Miracle Control

[Maëlig]

A bit surprised not to see a 2nd equipment alongside batterskull in the hybrid lists. Has this never been an issue for you?

[Jessenator]

A bit surprised not to see a 2nd equipment alongside batterskull in the hybrid lists. Has this never been an issue for you?

You never have enough mana / creatures to utilize another equipment, going down to 3 Stoneforges is probably correct to ensure consistency of the 1 equipment in the mianboard. The old deck has problems finding a win condition or an easy to cast one (Entreat), Stoneforge is a 2 mana spell that must be answered before you untap.

[mike1987]

A bit surprised not to see a 2nd equipment alongside batterskull in the hybrid lists. Has this never been an issue for you?

Jitte is in the sideboard mainly and will only be brought in against creatures heavy decks. Else a batterskull is quite sufficient in itself as a game finisher, combined with terminus, stp and jace.

[menace13]

A bit surprised not to see a 2nd equipment alongside batterskull in the hybrid lists. Has this never been an issue for you?

A Jitte main and 2nd Batterskull side is fine even if the deck plays 6 creatures. It goes in well against EsperBlade, RUG and Maverick

[mike1987]

I've been playing Miracle Control since miracles were legal and came to some interesting conclusions :

- In this deck snap caster mage is very rarely a CA ( I never won a game with SCM beats )
- Clique is very good in some MU and utterly useless in others ( that's why I plan 2 in my side board )

- The reason I love this deck is because of it's consistency and solid mana base ( I tried a black and red splash and did not like it )

- I see PPL trying out Ponder or Portent to make the deck even more consistent.
In our deck Preordain is strictly better then both of the other options because it can clear the top of our library wile helping is find the answer that we need .

- Oring is a better overall answer then EE manly because of the existence of Show and Tell deck and the fast that Oring is 3CC ( Now that we have Sphere there is even less reason to play EE)

- Counterbalance is a MUST in the pure Miracle deck and is a bonus in the hybrid version

- now that Miracles is a DTB ppl are finding ways to beat Entreat the Angels That's why I thing that Hybrid version is better right now ( Gives you one more way to stabilize and win and you are less likely to time out )

here is my deck list :


COUNTERBALANCE CURVE :
1CC: 17
2CC: 8
3CC: 3
4CC: 3
5CC: 5
6CC: 3

WIN CONDITIONS :
3 Stoneforge
3 Jace
2 Entreat

Creatures [3]
3 Stoneforge Mystic

Instants [16]
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

Sorceries [8]
3 Preordain
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus

Enchantments [4]
3 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring

Artifacts [5]
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull

Planeswalkers [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands [21]
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island


Sideboard:
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Elspeth
2 Relic
2 Surgical
2 Disenchant
1 Path
1 Terminus
1 jitte
1 Humility
2 Clique

Cool list there kaslan, just wondering do you face some lands shortage at times? 21 lands seems a tad little for a deck like this. Been wondering if i should cut my ponder for an extra island to bump it up to 22.

[Kaslan]

Cool list there kaslan, just wondering do you face some lands shortage at times? 21 lands seems a tad little for a deck like this. Been wondering if i should cut my ponder for an extra island to bump it up to 22.

In my list I think that 21 lands is perfect. Between Brainstorm, Top and 3 Preordain I have no problem making my land drops.

This being said ... If you don't run at least 2 Preordain or Ponder in your list I think 22 lands is the right number

[catmint]

I do understand the term and stick to what I said : Preordain is strictly better then Ponder & Portent in this deck.

It is true that mathematically speaking ponder and Portent dig a bit more then Preordain. But the fact that Preordain doesn't require a shuffle effect to dig for the answer you need and cleaning up the top of your library of unwanted cards makes it better.

The way I understand the term strictly better it does not apply here. Strictly for me means a card is better than another card under any circumstances (Like lightning bolt beeing strictly better than chain lightning). That is not true here because if you need to dig for a specific card Ponder is better. So what you mean is probably Preordain is better in this deck than Ponder because...."specific situations".

