[Deck] The Rock

[Sughayyer]

Hi guys! I've been away 'cause my pc died, and posting via phone is a pain.... Nevertheless, although I've been playing bw deadguy in the past month rock is my deck of heart, and I've been working on the following list:

3 seize
3 inquisition
4 plowshares
3 vindicate
3 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 kotr
2 liliana
1 elspeth
3 mox diamond
3 sensei's divining top
2 pernicious deed
1 life from the loam

this made space on my sideboard to add a third duress and o-ring (vs omniscience). Vindicate's ability to destroy lands proved quite useful vs burn and combos, and the deeds can take care of the sweeping. Elspeth can provide recurring threats, and as much as I like hymn, I had to drop it... It wasn't working optimally.

After rtr, I'm thinking about abrupt decay, maybe 3 decay 3 pulse, no deed? I'll still have to see.

Thanks again!

[Mirrislegend]

Rest in peace 1W
Enchantment
Exile all graveyards. Whenever a card would go in a graveyard from anywhere, exile it.

I play Rock over Deadguy Ale due to getting big green beatsticks. Now, Goyf and KotR are no longer relevant. We're fucked.

[sdematt]

I disagree. Everyone's going to play it maindeck? I think not. Maybe it'll be in tutor-based Control, but other than that, I think all's well.

-Matt

[Sughayyer]

I also don't see much relevance in that card. GW has been using instant-fetched bojuka bogs all along and that didn't stop us. If this enchantment is cast early, it will have little impact and we can deal with it. If it is cast on the late game., it might as well be too late. It is not better than the black leyline, as well.

[sdematt]

Also, we have Abrupt Decay to nuke that shit, in case.

Who's going to be playing it? Maybe UWx. Maybe. Most likely Enchantress (but they want their GY if they're running Replenish), Death and Taxes (hello Virtue's Ruin), and maybe some other garbage.

-Matt

[Sughayyer]

Do you think it would be crazy in going 4 decay 3 deed and no pulse/vindicate (relying on elspeth, discards or brute force to deal with jace)? After I played with maindeck deeds again, I feel at least 2 in the main are needed... They are good against a far too great number of decks.
Also' playing online, I saw a junk that used unearth. I found that interesting....

[sdematt]

I think no ways to deal with an active Jace seems bad. Maybe it's not, but if they wipe the board and you have no pressure and discard didn't deal with it, do you just die?

-Matt

[mini1337s]

Rest in peace 1W
Enchantment
Exile all graveyards. Whenever a card would go in a graveyard from anywhere, exile it.

I play Rock over Deadguy Ale due to getting big green beatsticks. Now, Goyf and KotR are no longer relevant. We're fucked.

Not many decks want to utilize this sort of mirrored hate effect. In our current meta, too many decks rely on their own graveyard to really want this effect. Maybe a more traditional U/W control deck could maindeck it, but that decklist doesn't exist yet.
The sky isn't falling quite yet, it's too busy dropping Giant Spaghetti Monsters out of the blue. Up your Krosan Grips, maindeck another Pridemage... you'll be fine :)

[Sughayyer]

The basic premise of The Rock is to trade cards/resources until all that's left is a big threat on our side. But I'm feeling our trades are always fair... We need to get some unfairness. That's why I thought of reusing deed on maindeck. Without hymn and deed our deck is always 1:1 ratio... Pointed discards, big beatsticks, spot removals... Everything way too fair.

[sdematt]

I see your point, don't get me wrong.

However, what matchups are you gaining value with Deed in? Miracles doesn't care that much (I mean, mucking Counterbalance is something, but still); RUG Delver will counter/Daze/Stifle the garbage out of it, and usually it'll be a 1-1 or at most 2-1; Maverick is where this shines.

The question is, where are you trying to extract the most value? Is it Miracles? Maverick? RUG? Dredge?

I think what we're really looking for is for extreme value against Miracles. With the RUG matchup, 1-for-1 is fine since we can run them out of threats (theoretically) with a decent enough hand, and Knight is just better than anything they have.

In Maverick, you're gaining tons of sweep potential for X-Y situations, where Y is hopefully approaching a value of 1, and X is maximal.

