Are you suggesting gobbos splash green now? LIke weused to do back in the day?
On the topic of artifact hate, I never really agreed on your philosophy before to disregard goblin-shaped artifact hate before, so this was just a reaffirmation. Although it is a good idea not to rely on it largely, and play around it until absolutely necessary.
On the subject on splashing green, I think your example of Krosan Grip vs Batterskull may not be the best, and still depends largely on the meta. Personally I don't want lifeloss from fetches, and adding non-basics obviously opens more target from wastes.
Gobolord:
How was leyline? Did it break your game that you had to choose to keep a hand with no way of implementing your chosen GY hate? I have to say that leyline of the void arguably is the best GY hate, but not best for goblins.
Brad and Gobolord:
I reviewed your advice on the UW matchup and it helped me considerably, and I have seen the error of my ways. Gone from 10% to more than 75%. Thank you.
I definitely agree to the Cavern/interactivity sentiment. My RUG opponent yesterday offered me the draw (two rounds from ID-range) and I could see why. He didn't want to waste his lightning bolt on my T1 lackey; he has counters for that. Many counters in fact, whereas he only has 4 bolts in his deck.
I'm not sure about 4 MWM, but I definitely like 2-3 of them. It depends on how many GI's you're using, as well as the number of Goyfs/Knights in the meta. Personally, I think I'm going to play a 3-1 split of GI and Tarfire. My reasoning is this: beyond the benefits I'm sure everyone already knows about, the fact Tarfire costs less means that we can swarm the board even faster which, as GoboLord pointed out, is what Goblins loves to do.
Also, I'd count Stingscourger as both removal and a dude to swarm the board with. He's so good it's not even funny, esp. in how much he sets reanimator back.
EDIT: Also, and thoughts on Zo-Zu, the Punisher? Seems like he could be good against Maverick/Stoneblade/Anything with fetches.
On Saturday I came full circle in fooling around with legacy decks, and revisted my first love Goblins. After leaving the ol’ deck for those slick and sexy figures of cards like LED and High Tide, I frankly wanted a change, and got tired of maindeck meddling mages and sideboard multiple flusterstorms, despite probably accounting for 80% of all high tides cast in Tokyo at this point, and being one of the only two storm players on a regular basis.
I ended playing the white splash after an insightful conversation with a friend, where in we established, “Hey, Thalia seems pretty good.” Over all I won the tournament, so without further ado:
4 Mountain
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg Warmarshall
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Stingscourger
1 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Aether Vial
Sideboard
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Stingscourger
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Pyrokinesis
Round 1: Dredge – After a triple mulligan from him, a first turn lackey traded for Putrid Imp. The second lackey earned the scoop on turn 2. Game 2 was him discarding 2 dredgers, myself dropping a lackey. He unloaded several cards into his graveyard and decided to not therapy on his narco, after which turn saw Relic eating about 60-70% of his dredge cards. 1-0
Round 2: Maverick – Game one was a first turn lackey, him a turn 2 Fauna Shaman while on the play. I played piledriver turn 2, his turn 3 was pridemage into a pass. Two gempalms later he was too behind eliciting the scoop. Game 2 was a careful jockey game to keep him stalled on mana through ports and wastes while a vial ticked up so I could tuktuk his jitte he had stoneforged turn 2. After jitte’s death Krenko came to party for lethal. 2-0
Round 3: Canadian Threshhold with Punishing Fire D: - Game 1, double grove. Double Goyf, flip delver on fire. Game 2 was long and grindy as no matter how many wastes I threw out at him he always just drew another land. Through Gempalm and relics ground it out. Game 3, turn 1 delver turn 2 blind flip, another delver, ponder, turn 4 flip off punishing fire. 2-1
Round 4: Red Mud? – First turn lackey in SCG while he mana ramped. Beat in more, bounced a wurmcoil to win. Game 2 was over extend in pyroclasm. My bad really. Game 3 was first turn lackey, turn 2 Krenko. He tried to batterskull over fallout, leaving him dead to gempalm. 3-1
Round 5: Canadian Threshhold – Game 1 was him on a fast start knocking me to 4 until I killed delvers and established blockers for goyf and mongoose. An army later and he scooped. Game 2 was odd in the sense I was blown out by spell pierce on REB and grudge on vial. Turns out he plays 4 pierces main and has nothing to side in other than 2 grduge. Game 3 was him forcing a vial, pondering, and then dying to wasteland. 4-1
Round 6: Lands – Quick lackey into SCG, into piledriver. Game 2 was about 40 minutes as I was never fully locked out, and was working to deck him. Managed to hit Worm Harvest as his only win con with 7 cards in deck. Game 3 was turn 1 lackey, waste a maze, drop warchief. Attack, drop warchief. I beat lands, go meeeee.
