Miracles running rampant?

[lordofthepit]

Is Miracles now the clear deck to beat in the format, both in regards to sheer number and power level?

Of the 48 Legacy decks listed at the SCG Invitational, 18 of them are Miracle decks, although some of them scrubbed out (I consider any blue deck that runs Terminus to be a Miracle deck, although some are Stoneblade hybrids). Three of the decks that make top 8 are Miracles or a Miracle-hybrid, although it should be noted that the Swiss format was half Standard. Three of the 7 decks that went 6-1-1 or better in the Legacy portion of Swiss were Miracles or a Miracle-hybrid. (On the other hand, according to the Invitational Metagame breakdown, RUG represented 20% of the metagame, with Countertop and Stoneblade representing 16% and 11%, respectively, of which most of not all were probably Miracle decks, so perhaps those numbers above overstate the representation.)

At the recent events held at my local gaming store (Card Kingdom), at least 30% of the field (including myself) was playing Miracles or Miracle Blade.

This represents a much higher proportion of the field (~30%) than any deck I've ever seen, including Survival, RUG, or Maverick--probably twice as much, in fact. While I respect the deck as being skill-intensive and relatively "fair" (by Legacy standards), I was wondering why no one complained about this deck. I absolutely hate rounds going to time and I hate playing the mirror. I might just switch to a deck that crushes Miracles that doesn't flat out lose to the rest of the field (combo).

Does anyone else feel this way? Granted, I will admit I'm a bit biased because I'm not a control player at heart, but I'm playing this deck only because I perceive it to be the best in the format.

Edit: Disclaimer, nothing needs to be banned, blah blah. I will stop whining, get better, etc. I'm just asking about why no one recognizes this as the clear deck to beat in Legacy right now.

[JDK]

The deck just lets you get away with mistakes more easily than other ones (thanks to the miracle mechanic, a high amount of removal and the lock-combo), which is why it sees so much play. It's a strong deck, but most of the times I just get annoyed by idiots using SDT improperly and stalling the game.

Sure, it gets significantly stronger with skill (like almost every deck), but it's like the SnT deck of control.

[DLifshitz]

I was wondering why no one complained about this deck.

It's relatively new, so people won't have had time to get bored with it. It's not particularly frustrating to play against, either. I'm sure it has some bad matchups (Gobs? Merfolk?), perhaps some people who play the deck can shed light on that.

As of today, blue-based control has been forced out of Standard and Modern almost completely, so I think it can be forgiven for being one of the strongest decks in Legacy.

[Fizzeler]

To be fair Control currently does well against a good amount of the field (Save Omni-Tell), I have no problems with Miracles as a guy who plays Prison Decks I would be more than happy to see Control resurge in Legacy

[JDK]

It's not particularly frustrating to play against, either.

What's NOT frustrating about playing against miracles, Counterbalance and SDT?

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

UW Miracles definitely is one of the best decks in the format, not the best deck, mind you, but a top choice. I think the comparatively high representation is due to a number of factors:

- novelty value: The deck is relatively new, meaning people are curious to try it out.
- recent success: The deck has started to perform well on the SCG circuit during the last month (it also has been putting up numbers over here for a while) and people want to get a feel for the new kid on the block. Flavor of the month and all that.
- unadapted metagame: The fact that it's new also means most people haven't figured out correct boarding plans yet (see for example Todd Anderson's RUG SB for one that is definitely ready for UW) or simply haven't adapted sideboards yet, making the deck a better choice.
- skillset exploitation: let's face it, many Legacy players are pretty bad at playing against Wrath-variants (understandably so, given that there hasn't been a playable Wrath in Legacy for years), which means being able to have one at a relevant cost is particularly impressive for the moment (until people learn how you beat Wraths again).
- Player bias the first: There are a lot of people that love playing blue-based hard control (like me, for example) that simply didn't have a a good choice among the tier decks (instead of a sweet personal brew) and therefore chose to forgo playing control. Now that there is an actual tier one control deck (for the first time since Mental Misstep, and even then it wasn't as obvious, what with all the Stoneforges of that era), those players can finally run that kind of deck again - and do.
- Player bias, the second: Same as above, just substitute blue-based hard control with Counterbalance.
- Maverick: This is the best blue-based deck against Maverick by a significant margin and a lot of people that refuse to play S&T (not liking combo or disliking the simplistic feel) are still sick of losing to the GW midrange deck.

As for bad matchups, Goblins is a horrible horrible deck to play Miracles against - probably one of the reasons that deck is also on the rise currently (that and the dearth of storm combo).

