[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

[catmint]

Good points wmc8. Disagree slightly. Stifle is a very good anti control card. MAna-screw (sometimes a good play) miracle triggers, EE, Batterskull come into play, snapcaster com into play,... It is also great in the mirror which you correctly see as an important matchup where any little edge can help with the luck & skill factor.

[wcm8]

Good points wmc8. Disagree slightly. Stifle is a very good anti control card. MAna-screw (sometimes a good play) miracle triggers, EE, Batterskull come into play, snapcaster com into play,... It is also great in the mirror which you correctly see as an important matchup where any little edge can help with the luck & skill factor.

Well, Stifle is definitely one of those high-risk, high-reward type cards. Sometimes you can mana screw an opponent with it, but just as often they can just play out duals and basics from their hand. Once the first few land drops have been achieved, it becomes mostly ineffectual in that regard.

It's also pretty awkward on the draw, and there are some decks that don't really have many good targets for it. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the card, but its usefulness is very situational and meta-dependent -- much like Spell Snare to some extent. So I think when people go back and forth on that card's power level, what they really need to consider is their local metagame. If you have a significant combo presence, I would definitely roll with Stifle. Against a more aggro/mid-rangey field, I'd probably opt for something else.

Either way, you don't have control over your pairings. While you might have built the deck properly for the field as a whole that day, your pairingsr might be the complete opposite. It's very frustrating at times.

[catmint]

Sure.. There are some decks/situations where Stifle is not doing a lot and it has to be sided out. But I am not unhappy against control to have a stifle in hand even if they have 4+ lands. Manascrew in this matchup is the exception - not the rule. Stifle is so often the game deciding play: Will EE kill my creatures? Can they miracle Entreat/Terminus? Will Batterskull get into play with a token?. Will deed get cracked?...

Sure - somehow a meta call, but if I prepare for an unkown tournament I look at the popular decks and pack my stifles.

HIgh-Risk / High reward is relative.
I risk of having a dead card to shuffle back or pitch sometimes, for the reward of randomly winning with screw or in one of the matchups where it is one of the best card. If I go with Thought-Scour I have no risk, but I can be sure to get only marginal value out my 1 mana spent.

[xfxf]

I think I'd always pack Stifle rather than Thought Scour as most American lists tend to do. In almost all matchups it works into your Tempo plan and against most decks there a ton of versatile uses which really dagger opponent's plays. Thought Scour to me is a terrible cantrip, at an equal footing with Stifle on negating Miracles and mainly useful for growing Mongoose. I really can't understand how filling your graveyard with cards you might need just to grow Mongoose can be benefitial. I'd rather fill my graveyard with Fetchland, Stifle and Chain Lightning so that while it fills up, the cards are actually doing something for me.

Also since we play 4 Daze, 3-4 Spell Pierce with 4 Wastelands the most intuitive complement to this strategy is Stifle. I just don't know what else would fit the deck so well in those slots.

Yes, they do come out in the post-board games a lot but boarding allows this deck to really focus on a particular strength and at that point you may forgo the versatility of Stifle.

[apistat_commander]

I think I'd always pack Stifle rather than Thought Scour as most American lists tend to do. In almost all matchups it works into your Tempo plan and against most decks there a ton of versatile uses which really dagger opponent's plays. Thought Scour to me is a terrible cantrip, at an equal footing with Stifle on negating Miracles and mainly useful for growing Mongoose. I really can't understand how filling your graveyard with cards you might need just to grow Mongoose can be benefitial. I'd rather fill my graveyard with Fetchland, Stifle and Chain Lightning so that while it fills up, the cards are actually doing something for me.

I have been thoroughly unimpressed with Thought Scour. I was testing the other day and had the following situation come up.

Opp: Crack fetch.
Me: Stifle.
Opp: Thought Scour targeting himself. Mills Daze and Force. Damn.

I can see using Scour to feed Grim Lavamancers, but Geese typically grow quickly enough as it is. Sure they aren't that great against combo, but combo mostly comes down to drawing enough disruption for that critical turn. Maybe with Dryad Militant and Deathrite Shaman seeing play we will need an alternative way to fill the yard but at that point you might want to just look into other creatures.

[Rekk]

I. I really can't understand how filling your graveyard with cards you might need just to grow Mongoose can be benefitial.

You can't look at cards you put in the graveyard as "cards you might need" they don't exist they were milled. those same cards could have very well just been the cards on the bottom of your library. It does change the math of course, and maybe once in awhile might mill your only out, but at the same token you can't say wew im glad i milled those lands i was gonna draw.