Overall I was pretty happy with the deck. One thing in the end though, I am not sure if I like Thalia. It never came up. I used her to attack a couple games maybe?
Hey I joined a legacy tournament on Saturday in Hannover, Germany.
We were 45 attendants. I played goblins with nearly the same list as Brad (Goblins with Green Splash Hooligan and Krosan Grip in Sideboard). I had no luck as I played two mirrors against goblins (and lost) and was rushed away against white weenie (the player draw god hands).but the deck performed well against canadian.
But the 4th place in the tournament was taken by another goblin deck and when I saw the deck list I thought: "OMG..the deck is sooo good."
but first here is the matchup analysis of the fellow goblin player:
Round Deck Win Loss Draw
1 Omnitell U 2 0 0
2 Miracle UWR 2 0 0
3 Threshold UGR (Canadian) 2 0 0
4 Dead Guy Ale 2 1 0
5 Death 'n' Taxes 2 1 0
6 Threshold UGR (Canadian) 1 2 0
this was our meta:
Deck quantity
1 Threshold UGR (Canadian) 6
2 Dead Guy Ale 3
3 Delver UR 2
4 Enchantress 2
5 Goblins 2
6 Goblins RG 2
7 Miracle UW 2
8 Miracle UWR 2
9 ANT 1
10 Bant 1
11 Belcher (1 Land) 1
12 Death 'n' Taxes 1
13 Dredge 1
14 Dredge (LED) 1
15 Elves G 1
16 Goblin Bombardement BR 1
17 Goblins RB 1
18 Goblins RW 1
19 Infect UG 1
20 Junk 1
21 Landstill UW 1
22 Maverick GW 1
23 Merfolk 1
24 Merfolk UB 1
25 Omnitell U 1
26 Omnitell UG 1
27 Omnitell UWBG 1
28 Soldiers of the Chalice 1
29 Spiral Tide 1
30 Stoneblade UW Tempo 1
31 Stoneblade UWR 1
32 Thopter Combo UWR 1
and now...I want to present you the killer list and my thoughts on it:
4th
Philipp John
Mars Attacks!
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Tarfire
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Auntie's Hovel
9 Mountain
2 Goblin Piledriver
1 Stingscourger
2 Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Siege-Gang Commander
SB: 1 Tuktuk Scrapper
SB: 3 Earwig Squad
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
- With the black splash we have auntie. the card is great. first your graveyard becomes your second library. U can cast tarfire and incinerator every round. the removal of a red card for pyrokinesis makes more sense with auntie as the removed card will likely not be lost. imagine a siege gang broght bake for a second time after u attacked with it and let it get killed intentionally :D
-but the killer card is the sideboard inclusion of earwing squad: the card is killer against show and tell, against all combo decks AND you have a good chance to win against our most terrible matchup: Blade Control - just remove all equipments. goblins were always weak against combo but with this deck it could change.
-as goblins have a good matchup against miracles and canadian and now can beat combo decks and blade...I think goblins are tier one.