What's NOT frustrating about playing against miracles, Counterbalance and SDT?

You don't have to deal with dumb undercosted threats like Delver, Geist, SFM and Goyf or stupid overpowered fatties like Emrakul and Griselb? Give me a nice spell-based control-grind any day =p

[Fizzeler]

The only thing frustration about SDT Counterbalance is watching people in a Mirror Match, no this is legitimately one of the most interactive yet boring mirrors to watch

Granted I still love watching the Miracles Vs Lands match and see how long game 1 takes (happened today, they shuffled up with 7 minutes left on the clock, but for the most part literally nothing happens for about 15 turns)

Goblins has also reappeared recently thanks to Cavern Of Souls and the resurge of control it has good match-ups against many non-combo decks, if the meta shifts to Miracles maybe we will see Dredge pop up more often

[JDK]

"The lesser evil, imo" doesn't diminish the frustration of getting "miracled" (maybe "witnessing a miracle" should be the correct term from now on) or locked out. This doesn't even include the frustration of being forced to a draw or time, because they cannot find their Angel dumping finisher (screw you, lock decks).

Also, if you don't want to face "stupid overpowered fatties", you shouldn't promote SnT lists. ;)

[Lord Seth]

I think it's amusing that the Miracle card everyone was freaking out about (Temporal Mastery) is a nonentity whereas the Miracle cards people were largely ignoring at first are the ones that are actually having an impact.

[Hardcore]

Probably because an extra turn won't Win you the game in legacy (as opposed to vintage)?

[JDK]

I think it's amusing that the Miracle card everyone was freaking out about (Temporal Mastery) is a nonentity whereas the Miracle cards people were largely ignoring at first are the ones that are actually having an impact.

You are mistaking "everyone" for "DragoFireheart".

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think it's amusing that the Miracle card everyone was freaking out about (Temporal Mastery) is a nonentity whereas the Miracle cards people were largely ignoring at first are the ones that are actually having an impact.

Ahem;

That's... insanely good. Terribly ironically superior in pretty much every way except pitching to Force of Will to Temporal Mastery in Blade Control decks.

[Lord Seth]

You are mistaking "everyone" for "DragoFireheart".

Okay, obviously I wasn't being literal with "everyone." But it was definitely the miracle card that was getting the most hype and causing the most panic by far (and I'm not solely talking about The Source), whereas the others seemed to mostly be ignored at first.

[Lemnear]

I think it's amusing that the Miracle card everyone was freaking out about (Temporal Mastery) is a nonentity whereas the Miracle cards people were largely ignoring at first are the ones that are actually having an impact.

Check the threads of the subjects before talking: A Lot of people evaluated the impact of both cards correct (entreat is another one discussed as a throwback to DoJ).

I was arguing with S. Menendian about the impact of an extra Turn in Vintage vs. Legacy stating that temporal Mastery will likely doing less damage than casting a Lightning Bolt within all it's conditional lackluster.

During Spoiler Season a Lot of People Talk Big about cards that will Never see sleeves. Calling People out who are simply just excited about a New product isn't cool because it's the nature of man. Same with new iPhones, New movies, games etc. Which are advertised and People camp in Front of stores for days just to have the NEW product Day 1 because IT EXCITES THEM

Survival of the fittest was way more dominant. In the last few months of it being legal, Survival decks were at least 50% of the starcity top 8s. The last local tournament in that time was kind of hilarious - 14 out of 26 people had Survival of the Fittest in their deck. You know something is wrong when a third of the field have Wispmare in their main deck.

Again a survival discussion? If People played wispmare as MD Solution I finally know WHY survival was able to become the DtB back then.

Playing bad "solutions" and then spam Legacy forums with QQ seem a logic consequence /rant

(This is Not adressing you Nilla in Case you might feel so because of the quote. The Part bout the wispmares is hilarious. Thx for sharing)

[sdematt]

I think Miracles is by far a really good choice right now, mostly because people have no idea how to actually attack the deck. They think their sideboard plan of running some Disenchants or Spell Pierces will do enough work, but it doesn't. I wrote something in the Rock thread that was a somewhat relevant analysis of Miracles, but from attacking it using GWB Rock. Still might be worth reading for some maybe?

So, 3 hours of Miracles grinding later, I'm back with meaningful results and paraphrasing of discussions I had with Nixon, a level 2 Judge and the best Miracles player locally.

We talked over a few different issues, mainly why I was losing. He joked about playing a garbage deck with 1 for 1's with answers and no way to dig for them, leading to many times when we'll die with the wrong answer in hand. While this might be slightly true in that we are a reactive deck with a lower count of card manipulation, I don't think be truly even against the field is necessarily a bad thing.