[Kaslan]

The way I understand the term strictly better it does not apply here. Strictly for me means a card is better than another card under any circumstances (Like lightning bolt beeing strictly better than chain lightning). That is not true here because if you need to dig for a specific card Ponder is better. So what you mean is probably Preordain is better in this deck than Ponder because...."specific situations".

yes :)

[Valarne]

Hello international magic friends :).
I am pondering the different ways to improve UW Miracles S&T matchup, and would love some feedback on a list I threw together. It is somewhat different, and is basically a sort of Esper Hybrid. However, I dislike Stoneforge Mystic and would like to try another two-drop: Dark Confidant. It goes well with the Tops, and is in that way also a replacement more directly of Counterbalance (main that is). Since Counterbalance isn't the bomb against S&T and a few other DTB such as Maverick, I would like to try a build where it is in the board. The synergies in this hybrid is discard+Bob, Bob+Top, Top+Miracles, and besides that a control build with a bit more proactive interaction and the Bob-clock which should be great against S&T. There is a dissynergy between Bob and Terminus in a few ways, most notably in that Terminus removes Bob. My hunch is that this isn't a problem. I have added Wasteland because it is both a relevant piece of disruption against S&T, but more importantly, it is a way of really leveraging the advantage of a few turns of Bob-cardadvantage, turning excess lands into pseudo-spells. So, for your thoughts: Is Bob just not positioned for Tier 1? Is this deck wrongly built considering the meta and my intentions? Whats up? UWB Fish Miracle

4 Bob
3 Snapcaster
2 Clique
3 Jace

4 Top
3 Terminus
1 Entreat

4 STP
3 Thoughtseize
2 Pierce
4 FoW
4 Brainstom

23 land: 2 Island, 1 Plains, 1 Swamp, 3 Tundra, 3 U Sea, 1 Scrubland, 4 Wasteland, 4 Delta, 4 Flooded.

SB
4 Surgical
4 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
1 Pierce
1 Thoughtseize
1 Terminus
3 Vindicate

[Valtrix]

I think Dark Confidant is a terrible choice in this deck, considering the curve. I mean, you have 4 Force, 3 Jace, 3 Terminus, so there's a 1/6 chance you will take a stupid amount of damage to dark confidant. Yeah you can play all the deck manipulation that you want, but in the end dark confidant is going to hurt too much. Additionally, he just eats creature removal, since removal on your other creatures is not that useful. He's going to be a liability in the aggro matchup and in general just doesn't feel that good.

The way I understand the term strictly better it does not apply here. Strictly for me means a card is better than another card under any circumstances (Like lightning bolt beeing strictly better than chain lightning). That is not true here because if you need to dig for a specific card Ponder is better. So what you mean is probably Preordain is better in this deck than Ponder because...."specific situations".

I really liked Chain Lightning when I had a goyf in play and needed a sorcery.... ;)

[Fujairah]

Greetings,

I would like some feed back on my build of UW Miracles please...


3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
Creatures [5]

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Planeswalkers [4]

4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
2 Portent
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Temporal Mastery
3 Terminus
2 Vedalken Shackles
Spells [31]

2 Boseiju, Who Shelters
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Riptide Laboratory
3 Tundra
Lands [20]

2 Disenchant
1 Humility
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Path to Exile
1 Peacekeeper
2 Propaganda
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Terminus
2 Tormod's Crypt
Sideboard [15]

Additionally I have picked up a Scroll Rack that I would like to add to this deck but not sure what I would take out and any pointers on the sideboard?

[oarsman]

Fujairah, I think if you plan out what you will board against a spell based deck, you will see there might be a problem. For example, you have at least nine cards that might want to come out against High Tide. I see at most six that would come in, and none of them are fantastic in the matchup. So you end up with three Terminus in your deck when you know they will not do anything.

On the other hand, against an aggro deck you have six or more cards you might want to bring in, but I'm not sure how you will make room for all of them.

This is not a criticism of the maindeck, I just feel like the sideboard could be reworked, taking into account how many cards can actually come in against different decks.

[Valarne]

I think Dark Confidant is a terrible choice in this deck, considering the curve. I mean, you have 4 Force, 3 Jace, 3 Terminus, so there's a 1/6 chance you will take a stupid amount of damage to dark confidant. Yeah you can play all the deck manipulation that you want, but in the end dark confidant is going to hurt too much. Additionally, he just eats creature removal, since removal on your other creatures is not that useful. He's going to be a liability in the aggro matchup and in general just doesn't feel that good.

Good points I have to admit. Especially that he will turn on the spot-removal otherwise dead in the opp's hand.

[Valtrix]

Greetings,

I would like some feed back on my build of UW Miracles please...


