtouch.

Nope.

[joven]

Is Vraska not just another Lux Cannon destroying a permanent every fourth turn?
Her advantages are that she comes into play charged and offers an ultimate that might usually win the game. Ok, and she is a bit harder to get rid off. On the other hand she is at higher CC and BG. And she can't destroy lands.

Slaughter Games
Thought Hemorrhage
Cranial Extraction

Yeah R&D is really creative in terms of red and Black cards. Again only overcosted & weak enchantments/spells and bad creatures in addition to a plain uninspired creature-only-keyword to ensure nothing fancy happens with the mana acceleration in those colors (any rituals)

You forgot Memoricide! :D

It just feels like R&D either can't design proper R/B cards or they don't even care.

It seems to me that no one in R&D likes those colors. It could be as simple as that.
R&D likes Blue and of course the creature-and-mana color Green. Red and Black are just necessary evil to them so to speak. :D

[kiblast]

Well bruizar.... The decks that play vraska gain control first and then play Vraska. After that Vraska will help them to remain in control or to kill the opponent. Also the +1 of Lialiana does nothing if the opponent is hellbent (and sometimes hurts you)... still people tick up liliana because 2 of their counters are worth a card. In this case 3 counters are worth a much much better card.

Also "does nothing" is a strong word... Liliana +1 - in response snapcaster mage/vendilion clique. Vraska +1... flash in what you want... The "anti-creature effect only as a sorcery drawback" is not there.

You should also keep in mind that lingering souls is a big Problem for Walkers these days. Not so much for Vraska...

And if everything goes as planned and Vraska kills all the batterskulls, tokens, planeswalkers,... while the game progresses there is not a lot that stops 3 1/1 "I kill you tokens" on an empty board.

My guess: it is the first 5cc walker that will see play. Especially because 5 is considered cheap for a deck like Nic Fit and she can beautifuly join a threesome with Jace and Liliana.

Lingering Souls a problem for Walkers? Considering that the only decks which play Walkers successfully, BUG control and UW control/ Countertop play things like Pernicious deed, EE and Terminus, in addition to 4-5 spot removals md,I wouldn't say that Souls is much of a big deal, unless seen in more than 2 copies. I mean, surely you need to deal with the tokens, but it's not that hard...
Honestly I'd rather run Liliana Vess than Vraska in BUG control. Don't know about Nic Fit, but I guess that deck has no problem in dealing with permanents considering that it plays 2-3 Maelstrom Pulse, 1-2 Witness and 4 GSZ to find them. And it plays Cabal Therapy and different types of pointed discard. At the same time it's very good at dealing with creatures because of Deeds, spot Removals, Damnation, etc. So unless you want to be the techy guy playing a 1of of a strange Planeswalker just for fun, you'd better run something else since Vraska doesn't add anything relevant to the deck. In BUG / Landeed there is no space for such a bad PW, you already play 4 JTMS and 2 Liliana...
I'm fully with Bruizar on this.

Ps: GL with resolving your cc5 spell that doesn't win the game on the spot when Goblins is a DTB, Thresh is a DTB and Merfolk is coming back. No seriously good luck!

[catmint]

Lux cannon comes into play and is doing nothing for 3 turns, while Vriska has an immediate impact. And how does lux cannon kill your opponent?
you are probably trolling anyway right?

Edit: @Kiblast.
As you say: Lingering Souls has to be dealt with by the different options these powerful control decks have. Vriska deals mostly by themselves with souls.
Just because control decks already have very good ways of dealing with permanents, does not mean that it could not use more. The decks you need to deal with are also constantly getting better tools (Krenko, Thalia, new Lord of Atlantis - just to name a view). I would also not underestimate the utility of "non land-vindicate". These days you see BG decks running maelstrom pulse to deal with all kinds of stuff in the late game.

I might be overestimating Vraska's impact on legacy (anyway the decks that could use her are not exaclty very popular right now), but calling her a bad walker is an insult to her. With Liliana Vess you can vampiric tutor for the deed and then get her killed in the next turn. She has no real means to defend herself and thus does not make the cut in my opinion. Also concerning wincondition Vraska is pretty unique and very powerful! It even says "your opponent looses the game" on the card.

[Barook]

It seems to me that no one in R&D likes those colors. It could be as simple as that.
R&D likes Blue and of course the creature-and-mana color Green. Red and Black are just necessary evil to them so to speak. :D

Might be true in these days where Red is simply "that funny color with direct damage (and a bit of artifact destruction)".

One thing I noticed is that Red and Black didn't catch up in the creature power creep. Especially Black had nice creatures with a drawback in the past. Remember when Carnophage was a creature ahead of the power curve? Nowadays, it would need to be a 3/3 to compete. Same goes with other creatures like Phyrexian Negator.