So, we discussed sideboards, maindeck configurations, swapping in and out, card selection, etc. The first conclusion we came to is Rock never has to lose to Miracles, ever. You can construct Junk in such a way that you will win the Miracles matchup way more often than not. However, you'd have to sacrifice so many matchups to do this, it may not be worth it. Point taken, and I have said this before. It's all about finding a middle ground where you're still doing well against the field.

We discussed Hymn over Inquisition, and we came up with the fact that in the main, you want Inquisition all day everyday. Why? Firstly, if you're on the play, you immediately Thoughtseize to take Top. Every game I won consisted of me nuking Top in some fashion, whereas the games I lost usually went into Topdeck mode with me having nothing, and him having nothing and a Top. Top/Library manipulation really controls how this matchup goes. Sylvan Library is also REALLY good here, and the same with Dark Confidant. The Miracles player has a touch time interacting on the Stack without Counterbalance, and Top just filters all the good things for better board and stack interaction. They MUST kill Dark Confidant immediately of face losing to not only beatdown, but you wrecking them with great answers.

You want Inquisition to take Top, Counterbalance, or another relevant card like EE/Shackles. Hymn, while in his words, "a very decent card against us," doesn't do enough to necessarily warrant its inclusion in the maindeck in a meta with a ton of RUG in it as well. You want the targeted discard to take the things you want, not strip a land + Land Tax or something like that.

Abrupt Decay should take over more slots was another conclusion. Abrupt Decay was ridiculously effective, taking out Counterbalances, Shackles, EE, Delvers, Goyfs, Cliques, and Equipment/Sylvan Libraries. It was highly effective against Counterbalance and I loved seeing it all day. The relevancy of uncounterable, instant speed Vindicate was incredibly relevant.

For now, I'm moving to 3 Decay 2 Pulse, since again, "Why is this a question? A 3-mana do nothing or a conditional, uncounterable 2-mana do something?" Now while this statement is a bit hyperbolic, the choice does makes sense. We have other ways to interact with Jace and Batterskull, so 2 Pulse is still fine since instant and uncounterable makes up for the shortfalls of 3-CMC or less.

Back to the Miracles matchup. We agreed that we need to attack on a plane not tangential to creature combat. Creatures are good, but laying 1-2 out at a time and applying pressure is easily the best answer when playing against 1-CMC Wrath effects. That's also how I won my games: apply enough pressure that there's a clock, but not enough to get blown out.

Discard, while good, isn't the end-all-be-all in this matchup. You can't assume you win because you play Discard, it just helps you out a bit, and doesn't stop anyone from Topping into the goodness.

As for the Surgical Extraction argument, again we came to the same conclusions - the plan in itself isn't inherently awful, it's just depends how you're achieving it. If you're boarding out 10 cards with nothing more to bring in except Surgicals, it's probably fine. If you're cutting relevant cards for Extirpate effects, you're going to have a problem. There's no real card advantage generated from Surgical Extraction. It's a strict 1-for-1 at the moment, and doesn't really provide virtual card advantage either. There isn't a Moat negating a bunch of Goblins, therefore providing virtual card advantage by making them less than optimal. This is basically nebulous card advantage where you hope to avoid seeing additional copies of that card in the future. This isn't a combo deck we're playing against. But again, if you're bringing out useless cards and bringing in Surgicals, it's not bad at all, but not NOT remove good cards to bring Surgical in, since it just isn't enough. I'm bringing out 6 slots to bring 6 in for my board, and there's no Surgicals coming in. There's some value in mucking Snapcaster, but not enough in my opinion.

The better hate cards against this deck are Gaddock Teeg, Choke, and Planeswalkers. My friend commented Choke mixed with discard, permanent removal, and Gaddock Teeg where the ideal mix of answers he doesn't want to see. Choke locking up a mana heavy deck, along with Gaddock Teeg sapping the power of his Miracles spells does do wonders on him. However, Gaddock Teeg will get bounced or removed, it will happen, so you need a mix of threats to get there.

We argued about the Thalia plan, and came to the conclusion that unless you're running a crap-ton of creatures, Thalia really isn't for you. Additionally, Thalia doesn't matter as much since the reason why you're playing Terminus is to be able to pay the Thalia tax and clear the board. It's better than nothing for sure, but perhaps not what you're looking for depending on your list that you're playing.