Changes I would make to the list:
-the manabase is bad, really bad. there are no fetchlands and 4 auntie hovel might not get you your needed black mana. I would include 6 fetch lands , 3 Rishadan ports, 4 Wastelands, 1 Badlands, 4 Caverns, 3 Mountain. That would be an ideal mana base.
-pyrokinsesis belongs to the sideboard. with the free space we need two mogg war marshals as the deck has not many tow mana outs. I would also cut one tarfire for artifact hate (tuktuk or tinker..not sure).
-Chalice is not a good card in the current meta..Red Elemental Blast is moe flexible.
-relic is a better graveyard hate card than ravenous trap.
my decklist would be:
-4 aether vial
-4 lackey
-2 tarfire
-2 goblin pile driver
-2 mogg war marshal
-1 stingscourger
-2 gempalm incinerator
-3 goblin chieftain
-4 goblin matron
-1 goblin sharpshooter
-4 goblin warchief
-4 ringleader
-1 Krenko
- 1 tuktuk
-1 wort, boggart auntie
-3 siege gang commander
-4 Arid Mesa
-1 Badlands
-4 Cavern
-3 Mountain
-3 Rishadan Port
-2 Scalding Tarn
-4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
-1 Surgical Extraction
-1 tuktuk
-4 Red Elemental Blast
-3 Relic of Progenitus
-3 Earwing Squad
-3 Pyrokinesis
-4 Red Elemental Blast.
My sideboard plan could be:
Omni Tell:- 2 war-1 tarf-2 gemp-1 Sharp -1 tuk+4 ReB+3 squad
Merfolk:- 2 War-1 tuk -1 Sting -3 lackey+ 4 ReB + 3 Pyro
Zoo: -2 Piledriver - 1 *Stingscourer+ 3 *Pyrokinesis
Miracles:- 2 Gempalm- 1 Sting - 1 tarf +4 ReB
Canadian T:-2 Pile-1 Sharp-1 tuk -1 Siege-1 Chief+3 Relic+3 Squad
Elves: -1Tuk - 2 War Marsh + 3 Pyro
Blade:-1 Sting-2 War-1 Gemp-1 Sharp-1 Gang -1 Chief+3 Reb+1 Tuk+3 squad
Reani:+3 Squad + 3 Relic-1 Tuk -1 Gem- 2 Pile-1 War- 1 Tar
Dredge: same as Reani
Maverick:+1 tuk+3 Pyro+ 3 squad-4 Lackey-1 Sting-1 Chief- 1 Gang
what do you think? Is the black splash needed to make goblins better? My answer is obvious.
I'm not really a fan of the black splash and this list in general. Wort seems terrible and extremely slow. I want my curve to be as low and as tight as possible with the way the current meta is set up. As you all know I'm a fan of the green splash for Hooligan as the card is just bonkers vs Stoneblade which you say you have problems with. With 1 main and 1 in the board that matchup isn't really that difficult assuming you can draw a cavern. I don't know though the list just seems slow and inconsistent. As of now I'm still on the light green splash train as I just think Tin Steeet Hookigan is that goodOriginally Posted by Sasan
Great answer brad :) your deck list has a great influence on me as I am thinking the same as you in most cases. I have not tested the black splash and I think that boggart is perhaps slow but the earwing squad is too good to ignore or? Perhaps one can include 3 earnings and 1 badlands in sideboard and board them in for the taiga and hooligan against combo decks (show and tell is terrible matchup for goblins) and let brads list otherwise unchanged. What do u think brad?
Also I must note that Krosan Grip is not as good as you assumed Brad, as I always found Hooligan better on my tournament. There are not many good enchantments in the current meta (only omniscience)..so hooligan is sufficient enough :)
Sorry for the typos, I'm on iPad :)
Depends on what you're facing, you'll lose the match vs Dredge if you play Tormod's Crypt or Grafdigger's Cage and Faerie Macabre is the best disruption vs Reanimator you can ask for, but if you're looking for the best disruption card between Dredge and Reanimator then it's probably Surgical Extraction and if you're looking for the best disruption card for Dredge then it's Leyline of the Void, and I'm not certain Leyline of the Void is that much worse vs Reanimator than Surgical Extraction is honestly. I mean Surgical Extraction is better than Leyline of the Void vs. stuff like Snapcaster Mage or Life from the Loam, but I don't think you really need to board vs Snapcaster Mage and Life from the Loam is absent from the metagame.
