Miracle Control

[ivanpei]

This is from the perspective of someone who's been out of Legacy for a few years and slightly off topic, but: if Wrath of God for doesn't beat Goblins, what does? Is there anything it loses to that's not combo?

Miracles is really hard against goblins because Goblins refills it's hand too easily. Cards like Matron and Ringleader generate a ton of value for the goblins player. Even after terminus-ing goblins can easily recover. I have tested this MU a ton and it is very hard. Some games I lose even after terminus-ing 2/3 times. Counterbalance does very little against goblins and with cavern, even lackeys and piledrivers sneak through easily.

Against goblins, you are beatdown, no matter how blue your deck is. They have-near infinite gas so the approach is to go for the big entreat. Basically the only way to beat them is to stall till you can stick an entreat for 3/4. This is also one of the reasons why I like the SFM version. It increases your threat count. If you can drop it T2 and be out of Gempalm range, you are home free! A batterskull is a huge beating against gobs.

Goblins is also weak to aggro decks that are bigger than them. Stuff like Mav (especially with Equipment) trounces gobs because their dudes are just bigger. Also aggro-control like RUG are good against Gobs. Fast dudes getting in the red zone while you stall their matrons/ringleaders with daze/force/stifle lets you get there usually. Gobs in Modern legacy is almost always the control deck because their topdecks are just incredibly powerful.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Twitter was wrong. The UWR Miracles and Goblins players were friends. Goblins conceded to Miracles because the player (Michael Hetrick) would better use the SCG Open points from the wins.

In testing, Hetrick said Goblins went 14-1 against him.

[sdematt]

This makes much more sense. The only way the Miracles player can win easily is if they're playing MD Moat and the SFM package. Otherwise, it's a hell of a grind.

-Matt

[FieryBalrog]

I don't like the Miracles matchup vs Show & Tell decks. The clock is so slow that the S&T player can just sculpt one hand after another, and unlike vs Storm, getting CB top down does not guarantee a lock-out, and in some cases may do nothing at all.

I pretty much only won when I countered their first attempt, got Jace down and fatesealed them into oblivion.

[lordofthepit]

Twitter was wrong. The UWR Miracles and Goblins players were friends. Goblins conceded to Miracles because the player (Michael Hetrick) would better use the SCG Open points from the wins.

In testing, Hetrick said Goblins went 14-1 against him.

Why did the announcers say "he took a look at the Terminuses in his opponent's deck and just said I cannot win and conceded"? Were they making shit up?

Sometimes, I find the SCG announcers aren't that familiar with Legacy, but in this case, I know Cedric is an excellent Goblins player who's very familiar with the deck, so I'm sure he wouldn't have said that and/or would have corrected the other guy.

[anwei]

Why did the announcers say "he took a look at the Terminuses in his opponent's deck and just said I cannot win and conceded"? Were they making shit up?

Sometimes, I find the SCG announcers aren't that familiar with Legacy, but in this case, I know Cedric is an excellent Goblins player who's very familiar with the deck, so I'm sure he wouldn't have said that and/or would have corrected the other guy.

It sounded like that had been reported to them and they thought, at the very least, that was pretty hasty - they sort of made excuses for him, noting that it had been a really long day.
It didn't sound, though, like either had a good sense of how that match-up would go (or, given what they understood the player's decision to be, like they were confident in that). Even as some Goblins decks do well, it's not super popular and Miracles is relatively new. The logic of "3-4 maindeck board wipes + tons of spot removal against wimpy-creature swarm sounds brutal" obviously has some intelligibility to it, even if it's not empirically correct.

[Fujairah]

From my experience, Riptide lab doesn't do very much because it's too mana intensive. Most people play either wastes or factories as the colourless lands in this deck. I prefer factories because I seldom use wasteland for LD, as I try to ramp up for a big Entreat. If you expect cavern and other annoying utility lands, wastes is also pretty good.

I would also run the 4th Terminus over the 2nd shackles. Shackles is a fine card but it is narrow and somewhat slow. It wins games on it's own and is a 3 drop for Cbalance, but it takes a while to set up and against prominent creature decks (mav etc), GSZ for pridemage really sets you back alot. 1 is ok, 2 is a bit much.

Also a few counterbalances deserves to be MD imo. You don't have to run the full set, 2/3 copies is fine. I make this point because this deck is slow as a turtle at killing. You want to lock the game up tight after you stabilize. Cbalance helps you achieve that, especially against combo/control. I'd play 2 Cbalances over the 3rd Cspell and the 3rd Pierce.

