Nice results! Especially against RUG! What was your decklist going into the tournament and what would you change now? I know you want Autumn's Veil in your SB, since you said it
Pretty Standard 1-Land
4 Rite of Flame
4 LED
4 Petal
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
8 Spirit Guide
4 Manamorphose
4 Tinder Wall
4 G.Probe
4 Burning Wish
4 Land Grant
4 Belcher
3 EtW
1 Taiga
SB:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Pyroblast
1 Shattering Spree
1 EtW
1 Reverant Silence
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Traitorous Blood
1 Pyroclasm
1 Traitorous Blood(really wanted to cast it, never got the chance :( )
If I was to do it again I'd probably cut Pyroblast for Veil and cut Hull Breach for Diminishing Returns/Infernal Tutor. With veil I'd much rather be pro-active than reactive when it comes to counterspells. More often than not, my opponent had 1 counter that he was leaning on then digging for more with Brainstorm/Ponder.
In summary:
Xantid Swarm vs SnT decks
Veil vs RUG
Pyroblast vs CB/Top (but you do have reverent silence in the board and you should be going off before CB in on the board)
Last edited by Damoxx; 09-12-2012 at 04:59 PM.
Couple of questions, if I may:
-What are the advantages of non-LED lists beyond financial? I play a non-LED list online because LEDs are even more prohibitively expensive online and the only advantage to it that I've found is that it's more consistent (I run 11 cantrips: 4 Manamorphose, 4 Probe, 3 Street Wraith).
-I've been running Damoxx's exact 75 (great list and congrats on your strong showing, btw) and the only issue I've found is that, without Seething Song, it's sometimes hard to get to enough mana to Wish and Warrens (i.e.,six mana).Obviously, LED (and the LED stack trick) work well with Wish but, without and LED in hand, I sometimes "fizzle" at five mana while trying to ramp to Wish and Warren mana. Have you had this experience as well?
In regards to Seething Song, I feel that it is more of a big risk/reward type play. Top decking a seething song with a belcher on the table and 1-2 mana available is the worst feeling in the world.
LED is an amazing top deck all the time. I have won many a game by having a belcher on the table after turn one, only to draw an LED. Which reminds me, during the SCG Open, I got cliqued in my draw step (I drew LED) while belcher was on the table. The clique draw was LED.
Just a quick tale for you folks, since you rarely get "Oh cool" plays in Belcher.
Game 3 against High Tide. I am on the draw and my opponent has led with the expected "Island, go" play. I draw for the turn, it's a Probe. Probe my opponent, see Flusterstorm and a load of nothing. I draw an SSG off the Probe and proceed to go "Remove 4 Spirit Guides, make Belcher, make LED, activate, kill you?"
Best.Kill.Ever.
"Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted." - John Lennon
Cutting Seething Song and Lion's Eye Diamond makes Burning Wish unplayable, do the math and you'll see what I mean.
I really think all of the cantrips are terrible in Belcher, I'd probably take Grim Monolith or Chancellor of the Tangle just so I can better judge my mulligans. If you keep one of those Street Wraith hands and just need "1 more" mana sources, you just end up fucking yourself completely the times you cycle into the 2nd Land Grant etc. and let your opponet drop that island to get Spell Pierce and Daze online.
I'd never consider cutting song or led they simply get you there. Provides enought mana to make wish worth ot activate belcher. I think that they are almost irreplaceable. And, in my experience, getting 3 mana is too easy. Monolith shew to be decent but in a 4 / no cantrip version.
One card I dismissed is reforge the soul main deck. It simply gives you opo answers while going off or provides a higher storm count in game where you dont really need to. As side choice is decent even more than pif.
I don't have the cards for belcher any more, but when I did I used serum powder religiously. It was amazing in pretty much every tournament I went to. I only played 4 cantrips with serum powder but I would recommend that to anyone picking up the deck.