I argued we required a slot that was both good against Combo as well as Miracles. Thalia was one option, but so was straight up Hymn to Tourach. He said the card was decent against him, and probably better than other answers. Hymn doesn't slow you down in this matchup (Thalia would), and works to rip apart the hand. Hymn should complement additional targeted discard, not replace it. It's also good in the Combo matchup. Perhaps not quite as good as Thalia, but still pretty good.

I said I wanted more Chokes, but again, that doesn't help your combo matchup any more than dedicated blue-hate. Hymn does fill the role enough, and we have the slots to remove.

Since most of this may be a bit specific to Junk, there's a few main points:

1) The miracles Counterbalance curve is now REALLY good. Having relevant 3, 4, and 5 drops means something.

2) Top is by far the best card you can start with. Kill it immediately, or have them discard it.

3) Don't overextend into a board sweep.

4) Plays cards that kill Counterbalance dead, not just might kill it. Grip, REB (when casting it), Abrupt Decay.

5) Thalia by herself might not be enough, since Temrinus is still easily castable for 2.

There's other things, but some major things that some people still haven't absorbed yet. Grind Miracles for hours: this is how you learn.

-Matt

[Lord Seth]

Check the threads of the subjects before talking: A Lot of people evaluated the impact of both cards correct (entreat is another one discussed as a throwback to DoJ).

And I never stated that no one got it right, unless you actually took my clearly non-literal usage of "everyone" literally. I merely pointed out that the Miracle card that was getting all the hype and panic--again, not just here--was the one that doesn't see much play whereas the ones that see real play to the point someone started a threat complaining about them--Terminus and Entreat the Angels--seemed to be rather overlooked or downplayed. I just found it rather amusing is all.

I was arguing with S. Menendian about the impact of an extra Turn in Vintage vs. Legacy stating that temporal Mastery will likely doing less damage than casting a Lightning Bolt within all it's conditional lackluster.

I'm not sure what this has to do with what I was saying. But good for you?

During Spoiler Season a Lot of People Talk Big about cards that will Never see sleeves. Calling People out who are simply just excited about a New product isn't cool because it's the nature of man.

Again, not sure what this has to do with what I was saying.

Back on topic. Miracles does seem to be one of the best decks right now, and a friend of mine thinks it's the best deck in the format, period. Terminus and Entreat the Angels do a lot to power up CounterTop and smooth out its weaknesses. Still, it probably won't take too long for the meta to adjust to it, especially with Abrupt Decay coming in, which just ends the deck. Then again, Black/Green isn't a particularly common color combination in Legacy.

[lordofthepit]

Survival of the fittest was way more dominant. In the last few months of it being legal, Survival decks were at least 50% of the starcity top 8s. The last local tournament in that time was kind of hilarious - 14 out of 26 people had Survival of the Fittest in their deck. You know something is wrong when a third of the field have Wispmare in their main deck.

Survival was way more dominant (in terms of numbers/top 8s/etc.), but I don't think it ever showed the volume Miracles is. Basically, more people play Miracles than Survival did, although Survival still put more individuals in the top 8 of various tournaments.

The First Pick Games metagame was way different than the Mirkwood one. Hardly anyone ran Survival.

[Tao]

Overload this thread.

(Rewrite this thread for its Overload cost. If you do, change its text by replacing all instances of "Miracle" with "Brainstorm" and multiply the numbers of Top8 performances.)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Overload this thread.

(Rewrite this thread for its Overload cost. If you do, change its text by replacing all instances of "Miracle" with "Brainstorm" and multiply the numbers of Top8 performances.)

8.5/10, would read again.

[catmint]

Miracles is a very good deck and I like that you can take UWx control decks into totally different directions.

To answer the initial question if Miracles is the most popular and best deck in the format: No - current spike in popularity is not a problem, just a trend.

There are 4 Tier 1 decks, which all have the ability to adapt to the meta in order to stay competitive.

Esperblade has a pretty good miracle matchup. 3-4 Engeneered Explosives answer Entreat & Counterbalance very well. you can cast onl 1/2 of lingering souls & use batterskull to play around Terminus. It will mostly be about Jace. Discard plays a huge role.

Maverick needs Mother + Teeg (I saw 3 Teeg in 75 recently) and of course still needs to play smart and not overextend due to Miracles running Karakas.

RUG needs to play smart (not overextend, save counters for entreat or stuff like baneslayer angel) and adapt the SB. I felt ok playing long games with my Stifle build and 2 Red-blasts, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Krosan Grip, 2 Sulfuric Vortex, 1 Envelop in my SB. Surgical can also be an option to ruin their day.

And most of the other Tier decks like Show&Tell, Storm, Goblins, Dredge, Reanimator, Merfolk... all also not completely invalidated by this Miracle control variant.