Cheers and good luck!

Thanks for the input

[klaus]

.

Hey. Long time no read!!

[ivanpei]

Tested the SFM version against RUG. It was fantastic, if unanswered it's GG. What I enjoyed was that it affected the board state straight away. The opposing player must answer SFM straight away so he has to dedicate tempo to remove him. This screw with their gameplan a bit. Even if it bites bolt/STP, the deck can make full use of the Batterskull in hand. This deck reached 5 mana very easily and Batterskull is a very powerful win condition.

If unaswered, SFM= GG. If forced, you are up 1 card. If Plowed/Bolted, you are up 1 Batterskull and your opponent has to invest 1 mana. Now that Spell Snare sees less play, SFM is very very potent. I will be sticking to the hybrid list with 3 SFM and 1 Batterskull.

[sdematt]

Told you :P

-Matt

[losada]

Hello everyone,

I'm testing the hybrid version, with SFM main and Counterbalance in side. I have my doubts about whether to play Entreat the Angels in the 75. SFM package may be enough to win. Any ideas or suggestions?

I'm running:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Blue Fetchs
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
3 Jace, the mind sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Counterspell
2 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives

SIDE
3 Counterbalance
3 Toughtseize
1 Stoneforge
1 Jitte
1 Terminus
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Disenchant

[Kaslan]

Tested the SFM version against RUG. It was fantastic, if unanswered it's GG. What I enjoyed was that it affected the board state straight away. The opposing player must answer SFM straight away so he has to dedicate tempo to remove him. This screw with their gameplan a bit. Even if it bites bolt/STP, the deck can make full use of the Batterskull in hand. This deck reached 5 mana very easily and Batterskull is a very powerful win condition.

If unaswered, SFM= GG. If forced, you are up 1 card. If Plowed/Bolted, you are up 1 Batterskull and your opponent has to invest 1 mana. Now that Spell Snare sees less play, SFM is very very potent. I will be sticking to the hybrid list with 3 SFM and 1 Batterskull.

Welcome to the Hybrid side :)

[mike1987]

Tested the SFM version against RUG. It was fantastic, if unanswered it's GG. What I enjoyed was that it affected the board state straight away. The opposing player must answer SFM straight away so he has to dedicate tempo to remove him. This screw with their gameplan a bit. Even if it bites bolt/STP, the deck can make full use of the Batterskull in hand. This deck reached 5 mana very easily and Batterskull is a very powerful win condition.

If unaswered, SFM= GG. If forced, you are up 1 card. If Plowed/Bolted, you are up 1 Batterskull and your opponent has to invest 1 mana. Now that Spell Snare sees less play, SFM is very very potent. I will be sticking to the hybrid list with 3 SFM and 1 Batterskull.

Glad to see this. Care to share your list?

[Pherion]

I have also begun to recently test a Hybrid version, and I like it a lot. Here's the list I'm using right now:

Lands
3 Tundra
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
2 Plains
5 Island

Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Entreat the Angels

Sideboard
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Disenchant
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Counterbalance
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Path to Exile
1 Engineered Explosives

I would like to fit a SoFF in there somewhere, but I'm not sure where. I was contemplating moving the Batterskull to the board, removing the Shackles, and putting the sword main deck. Not sure how that'll work out. It would definitely change the match-ups.

So far the results have been fantastic. I completely creamed Fish, which was previously a bad match-up. I'm not sure about both equipment in the main either. It's likely that's a Meta call. If you've got a lot of agro, then both main, otherwise just the skull main.

I also don't really like putting the CBs in the side. It makes me feel bad :( But honestly, I haven't missed them as much as I thought I would.

[Tanith]

It's insane how good SFM is against ANY matchup. I have read above she is like another win-con, and it is! I mean, she win games despite being a MIRACLE deck. I run 2 MD with a single Batterskull MD and a single Jitte SB against creatures-based decks (I also play CB MD, and still have no face any problem).
It's so good when in response of activating her you play Terminus cleaning the board and being Batterskull the only creature in the board.
Plus, when you have no fetches to "clean the top three cards" she can gave that extra shuffle.
Give her a try! C'mon to the Hybrid side ;)

Also, I would like to ask you fellows, what's the best side against Reanimator and Dredge decks. I play 2 tormod's crypt for both plus 3 ReB / Pyroblast and the 3rd pierce also for the Reanimator matchup.
I must say I play 1 trinket mage MB to find SdT faster, along with Tormod's crypt, Engineered explosives and Pithing needle (which I found not so good against Reanimator, 'cause I've got enough with 4 terminus, 2 entreat, Karakas and Jace)

[Valtrix]

For GY decks Grafdigger's Cage or Surgical Extraction are the best options for this deck, in my opinion. Cards that are one-time use, like Tormod's Crypt, are better suited for decks that have a faster clock that can abuse the free cost. For us, we don't really have a fast clock, so GY decks can easily fight through their GY being eaten once.