My web site, www.TheWorldExposed.com
I used to run powder. I arrived to two main conclusions: it increases the chance to win via belcher but its a terrible topdeck.Originally Posted by John Cox
You nailed it.
My web site, www.TheWorldExposed.com
Interesting inclusion...i think Act of Treason fits a bit better...in which creature was you think at the time of include this card?
Traitorous Blood
///Vs
Act of Treason
Traitorous blood is close enough and gives trample.
My web site, www.TheWorldExposed.com
Well, but if you will "steal" a huge creature i think trample is irrelevant...anyway i doesnt work for emrakul or progenitus....griselbrand is the best guy we can steal?
Tyler King
10th place at a StarCityGames.com Legacy Open tournament in Indianapolis, Indiana, United States on 2012-10-21
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=50199
lol@sideboard:
1 Atog
1 Auratog
1 Chronatog
1 Foratog
1 Lithatog
1 Megatog
1 Necratog
1 Phantatog
1 Psychatog
1 Sarcatog
1 Steamflogger Boss
1 Thaumatog
1 Atogatog
1 Chandler
1 Goblin Game
Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
Hah yeah I saw that - amazing tech!
Rofl, he really went AiB (All In Belcher)
Decks that I care about:
Steel Stompy
UWx Landstill
Dreadstalker
DDFT (10% practice)
Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
Here is a link to an article I wrote on analyzing the charbelcher maindeck, if anyone is interested. You do need to scroll down an inch to find the start. Sorry, we are still figuring things out over there.
http://blog.mtgdeals.com/oarsman/reb...y-charbelcher/
This is a valuable contribution - it's worth questioning assumptions like either 8 or 11 win conditions being correct. A few comments:
- Playing less than the maximum Empty the Warrens (4, or 3 with wish) seems bad, since Empty can allow you to win through Force of Will, and also costs less as a win condition than Wish (which effectively costs 6.) For 10 win conditions, I'd suggest 4 Belcher 3 Empty 3 Wish, like the Ghent list.
- I think the conclusion that belcher builds with <7 average mana in an opening hand don't work seems too strong. First, you're often winning off Goblins. Second, turn 1 Belcher turn 2 activate (possibly with untapping a land/mox, and possibly after drawing another mana spell) is still going to win you the game a lot of the time. It might be worth also calculating total mana by turn 2. I can respect the approach of trying to maximise turn 1 kills, but a lot of the time a turn 2 belcher activation will get you there too.
- How many Chrome Mox to play is tricky. On the one hand, you never really want to draw more than one. On the other hand, drawing one can be really good since it's an initial mana source, and also it can untap into the possible turn 2 belcher activation. <4 Chromes means you draw two less often, but you also get one less often.
Actually, EtW wins can be stopped by FoW...
What some people don't realize is that blue players with a lot of experience against Belcher will counter the Ritual that brings you to 4 mana in the pool instead of holding it for the kill card
Of course, if a Spirit Guide brings you to 4 mana instead of a Ritual effect, then yes, EtW can power through FoW, but instances like that aren't too common...
There is also the opening if you have a Wish instead of EtW in hand, but that's a totally different matter altogether.
There is a disadvantage to the in hand EtW: you cannot use LED to cast it.
Wish into EtW does make use of the LED mana, so to optimize the LED, you need 4x Wish and 2x EtW.
I'm not saying that 4x Wish & 2x EtW is correct, just that we have something else to take into account.
If we find that the 'LED doesn't help cast the win'-argument is not a real problem, we can actually go -1 Belcher!
I'm serious. Belcher is terrible in multiples, and winning with it costs 7 mana, where winning with EtW or Wish into EtW costs max 6 mana, so Belcher is the hardest one to cast and use on turn 1. I would suggest we test 3x Belcher, 4x Wish, 3x EtW as a kill package if we decide 10 is the optimal number. Of course Belcher is the only card that actually kills on turn 1, but in the current meta a turn 1 EtW of 10 seems enough to win over 90% of your games, so perhaps the disadvantages of Belcher justify dropping one.
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