What black creatures are nowadays playable without being fringe cases? Bob and Tombstalker? (Griselbrand isn't black since it's CC is normally /)

[kiblast]

Ok, let's analyze the immediate impact of Vraska:

If you are behind on board position:
-2 and let's hope that a turn 5 Maesltrom Pulse subject to Stifle will help me somehow ( HINT: It won't)
or +1 and opponent simply goes to the dome and you lose anyway.

If you are ahead:
+1 Useless ability that doesn't help you sealing the game.For reference, see Jace's Fateseal and Elspeth built-in token and beatdown generator.
-2 Maybe this cc5 Malestrom Pulse will put you even more ahead, but then you need 2 turns more to win with a PW that doesn't protect itself nor it puts opponent on a clock.
-7 Cool finisher, but weak to spot removal+ Snapcaster Mage and to mass removal.

[catmint]

Ok, let's analyze the immediate impact of Vraska:

If you are behind on board position:
-2 and let's hope that a turn 5 Maesltrom Pulse subject to Stifle will help me somehow ( HINT: It won't)
or +1 and opponent simply goes to the dome and you lose anyway.

Yeah and Jace is also such a bad plaeswalker. Turn 4, unsummon subject you stifle and with a low life total the opponent goes to the dome and you die. As discussed control decks try to get ahead on board first and then play a walker. Her immediate impact on the board is more powerful and versatile than Jace's, Lilianas and Elspeths. Just compare the spells: diabolic edict, "pseudo maelstorm pulse", unsommon, or whatever spell puts a 1/1 soldier into play.

If you are ahead:
+1 Useless ability that doesn't help you sealing the game.For reference, see Jace's Fateseal and Elspeth built-in token and beatdown generator.
-2 Maybe this cc5 Malestrom Pulse will put you even more ahead, but then you need 2 turns more to win with a PW that doesn't protect itself nor it puts opponent on a clock.
-7 Cool finisher, but weak to spot removal+ Snapcaster Mage and to mass removal.

Jaces +1 is much better of controlling the game, but you trade that off for a much faster kill and a much more versatile -3 dealing with a lot of the things the opponent can topdeck. And how can you say a PW that doesn't protect itself... Vraska has "protect myself" written all over her. Just think about what the best topdecks in the control mirror and how she will handle them: Stoneforge Mystic, Lingering Souls, Batterskull, "random non hexproof" "random hexproof creature with power < 5", OTHER PLAINSWALKERS.

[Aggro_zombies]

I agree with kiblast that Vraska isn't Legacy-playable. Jace is already a good finisher for control, and if you want to kill them faster, Elspeth is right behind him. Hell, Gideon has the same price tag, actually does something when you're behind, is probably a three-turn clock (same as Vraska), and isn't playable.

When you're behind, Vraska's +1 is a complete blank. It incentivizes the opponent to make you even more behind by attacking you instead of her. That's terrible.

You can -3 her, though. Then you paid five mana for a Maelstrom Pulse + distracting an attacker for a turn, and Pulse is already weak at three mana.

When you ultimate her (two turns after casting her), you still have to keep the Assassins alive for a turn, then make sure they connect. Oh, and you can't use Deed to clear out blockers once you have Assassins. Also, you might want some counters in hand, in case they have removal or Stifle.

The fact that Vraska's +1 does actual nothing, for a five-mana price tag, makes her not good enough for this format. What kind of serious Legacy control deck wants to run a durdle five mana planeswalker when there are already plenty of better ones? Don't be distracted by her ultimate: she's not made for this format.

[bruizar]

if the +1 did anything in addition to protecting herself, the card would be much more playable. Right now you don't even want to -3 with her everytime, because you will just lose Vraska in the process. But her +1 protection does nothing. Even a simple look at target players hand, or a gain 2 life would have been great (compared to nothing). A miniscule impact on the game while ALSO protecting herself would have come a long way in the design of the card.

Let's look at Jace's unsummon. It requires your opponent to REINVEST mana and summoning sickness while at the same time, protecting Jace from dying.

Varska is a durdlewalker and I advice everybody to not spend money on her if your plan is to play legacy with her.

[Amon Amarth]

I think Vraska is pretty freaking awesome. To make up for her weakness against aggro swarm decks she is the same color as Pernicious Deed. If her +1 "does nothing" then you win the game. If they can't deal with her then they likely just lose to her ultimate.

[bruizar]

If her +1 "does nothing" then you win the game.

Please explain.