With that said, Surgical Extraction is an exception to that rule, because extraction has a wider application than being strictly against GY decks. It lets you deal with decks that have low win-cons (miracle control for example), or you can take a whole engine out of somebody's deck (like Bridge from Below against Dredge), which tends to make it more effective than just eating a yard. An upside is they don't always know it's coming, but the downside is that it stays in your hand longer to get removed to discard. It can also be snapcastered.

Cage on the other hand is a must answer for any GY deck. They almost literally can't win or do much of anything unless they find an answer, which buys you a ton of time if they can't do, and you can also try and counter their answer to your hate. I prefer Cage because I find it to be stronger against the decks that really try to abuse GYs, and I don't find the extra utility of extraction useful that much.

I would recommend at least 3 pieces of GY hate if you're going to bother running it, otherwise it's pretty unreliable and against GY decks in particular you tend to really need your answers. That said, REBs and pierces are also strong, so if you're running those, they can help supplement your sideboard plan.

[Pherion]

For GY decks Grafdigger's Cage or Surgical Extraction are the best options for this deck, in my opinion. Cards that are one-time use, like Tormod's Crypt, are better suited for decks that have a faster clock that can abuse the free cost. For us, we don't really have a fast clock, so GY decks can easily fight through their GY being eaten once.

With that said, Surgical Extraction is an exception to that rule, because extraction has a wider application than being strictly against GY decks. It lets you deal with decks that have low win-cons (miracle control for example), or you can take a whole engine out of somebody's deck (like Bridge from Below against Dredge), which tends to make it more effective than just eating a yard. An upside is they don't always know it's coming, but the downside is that it stays in your hand longer to get removed to discard. It can also be snapcastered.

Cage on the other hand is a must answer for any GY deck. They almost literally can't win or do much of anything unless they find an answer, which buys you a ton of time if they can't do, and you can also try and counter their answer to your hate. I prefer Cage because I find it to be stronger against the decks that really try to abuse GYs, and I don't find the extra utility of extraction useful that much.

I would recommend at least 3 pieces of GY hate if you're going to bother running it, otherwise it's pretty unreliable and against GY decks in particular you tend to really need your answers. That said, REBs and pierces are also strong, so if you're running those, they can help supplement your sideboard plan.

What's your rational for playing Cage when we also play Snapcaster? I mean the Snapcasters aren't going to do much for you if there's a cage out. Honestly before I ran equipment, Snapcaster was only ever an extra spell - never a body. I'd almost have to side out Snapcasters if I was going to run Cage.

[Valtrix]

First, I don't actually play snapcaster in my build, but that's a different story. In general though, against any deck that you want Cage against using Snapcaster isn't a huge deal. Sure, it's nice when you can flashback a surgical extraction or spell pierce, but you won't always have a snapcaster to use to make this play. Cage is an absolute must answer for a GY deck, and so when I want to hate on GY decks I want to play a card that almost 100% will make them lose if they don't have an answer. Some minor dysynergy with one of our cards is a small price to pay for that power. Surgical extraction can buy time, and can be enough to stop the GY decks, but GY decks can still fight through it when piloted properly. Furthermore, saving snapcasters for until they answer cage is always an option and siding him out all together if it bothers you so is also another option.

[ivanpei]

Glad to see this. Care to share your list?

Md:

3 SFM
1 Batterskull
2 Snapcaster
2 Entreat
3 Jace TMS

4 FOW
2 Cspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterbalance
4 STP
4 Terminus

4 Brainstorm
4 Top

4 Strand
4 Scalding
1 Mesa
4 Tundra
1 Glacial Fortress
3 Factory
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas

SB Still variable but for now it has cliques, flusterstorms and surgicals.

Just remember to board out SFM against rug since they will be bringing grudge in.

[Valtrix]

I don't agree with siding out your ways to access Batterskull against RUG. If the Skull gets into play, it can be incredibly difficult for them to win the game. I definitely would want to keep in something that gives them a ton of trouble, even if there's the possibility of them having artifact removal for it. Most RUG lists are only running 2-of their artifact hate anyway. Plus an early SFM can be a blocker for small delvers or geese early, which is relevant as well.