But, what does Deed do against Miracles? Nothing. The issue as well with "Miracles" is that there's a few variants that play differently. I've found the Miracle/SFM/Counterbalance list to be the best, and the most difficult to beat, because like you said, we don't have enough value in the cards we're playing. Certain cards have tons of value, like Dark Confidant or Sylvan Library or Garruk Relentless, but many others do not do anything except one for one. Compare this to Miracles. Terminus is an X-1, Counterbalance is an X-1, Top has extreme filtering advantage and potential to find more X-1's, and Entreat is literally a 4/4 X-1.

Abrupt Decay is interesting, however. Because of the fact it destroys or negates an X-1 card (namely Counterbalance), it provides a virtual X-1, and Pulse, though Counterable, provides possible X-1's, where X approaches 2 in good situations.

Now, what about the sideboard? If we have a ton of value pieces in the board, then I'd be okay in the forgoing of super value to trade for super efficiency in the main.

Like, let's see my board:

2 Pernicious Deed - Extreme value as you stated, but against Aggro, Maverick, Dredge, Enchantress, Stax, etc. When you are bringing this sucker in, you're winning, so that's great. The question is, do I want it in matchups like Miracles where I'm going to see it in my hand all the time and it'll be a do-nothing?

1 Gaddock Teeg - Turning off Jace, Terminus, etc. Perfecto. Many for one. Yay!

2 Choke - Again, value-town. Shutting off their blue production keeps them from playing good blue cards.

2 Timely Reinforcements: 3 dudes (possibly) and 6 life means you negate 2 burn spells and possible a few attacks. Definitely some advantage.

1 Virtue's Ruin - X-1 against Maverick + Death and Taxes. Seems fine.

3 Surgical Extraction - 3 or 4 for 1, but they'll have to have played or you will have discarded one copy, so technically more like a 3.5-1.5

1 Life form the Loam - Negating a possible 1-3 Wastelands or letting you get back 1 Wasteland to screw them? At worst a 1-for-1.

Then I have 3 free slots. Do I put in more crap against Miracles? RUG? Maverick? More likely, I'll want stuff against Combo and Miracles, so discard + Planeswalker/Choke?

-----------

I agree we need more value. I think if you're running into a ton of Maverick still, Deed is an excellent choice to punish their overextension, but in the main, I'm not certain, at least for me.

I think it's certainly possible to sub 3 Hymns back in for the Inquisitions, but really, is that where it is right now? Maybe it is. 3 Thoughtseize, 3 Hymn, and 2 Duress/Inquisition in the board would do a hell of a job against OmniTell, but Hymn wouldn't be as great against Maverick nor RUG due to the overextension of manabase and colour fixing.

-Matt

[ryn ball_2]

You know guys that i run traditional dark horizon list w/ 4 hymn and 2 deeds MB @sug the most unfair cards in our list are hymn and deed thats why i cant remove it in my 60.

Pernicious deed is a game breaker, that deed saves most of my games in a critical situation from aggro opponent, control opponent (stax, rug, thopters, stoneblades and even miracles)

Placing deeds in the field against miracles seem's vague in some people, but if you analyze it that miracle player can't entreat to some values of X cuz those angels will die, plus if their sensei and counterbalance are online you can disrupt that i know they will flip the top to save it from the explosion but you are 50% free to resolve anything you want to play (no more CB) or even better trade if the miracle player have CB, SDT, SFM, sword of any kind.

Plus please don't push through hard of thinking how to beat miracles (i'm not arguing, pushing war comments) seeking "optimize solutions, hate" those hate are ON US NOW (eventually abrupt decay will JOIN US) deeds, discards, extirpates/extraction, pulse/vindicate, choke and i remember what mirri reported vs miracles (few page up)
"I beat Miracles with Teeg and Surgical Extraction on StP. They pretty much scoop. I find that to be one of our easier matchups."---pretty straight forward right? that statement put a smile in my face

*Just my experience, i dont push war/flames, if i induce a harsh statement, i'm sorry

[lavafrogg]

Has anyone discusse deathrite shaman as a 4 of in rock lists? It is easily the card that I am most excited for. It is mana acceleration, life gain and a win con in the same one cc card. Holy shit it looks good as a preview.

[ryn ball_2]

Has anyone discusse deathrite shaman as a 4 of in rock lists? It is easily the card that I am most excited for. It is mana acceleration, life gain and a win con in the same one cc card. Holy shit it looks good as a preview.