[bondfan]

I feel in Nic-Fit, answers to Jace are always good. The +1 ability isn't very live against decks like Miracles but exiling Jace then killing their germ token should pull you back into the game.

[catmint]

I agree with kiblast that Vraska isn't Legacy-playable. Jace is already a good finisher for control, and if you want to kill them faster, Elspeth is right behind him. Hell, Gideon has the same price tag, actually does something when you're behind, is probably a three-turn clock (same as Vraska), and isn't playable.

Both Plainsalkers you mentioned are whited. Not exaclty a color BUG control can use. Gideon is also a powerful walker, but not really needed in the control decks we know. BUG on the other hand has a gap in planeswalker based winconditions which Vraska fills in while supporting the overall "board control" strategy.

When you're behind, Vraska's +1 is a complete blank. It incentivizes the opponent to make you even more behind by attacking you instead of her. That's terrible.

You can -3 her, though. Then you paid five mana for a Maelstrom Pulse + distracting an attacker for a turn, and Pulse is already weak at three mana.

If you evaluate a new walker this way, you have to do the same thing with Jace. When you are behind you can unsommon/brainstorm for 4 mana loosing Jace in the process (play a very overcosted spell) or you can fateseal (and get little value compared to "no value" out of vraskas +1), but still the opponent can attack you instead of him to fall even more behind.

Now you would argue against that by saying "Jace can then brainstorm to put back Terminus to wipe the board" and that is correct. But in the same way BUG will play a deed before to make her stick. What I want to say is you cannot evaluate a walker only on it's abilities, but you have to take into account which colors & decks it will be played and how good it fits this decks strategy.

When you ultimate her (two turns after casting her), you still have to keep the Assassins alive for a turn, then make sure they connect. Oh, and you can't use Deed to clear out blockers once you have Assassins. Also, you might want some counters in hand, in case they have removal or Stifle.

The fact that Vraska's +1 does actual nothing, for a five-mana price tag, makes her not good enough for this format. What kind of serious Legacy control deck wants to run a durdle five mana planeswalker when there are already plenty of better ones? Don't be distracted by her ultimate: she's not made for this format.

Not beeing able to deed ones the assasins are in play is a bad antisynergy that has to be considered. Sure you should not just cash in your walker for some tokens if you cannot protect them. But you should not be in a hurry since I cannot think of a lot the opponent can do to kill you once you are in control with her.

I also don't agree that her +1 is a complete blank. Look, if they are not attacking her you just pile up some maelstrom pulses or gain some scary tokens if applicable. But the +1 is very powerful versus snapcaster, vendilion clique and lingering souls. Not exactly cards played in strategys where your life total is attacked very heavily, but popular cards which are pretty good vs. plainswalkers.

[Star|Scream]

Please explain.

If her +1 isn't doing anything, (i.e. being left unchecked), you will be able to ultimate and kill the opponent.

If the +1 is doing something, (i.e. protecting herself by being a deterrent against attacking into her), you will be able to ultimate and kill the opponent.

Instead of comparing her to Jace, you need to look at her as a pulse plus a healing salve, that if unanswered can also win the game.

[Nihil Credo]

re: Vraska: I think the biggest problem with her is that her ultimate gets telegraphed three turns ahead at the bare minimum, giving your opponent quite a bit of time to prepare removal, blockers, or whatever (if their deck lets you ultimate in three turns they probably have a lot of digging, and viceversa if not). For five mana, it might be more reliable to bend the manabase to support Garruk Primal Hunter's mana cost than to bend the creature/removal suite to support Vraska's first and third abilities.

It seems to me that no one in R&D likes those colors. It could be as simple as that.
R&D likes Blue and of course the creature-and-mana color Green. Red and Black are just necessary evil to them so to speak. :D

Or that players like them too, unfortunately. MaRo posted this on a Tumblr answer:

We asked the players to self-identify their guilds on the planeswalker points site. Here’s the top four results:
1. Izzet
2. Azorius
3. Dimir
4. Simic
I think it’s safe to say that a lot of Magic players identify with blue.

Hardly surprising that nerds would favour the nerd colour, but still that's a bit depressing.

[Koby]

Ya it's a bogus "market research" example. More akin to the chicken & the egg.

R&D makes Blue good stuff for years.
R&D asks players, "o hai guys, you can haz guilds?"
Everyone picks Blue.
R&D is reinforced that Blue is indeed the nutter butters, continues to make awesome Blue cards.

Let's try another example, with an audience of American sport spectators:
"What's your favorite sport?"
A: American football
B: Basketball
C: Baseball
D: Real football
E: Figure skating.

Looks like it would be overwhelming sports with balls in them. What a shocker!