[xfxf]

I don't quite agree. Let me give you this example. I play a good deal of burn and often use it straight to the face for the final points of damage. So there are quite a number of times when I fire a Ponder just to find that burn spell and do it with confidence because of my chances. What if you mill 2 burn spells while looking for one? I'd rather spells to be in my library so that when I Ponder/Brainstorm to find them they are there.

Another one. Think about the grindy games where the board clogs up with creatures and you're hoping to break through. You know you milled 2 Goyfs at some point in the game. You know if your single Goyf dies your chances of backing up the team will diminish to nothing. I'd rather my cards to stay in my library so I'll still have the chance to draw/find them.

[Ziveeman]

If you want the cantrip action of Thought Scour but don't want to mill cards (and you're not playing Grim Lavamancer and Nimble Mongoose), play Gitaxian Probe. Seriously, it's not that bad of a card. The perfect information is nice and you don't need to run 19 land (I can even see myself going down to 17). Brainstorms get better and Stifles get better (since you can still cantrip turn one and hold it up).

[xfxf]

I don't want the cantrip action of Thought Scour, I don't want any action of Though Scour. I'm happy with my Ponders, Brainstorms and Stifles.

[Ziveeman]

What's your list looking like? I ran all three plus I had room for two Thought Scours, so I guess I'm just curious what Thought Scour *would* be replacing.

[wcm8]

Against some decks, Nimble Mongoose is the best threat since they have very few ways to answer it. With Thought Scour, it's easier to get Goose into 3/3 mode as early as turn 3, sometimes even turn 2 -- this can often make the difference between winning a damage race or losing to their higher CMC bombs. It's also useful against control decks to be able to cantrip at the end of their turn (especially if you needed to leave Spell Snare mana up for a potential Counterbalance or Stoneforge Mystic), and helps with making Ponder better without needing to crack fetchlands. Finally, if you are playing some number of Life from the Loam, it either helps you find it faster or gives you more targets when you cast it.

I don't think the card is essential, but it does serve a strategic purpose in certain builds.

[cheerios]

What's the best plan vs miracles? It seems like a horrible matchup especially post board. I encountered one opponent who even sided in relics of progenitus too prevent me from growing nimble and goyf. I'm debating if I should add sulfuric vortex or not. It looks too narrow for me. Any strategies/tips in combating miracles? By the way I'm running the stifle build.

[xfxf]

@Ziveeman
I'm still using the same list for a couple of months (and posted here before). But since you asked here it is again. I believe my maindeck is nicely tuned for the aggressive tempo play while also retaining enough distruption against combo in G1. In G2, G3 I have good options to go anti-combo as well.

4 Delver
4 Mongoose
4 Goyf

4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Pierce
3 FoW

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Forked Bolt
2 Chain Lightning

18 Lands

SB:
1 FoW
1 Flusterstorm (coming in against combo as the 4th pierce, so in that case better than pierce)
2 REB
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Submerge
2 Sulfur Elemental

I don't find the extra burn unnecessary because when there are no creatures around to burn they can go to the face to keep the clock up while also growing Mongoose. I also don't find the amount of cantrips low as the redundancy in the deck helps me find the cards enough when I need them. That's why I'd never want to play Thought Scour. I want to make efficient use of every card, and the top 3 cards of my library rather than throwing them away.

[wcm8]

What's the best plan vs miracles? It seems like a horrible matchup especially post board. I encountered one opponent who even sided in relics of progenitus too prevent me from growing nimble and goyf. I'm debating if I should add sulfuric vortex or not. It looks too narrow for me. Any strategies/tips in combating miracles? By the way I'm running the stifle build.

You answered your own question: Sulfuric Vortex. If you can get just a few hits in with your creatures and resolve a Bolt or two, this card seals the deal. If you are expecting a lot of control decks, I would play 2-3 in the sideboard.

[cheerios]

You answered your own question: Sulfuric Vortex. If you can get just a few hits in with your creatures and resolve a Bolt or two, this card seals the deal. If you are expecting a lot of control decks, I would play 2-3 in the sideboard.

Thanks, I was choosing between sulfuric vortex or envelop for my 2 sb flex slots. Envelop can hit a wider array of decks but was just subpar vs miracles. Although it was great to have a hard counter sometimes.