3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
Creatures [5]

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Planeswalkers [4]

4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
2 Portent
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Temporal Mastery
3 Terminus
2 Vedalken Shackles
Spells [31]

2 Boseiju, Who Shelters
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Riptide Laboratory
3 Tundra
Lands [20]

2 Disenchant
1 Humility
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Path to Exile
1 Peacekeeper
2 Propaganda
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Terminus
2 Tormod's Crypt
Sideboard [15]

Additionally I have picked up a Scroll Rack that I would like to add to this deck but not sure what I would take out and any pointers on the sideboard?

This list seems very poor to me at the moment, and here's why I think so:

• You have a 3/1 split with Jace/Elspeth, but Jace is just miles better than Elspeth, and should be played as a 4 of before you even consider Elspeth. He just does way more for you between setting up miracles, gaining CA, or even just pitching to force of will. I have used both and in 95% of situations Jace is preferable.
• You should have 4 Sensei's Divining Top before considering any other Cantrips not named Brainstorm. Top is for sure one of the best 3 cards, by getting you so much advantage in the long term, while setting up many early plays. Multiple tops is almost never a problem with fetches.
• Temporal Mastery is just not good in this deck. Such a card is better in tempo decks, but for us we take an extra turn and then....Leave lands open and pass? It takes too much work for so little payoff because we don't apply the pressure needed to make such a card useful. By running so many miracles you also make your draws less consistent, which does matter.
• Spell snare is not a particularly strong card at the moment, in my opinion. Decks are running too many varied casting costs for it to have as many targets as it used to. Additionally, many of the 2cc cards most prevalent aren't even things that are particularly scary for our deck to deal with, since most 2cc spells at the moment are just creatures. In general I find Spell Pierce to be a much stronger card, because it has way more targets and hits things that tend to be scarier for this deck.
• Boseiju, who shelters all is beyond terrible. I don't mean to be mean, but have you even read the card? What spells do you even hope to cast off it to make it uncounterable? It only works to make instants/sorceries uncounterable, and only makes colorless mana. As such in your list you have...Hard cast terminus, hard cast force of will, Entreat the Angels, and Temporal mastery. So not only does its effect not work for most anything you would play, it come into play tapped, it only produces colorless mana, you have to pay 2 life for any mana regardless.
• You should play 1 Karakas in your list, because with such a simple 2 color mana base you can play this utility land for very little risk, and the upsides with Clique or against enemy legendaries is good.
• 20 lands is not enough, in my experience, even with more cantrips. 21 lands works much better, and most people run 22 (including myself). This deck needs its mana, otherwise it will falter.
• Sideboard also could use work, but the maindeck needs to be modified first before it makes sense to make the sideboard a good match for it. Also, Propaganda is not a good card against any deck right now. It's not actually dealing with creatures, but merely buys you a little time. If you want to buy time, Porphyry nodes does the job better since it actually kills things, and if you want to stop an assault Peacekeeper, Humility, and Ensnaring Bridge are stronger.
• As for Scroll rack, don't bother running it. Between Jace, top and brainstorm miracles are easier to setup. Rack has pretty good card selection, but the fact that it comes at card disadvantage is very painful. Furthermore, you'll generally want to be playing most of your spells and if you're in a situation where you have excess cards to "get rid of" to scroll rack, chances are you're already in a winning position.

[Fujairah]

This list seems very poor to me at the moment, and here's why I think so:

• You have a 3/1 split with Jace/Elspeth, but Jace is just miles better than Elspeth, and should be played as a 4 of before you even consider Elspeth. He just does way more for you between setting up miracles, gaining CA, or even just pitching to force of will. I have used both and in 95% of situations Jace is preferable.
• You should have 4 Sensei's Divining Top before considering any other Cantrips not named Brainstorm. Top is for sure one of the best 3 cards, by getting you so much advantage in the long term, while setting up many early plays. Multiple tops is almost never a problem with fetches.
• Temporal Mastery is just not good in this deck. Such a card is better in tempo decks, but for us we take an extra turn and then....Leave lands open and pass? It takes too much work for so little payoff because we don't apply the pressure needed to make such a card useful. By running so many miracles you also make your draws less consistent, which does matter.
• Spell snare is not a particularly strong card at the moment, in my opinion. Decks are running too many varied casting costs for it to have as many targets as it used to. Additionally, many of the 2cc cards most prevalent aren't even things that are particularly scary for our deck to deal with, since most 2cc spells at the moment are just creatures. In general I find Spell Pierce to be a much stronger card, because it has way more targets and hits things that tend to be scarier for this deck.
• Boseiju, who shelters all is beyond terrible. I don't mean to be mean, but have you even read the card? What spells do you even hope to cast off it to make it uncounterable? It only works to make instants/sorceries uncounterable, and only makes colorless mana. As such in your list you have...Hard cast terminus, hard cast force of will, Entreat the Angels, and Temporal mastery. So not only does its effect not work for most anything you would play, it come into play tapped, it only produces colorless mana, you have to pay 2 life for any mana regardless.
• You should play 1 Karakas in your list, because with such a simple 2 color mana base you can play this utility land for very little risk, and the upsides with Clique or against enemy legendaries is good.
• 20 lands is not enough, in my experience, even with more cantrips. 21 lands works much better, and most people run 22 (including myself). This deck needs its mana, otherwise it will falter.
• Sideboard also could use work, but the maindeck needs to be modified first before it makes sense to make the sideboard a good match for it. Also, Propaganda is not a good card against any deck right now. It's not actually dealing with creatures, but merely buys you a little time. If you want to buy time, Porphyry nodes does the job better since it actually kills things, and if you want to stop an assault Peacekeeper, Humility, and Ensnaring Bridge are stronger.
• As for Scroll rack, don't bother running it. Between Jace, top and brainstorm miracles are easier to setup. Rack has pretty good card selection, but the fact that it comes at card disadvantage is very painful. Furthermore, you'll generally want to be playing most of your spells and if you're in a situation where you have excess cards to "get rid of" to scroll rack, chances are you're already in a winning position.

Valtrix thank you for the specific input. Putting it to use this is what you think my deck should run to be most efficient? I have all but a couple cards in this list with a few on the way that I had already order before reading your post with the main one being Karakas. Any other input you might have or anyone else would be great. Thanks again!!!

3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
Creatures [5]

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Planeswalkers [4]

4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
2 Vedalken Shackles
Spells [29]

4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Riptide Laboratory
3 Tundra
Lands [22]

2 Disenchant
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Flusterstorm
1 Humility
2 Path to Exile
1 Peacekeeper
2 Porphyry nodes
1 Terminus
2 Tormod's Crypt
Sideboard [15]

[Darkinsanity]

I just built this deck because I had pretty much everything for it sitting around. It's fairly fun, though a little too grindy for my taste sometimes. How is the Omni-Show match-up? I also built that deck and it's awesome, and I was play-testing someone who was using Omni-show. He ended up winning both, because of top decks, but I feel like it's a decent match-up since if you can prevent them from going off initially and assemble counter/top, they can't dig using their cantrips anymore.

[lordofthepit]

The Goblins player in the Top 8 just auto-conceded against Miracles at SCG LA, saying he can't win the matchup. I thought Goblins was a terrible matchup for Miracles...?

[Shawon]

The Goblins player in the Top 8 just auto-conceded against Miracles at SCG LA, saying he can't win the matchup. I thought Goblins was a terrible matchup for Miracles...?

That explains one of the tweets I read from the coverage:

"WOW. goblins player =bitchmade #SCGLA #manup"

[ivanpei]

From my experience, Riptide lab doesn't do very much because it's too mana intensive. Most people play either wastes or factories as the colourless lands in this deck. I prefer factories because I seldom use wasteland for LD, as I try to ramp up for a big Entreat. If you expect cavern and other annoying utility lands, wastes is also pretty good.

I would also run the 4th Terminus over the 2nd shackles. Shackles is a fine card but it is narrow and somewhat slow. It wins games on it's own and is a 3 drop for Cbalance, but it takes a while to set up and against prominent creature decks (mav etc), GSZ for pridemage really sets you back alot. 1 is ok, 2 is a bit much.

Also a few counterbalances deserves to be MD imo. You don't have to run the full set, 2/3 copies is fine. I make this point because this deck is slow as a turtle at killing. You want to lock the game up tight after you stabilize. Cbalance helps you achieve that, especially against combo/control. I'd play 2 Cbalances over the 3rd Cspell and the 3rd Pierce.

Cheers and good luck!

[Illissius]

The Goblins player in the Top 8 just auto-conceded against Miracles at SCG LA, saying he can't win the matchup. I thought Goblins was a terrible matchup for Miracles...?

This is from the perspective of someone who's been out of Legacy for a few years and slightly off topic, but: if Wrath of God for doesn't beat Goblins, what does? Is there anything it loses to that's not combo?