I can definitely tell you from a Dredge/Reanimator perspective there is nothing we hate more on this earth than Leyline of the Void.
The Earwig Squad is always quoted and rarely gets space on deck.
There's a guy in the daily event that often plays with a list of very strange and exceptional goblins. Generally he has average results, but yesterday had a 4-0.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital.../tourn/4310574
I just can not imagine how it uses the SB, which take the MD and against what
What do you think?
The problem I'm having with my goblins list, in crafting it, is that everyone disagrees so wildly on several numbers of card choices. With Goblins, it's almost so redundant, that a wide assortment of creature combinations can win you the game. Because of that, it's extremely hard to build the perfect list.
1-2 Siege Gang
0-2 Krenko
0-3 Chieftain
2-4 Piledriver
2-4 War Marshall (I like 3x)
X Stingscourger
0-1 Tuk Tuk
x Tarfire
3-4 Incinerator
3-4 Warchief
It just seems like these numbers vary alot. Personally, I really want 1 Siege Gang, 1 Krenko, 3 MWM, 4 Piledriver, 2 Chieftain and 3 Warchief, but I don't think I've seen a single list with that configuration. Also, I think that Krenko and Chieftain are insane in tandem, and will win you games against the current field. Saying that it's win-more is simply incorrect. Does anyone get what I'm saying? Goblins is perhaps the hardest deck to build and play perfectly in Legacy.
My opinions in bold.
Actually, although Krenko/Chieftain ARE insane together, it IS a little bit win-more because an unanswered Krenko is still 'win' by himself, it just might take a couple more turns.
Nope. I'm neither advocatiing G splash (or any other splash) nor do I argue against it. I just want to focus on "low interaction"-cards for the future.
Why is this example not the best and what would be a better example?
About additional Wasteland targets: I honestly don't care about that. Other Legacy decks label their mana-base as "safe/secure/screw-proof" if they run 3 or more basiclands. I don't think we should be anxious about that one if we are running "only" 6-7 Mountains, adding more duals.
Leylines: They are arguably the best GY available for us. on Saturday I had to take a lesson again which I already learned: you don't win against Dredge if you dont have any hate-cards IN YOUR OPENING HAND. I should have mulled for Leyline there...
1. Auntie:
Wort is indeed a good card but we have new champion on the cc4 spot. Wort is comparable to Krenke in that both cards have the potential to provide infinite resource. Krenko does the job better here, since he puts those resources into play, while Wort demands us to re-cast those resources, thereby investing more mana.
2. Earwig Squad
I like that guy too and I'm looking for a way to include him in my list. He is another example of those "DONT INTERACT WITH ME!" cards.
3. Our most terrible MU:
...is absolutely not Bladecontrol. It's still storm combo. Blade control sure has some strong draws, but in this MU it'S really only the early SFM that catches us. I'm not saying that this MU is in our favor (since I still haven't had many representative matches against it), but it's far away from being terrible.
4. Chalice of the Void:
I'm taking this personalCHalice is the single BEST sideboard cards that Goblins ever had and it's not meta-dependant at all. Comparing it to Pyroblast (or stating that "Pyroblast is just more flexible") makes me think that you don't see Chalices applications, which are: Burn, RU-Delversligh, Elves, Tendrills based Stormcombo, Belcher, Hightide, Reanimator, random Tempo-decks.
5. Ravenous Trap:
Ravenous Trap is the best hate against Dredge, but Relic is indeed more flexible. Still, both of them underperform in comparison to Leyline of the Void (aka. Leyline of NON-INTERACTION)
I think your oppinons-in-bold sum it up. Thats the place where we need to be.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
Quick question: There are a few Goblin decks on the Legacy dailies running O-Ring out of the sb. Is that only for Omni-tell /show in tell decks or is good in other matchups?