This card is really interesting, shrink opposing knights, steals snapcaster triggers, scavenging ooze-like 3rd ability. Definitely i will grab a set of this card but testing it hmmm maybe later on the top of my priority --abrupt decay--

[lavafrogg]

Deathrite Shaman

Creature - Elf Shaman

tap: Exile target land from a graveyard. Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
black, tap : Exile target instant or sorcery card from a graveyard. Each opponent loses 2 life.
green,tap : Exile target creature card from a graveyard. You gain 2 life.

1/2

This card is dumb and I am only beginning to think about how dumb it actually is. It lets us accelerate our mana base while controlling knights and stifling threshold/goyf growth. It is a main board able form of life gain that can put you out of reach of an aggro player or it is the perfect card to solve stalled game situations with its drain ability.

I feel that this card will change the way we build junk decks.

Oh god, it has such good synergy with Lilliana... push her out on turn two, gain life and drain opponents while discarding everyones hands and controlling the board with her sac ability....

The card also seems to kick miracles in the ass pretty well, as you can continue to drain and life gain against their slowish clock. They have to keep the shaman off of the table or snap-casters are turned off which limits their ability to kill everything. It is kind of a catch 22 for the miracles player, I have to swords the shaman who is eating the swords out of my graveyard preventing me from swordsing the shaman. He also gets out before counterbalance( but with abrupt decay it seems balance will not be an issue)

Continuing my research with this card: It completely replaces mox diamond as our mana acceleration, which sucks due to the synergy of discarding a land to add a mana, but plays perfect with GSZ lists as you can either play him at 1 mana or GSZ for arbor at 1 mana, giving you 8 turn one mana acceleration plays! Wasteland ensures lands to eat against many of the formats top decks.

The card is also relevant against storm combo as you can eat their cantrips to lower ad nauseam totals and IGG loops/PiF.

I'm still going: the life gain counteracts the confidant life loss!

[f|i[p]]

Deathrite shaman can really be of potential use... and could really be good to replace mox diamonds, ofcourse, we don't get first turn confidants and such anymore...However it really does deserve some testing...

Would probably add a few more fetches just to make sure his mana producing ability is consistent early on each game...

[lordofthepit]

The card also seems to kick miracles in the ass pretty well, as you can continue to drain and life gain against their slowish clock. They have to keep the shaman off of the table or snap-casters are turned off which limits their ability to kill everything. It is kind of a catch 22 for the miracles player, I have to swords the shaman who is eating the swords out of my graveyard preventing me from swordsing the shaman. He also gets out before counterbalance( but with abrupt decay it seems balance will not be an issue)

This card seems terrible against Miracles. This is just another creature that can get hit by Swords to Plowshares or their many sweepers (Terminus and Engineered Explosives), or run into Counterbalance lock in late game. If you want to use the "Grim Lavamancer" ability, your opponent can fizzle you by responding with a Snapcaster Mage and then casting the targeted spell. Unlike Scavenging Ooze, this card requires you to tap to activate, so you can't re-activate right over the top of them.

This card seems too small to affect the board, too conditional for the life gain or life loss effects to be worthwhile, and too insignificant as a piece of gravehate. The ramp ability would be very nice, but again, it's dependent on lands being available in the graveyard (and I believe this is not a mana ability since it targets something, meaning your opponent can "fizzle" the mana production with an Ooze).

IMO, it might see some play in Rock (think Ulvenwald Tracker), but I highly doubt it will be a staple anywhere.

[Stuuch]

Deathrite Shaman

Creature - Elf Shaman

tap: Exile target land from a graveyard. Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
black, tap : Exile target instant or sorcery card from a graveyard. Each opponent loses 2 life.
green,tap : Exile target creature card from a graveyard. You gain 2 life.

1/2

This card is dumb and I am only beginning to think about how dumb it actually is. It lets us accelerate our mana base while controlling knights and stifling threshold/goyf growth. It is a main board able form of life gain that can put you out of reach of an aggro player or it is the perfect card to solve stalled game situations with its drain ability.

I feel that this card will change the way we build junk decks.

Oh god, it has such good synergy with Lilliana... push her out on turn two, gain life and drain opponents while discarding everyones hands and controlling the board with her sac ability....