[Sturtzilla]

Thanks, I was choosing between sulfuric vortex or envelop for my 2 sb flex slots. Envelop can hit a wider array of decks but was just subpar vs miracles. Although it was great to have a hard counter sometimes.

Ummm? Envelop hits both Miracle cards we worry about, i.e. Terminus and Entreat the Angels. It stone cold counters them, none of this pay or nonsense. I fail to see how a hard counter for their 5-8 biggest impact spells is "subpar." The only other things you really need to worry about are Jace and Counter-Top lock. Jace isn't that scary, if you manged to get a presence on board and keep them from Terminusing. So I am not sure what you are talking about.

Vortex does really shine in the match up, though. They generally durdle around for multiple turns. So sticking it can just get there, as they likely fetch a few more times than we do in addition to a few hits and/or pieces of burn.

[wcm8]

Against UW decks, you are the beat down. I think Envelop is far too reactive in this matchup. Sulfuric Vortex is pretty much an auto-win card and plays into your aggressive plan, and as a three-drop is more likely to resolve through an established lock.

With the possibility of UW decks adopting Rest in Peace and/or Supreme Verdict once RtR is legal, having a sustainable threat that ignores those cards might be necessarry to close out games.

[alekill]

Against miracles stifle and envelop are your game winners. Your soft counters should be able to stop jace and countertop while you save your hard counters for the actual miracle cards.

Besides that just lay a goose down and maybe one more creature depending on how many threats you have. If they do manage to terminus just play another creature. Also don't be afraid to sacrifice a goyf to change the top card to a two so that you can resolve a goose.

[xfxf]

Regarding RIP, I don't know if they will adopt but certainly a lot of people will try and brew with it. I'm sure there'll be people sideboarding it, some people coming up with RIP-Energy Field combos etc. etc. If that trend doesn't get sidetracked quickly it can and will negatively effect RUG. I agree to the need of finding a sustainable threat under prevalent graveyard hate. I also think that, whether it's good or bad, there'll be people playing Dryad Militants and that will also put a cap to the size Goyf can grow and the speed Goose can get threshold. The deck will need to adapt and evolve.

[Borealis]

I don't want the cantrip action of Thought Scour, I don't want any action of Though Scour. I'm happy with my Ponders, Brainstorms and Stifles.

So I guess you don't like Thought Scour, huh?

As one of those that do run the card, I can say I absolutely like the flexibility of the Instant-speed Mill/draw. Usually, I'm quite happy to turn a 1/1 Goose into a 3/3 in the early turns, or fatten up a Goyf midcombat, and that's the primary reason I run Scour. But I've also Scoured away many lands and/or jank after a Brainstorm/Ponder with no shuffle effect. It's also a great way to mess with your opponent, if you feel you can get a read on their Brainstorming situations. It's nothing special, but it also rewards clever plays better than you might think.

Since you run Stifle and extra Burn spells (5!), you probably reach threshold a little faster than some builds. For me, I hate 1/1 Mongooses, so I'd rather hit 7 cards ASAP. Against cards like Relic (but not RiP! Oh Noes!), it can help you refill the yard in the midgame better than anything else.

I'm still not on Stifle yet, but I do think it's pretty good. I met a kid last weekend who was only running 2-3, which is something I could get behind. I'd cut maybe a FoW and a Scour, and mayyybe a Daze or Pierce, to try and squeeze in a few Stifles. 2 actually seems like a good number for me, as it's easy to fit in and swap out. Running less than the playset may seem wrong, but it makes your opponent have to play around more cards, while still giving you the occasional blowout play.

Meantime, I'm still digging Thought Scour. (get it...? )

As for RiP and Dryad Militant, etc.... I'm not too worried. RiP is GOOD, really good, but it doesn't draw a card, costs more, and requires white. Yes decks will run it, but mostly for Dredge, and less so for us. Cantripping is part of why Relic is so good against us, and most control players will still prefer Relic, especially for the maindeck. RiP is also easier to spell pierce. Also, see Delver of Secrets. Sure it slows us down, but is that worth the risk of a turn 2 flipped Delver? RiP looks pretty bad in that situation.

I feel bad for Dredge/Reanimate though.... as if Leyline, Cage, and Surgical weren't enough hate as of late....

Militant kinda sucks for us, but not that much. It's doubtful they'll stop all the spells you cast with it, and it's not a particularly great card against us outside of the effect. If they play this on turn 1, sweet, it's not a Hierarch or Mom. Savannah Lions hasn't been great in Legacy for years now, and if it's really a Thorn in your Paw, you can just Bolt it.