Out of curiosity, why is 4 piledriver considered standard? Krenko, I assume?
Further, I've found that 3 Stingscourger is pretty clutch against a meta of fatties. But maybe his 4-cost Echo is detrimental?
I've returned another PD to my list because mainly of the resurgence of Merfolks, and advent of UW Miracles.
1-3 really is the appropriate number of Stingers, I seldom pay for his echo so that is somewhat irrelevant.
Because he's part of our nut draw?
I was showcasing so goldfish hands to someone to show off how ridiculous the damage escalates in a goblins hand, and I was surprised myself with how ridiculous the piledriver hands were (T4 seemed to be the consistent goldfish win undisrupted). Hands like Lackey, Incinerator + Warchief [1 damage], Piledriver + Matron + Ringleader [11 damage, 12 total], Piledriver + Stingscourger + Incinerator [33 damage, 45 total] seem routine in a goldfish and include using removal spells as well to evacuate blockers. It's a 1 for 1 at worst (trading with a goyf or lightning bolt) and tends to make your opponents start cump blocking sooner than they would like.
It's also excellent at pressuring noninteractive combo decks, since it gives them a clock.
Ravenous Trap isn't a real card because it's horrible vs Reanimator.
Yeah, I agree it's impossible to agree on Goblin configuration because certain functions are redundant between the Lords and 4+cc bombs, but you'll pull 4 Mogg Fanatic and 4 Mogg Warmarshall out of my cold dead hands, because Maverick and Elves are a thing.
I also don't get why you guys are clinging to Pyrokinesis? Ok, it's situationally awesome vs fair decks, but who gives a shit about fair decks anymore in a world of Storm, Dredge and Show&Tell?
has anyone an idea for the mirror match? are there cards that help me win against another goblin deck?
There have been times that people ran only 3 or 2. I always advocated 4 when others advocated less and now it's the other way around. Funny. I'm running 3 because I don't want to cut the 4th MWM nor one of my lands for Krenko. It has probably to do with different metagames. My metagame is aggro orientated so I like MWM more. Besides now that Sharpshooter and Skirk Prospector are in the main MWM is just better than the 4th Piley if you ask me.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
Pyrokinesis is nuts vs Dredge.
I realized that last saturday when I managed to time walk my opponent with 2 Pyrokinesis. His board got wiped twice which almost cost him the game although (1) I mulled to 5 and (2) didnt get a colorless manasource before turn 4.
On a different note....wait on TWO differen notes actually:
(1) Goblin board
Overseas in the German Legacy forum, someone briught up the idea of running a sideboard full of Goblins. His reasoning was that we have some enablers for a toolbox (Matron and Ringleader) andthe Cavern of Souls make color-splashes way easier and even more attractove since our boarded cards can't get countered (or at least Caverns makes it more difficult).
That's what came into my mind:
Earwig Squad - vs. Equipments, Combo, Semi-Combo and random Controldecks
Boartusk Liege - vs. Engineered Plague
Tuktuk Scrapper/Tin Street Hooligan - vs. Artifacts, especially Equipments
Mogg Fanatic/Skirk Prospector - vs. Dredge, Lifelinks and Jitte-Triggers
Stingscourger - vs. Sneak Show and Reanimator
Caller of the Claw - vs. Pyroclasm, Rough and Firespout
Goblin Sharpshooter - vs Goblin, Elves, Affinity
Mirror Entity - vs Merfolk
Slingshot Goblin - vs. i am the brainwasher's constant trollpostings
(2) Raging River
I stumbled over this card. I won't explain in detail what my thoughts are behind this card - I'm waitring for you to gve your impressin on this, first. Please read the card carefully before commenting on it.
Last edited by GoboLord; 09-11-2012 at 10:36 AM.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
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