The card also seems to kick miracles in the ass pretty well, as you can continue to drain and life gain against their slowish clock. They have to keep the shaman off of the table or snap-casters are turned off which limits their ability to kill everything. It is kind of a catch 22 for the miracles player, I have to swords the shaman who is eating the swords out of my graveyard preventing me from swordsing the shaman. He also gets out before counterbalance( but with abrupt decay it seems balance will not be an issue)

Continuing my research with this card: It completely replaces mox diamond as our mana acceleration, which sucks due to the synergy of discarding a land to add a mana, but plays perfect with GSZ lists as you can either play him at 1 mana or GSZ for arbor at 1 mana, giving you 8 turn one mana acceleration plays! Wasteland ensures lands to eat against many of the formats top decks.

The card is also relevant against storm combo as you can eat their cantrips to lower ad nauseam totals and IGG loops/PiF.

I'm still going: the life gain counteracts the confidant life loss!

Tne card is good dont get me wrong but it´s also very conditional. What if you dont have lands in your opponents graveyard to exile for the mana? I bet these situations will occur. I dont want to eat my own lands to shrink my knight. The same goes for all the other abilities. If the resource you are looking for to gain life or drain life from your opponent is not in either yard the elf is just a 1/2 body. It does not grow bigger either like Ooze does.

I think I still want my diamonds as mana acceleration. They are much more reliable. Yes they are dead draws late game but I dont mind that so much. If this card is played more than just a one off zenith target it will require radical changes to rock decks and I dont find that essential at the moment.

[Sughayyer]

The card is good, bu it doesn't belong in the rock. See, a turn 2 liliana is great. But a turn 1 discard (that also gives us information) is better. It is too conditional to work, and doesn't impact the field (also, he potentially shrinks our own goyves).

[sdematt]

You know guys that i run traditional dark horizon list w/ 4 hymn and 2 deeds MB @sug the most unfair cards in our list are hymn and deed thats why i cant remove it in my 60.

I agree, they do give the most X-for-1's, but the real question is, is Hymn where you want to be against RUG? Especially since you have to move into BB on Turn 2, which usually means you'll have to do it off of 2 duals - not a situation you want to be in against a deck playing that much mana denial.

Pernicious deed is a game breaker, that deed saves most of my games in a critical situation from aggro opponent, control opponent (stax, rug, thopters, stoneblades and even miracles)

I agree with you 100%. Deed is amazing, but I cannot maindeck it at the moment. I have 0 space, and I'm seeing too much RUG and Spell Pierce to make me have to run it main.

Placing deeds in the field against miracles seem's vague in some people, but if you analyze it that miracle player can't entreat to some values of X cuz those angels will die, plus if their sensei and counterbalance are online you can disrupt that i know they will flip the top to save it from the explosion but you are 50% free to resolve anything you want to play (no more CB) or even better trade if the miracle player have CB, SDT, SFM, sword of any kind.

Unless your Miracles opponent goes full retard, you're never getting their Top (or, unless you have a very specific situation where you have Deed on Top, and they need to flip Top to Counterbalance, but at that point, they know their Top is dying)

Plus please don't push through hard of thinking how to beat miracles (i'm not arguing, pushing war comments) seeking "optimize solutions, hate" those hate are ON US NOW (eventually abrupt decay will JOIN US) deeds, discards, extirpates/extraction, pulse/vindicate, choke and i remember what mirri reported vs miracles (few page up)
"I beat Miracles with Teeg and Surgical Extraction on StP. They pretty much scoop. I find that to be one of our easier matchups."---pretty straight forward right? that statement put a smile in my face

But the thing is, what list has he actually been playing against? How good is the player? I'm not trying to say this hasn't been the case. I've stomped Miracles for a while, but only recently I've been losing more often than I'd like. Ideally, I'd love to grind Miracles and Rug tonight with Junk just to see what's up with the matchups again, and see what we would rather be doing. Maybe you're 100% right in that Hymn must come back, I could be wrong, it's just with the amount of RUG still floating around, is it worth it? However, if you are seeing a rise in Miracles, and therefore, a decrease in RUG (I've seen many, many tournaments with RUG being positions 2 or something in the Top 8, but usually Miracles seems to edge them out for first place), then I think would definitely be an option to re-explore (two explores? ) at some point in the near future.

-Matt

[sdematt]

Also, 2600th post. Wewt.

-Matt