Hey,
I read many many pages of this thread and of course, I haven't got written for a few days but I have one question.
Over the last year it is always the same discussion: Shall I play Instigator or Piledriver? Warchiefs and/or Chieftains? Splash or no splash?
There is no answer. It depends on too many things. I always tell it people in our German Legacyforum. You alwwys have to mind your own meta, your playing style and chose the cards for the deck and SB.
We have more playable cards than space in the deck and there are Situations, where a Piledriver can be better than a Instigator, where a Pyrokinesis seems to be better than a perish or something else.
There is no golden way. I know, we have metachanges from time to time, but we always go in circles, diskussing the same facts, don't we?
Cedric's video is nice, he makes some interesting points.
I am into playing only one piledriver as well. He makes up for it with the instigator+chieftain package, while I'm focusing my build on mogg war marshall+warchief+krenko. I don't really miss piledriver that much.
I also share his view on leyline of the void.
What I don't really like is the full playset of warren instigators, and the total lack of warchiefs. Also, isn't 24 lands a bit too much? I understand these are choices based on personal preference, and I don't really argue with results. It's nice to see that different takes on the same deck are tournament viable, makes our archetype less predictable.
It was indeed helpful analysis on cabal therapy, which was something I was decided to test. I'm still not sold on instigator+chieftain though.
Finally, about show and tell hate, I like angel of despair more than warren weirding.
Not really. Many players have 23 lands + Skirk Prospector in there deck, and a set of Warchiefs to cut the cost down. The fact he has neither Skirk Prospector or Warchief justifies the 24 lands investment. I think he made the right choice for his build.Also, isn't 24 lands a bit too much?
This past weekend Goblins made top 8 AND top 12 of the SCG Invitational, plus it WON the Legacy Open. It has become a very consistent player at major tournaments. This is interesting because there haven't really been any new cards printed as late aside from Krenko to push the deck back into popularity, and Krenko isn't even featured in all the builds. Well, that's actually a lie. Cavern of Souls has been hugely helpful in making Goblins a force again. Caverns has essentially given Goblins a strong advantage over U decks while still maintaining its ability to late-game creature decks. It also makes fast Lackey starts (the bane U combo decks) much more difficult to disrupt. Meanwhile Thalia and RUG Delver continue to make life hell for Combo. This basically opens the door for Goblins to get through to the top 8. It will be cool to see if we can sustain this run through the year's end. I'm hoping so. I've always believed in the explosive power of the deck and it's been satisfying to see Gobbos doing so well.
That's just because, aside from Cavern and Krenko, nothing's changed. The closest we get to Innovation is when someone cuts Piledriver and Warchief for Winstigator and Chieftain. Well, people have been writing about that on the Source since forever so who cares? And Angel of Dispair isn't exactly a revolutionary piece of SB tech. It just fits in a Metagame of Show n Tell decks. Goblins is a very stable deck. So long as you have 4 Vial, 4 Lackey, 4 matron, 4 Ringleader, 4 haste-lords the rest is just filler and your results will hinge on your luck of the draw, MUs, and play skill. Ultimately minor changes to decklists won't make the difference between dominating a tournament and scrubbing out.Originally Posted by Pee-Dee-2
Taking this list tomorrow for the final tournament in my store's monthly league:
12 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Mogg Fanatic
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Krenko, Mobb Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Aether Vial
Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Stingscourger
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Chalice of the Void
Any thoughts on the list and what could possibly be done differently? Relevant matchups (those I expect to run into): Dredge, TEPS, High Tide, Elves!, UW Miracles, RUG Delver.
It seems Scrapper is unnecessary MD in your meta.
CotV looks like a good 4off there on the SB, coming in against lots of those.
The 2nd Stingscourger might be unnecessary too. You might want another grave or combo hate.
Other than that, seems like a fine list.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
Scrapper is mostly there to "answer" an Umezawa's Jitte coming from the Elves! deck.
I could probably just go overboard with creature removal in that matchup instead, but I always liked the ability to search out a solution for an active jitte, even if I think it is silly to keep it in the maindeck for one of their sideboard cards.
Just after reading my last sentence I've decided to "scrap" the scrapper and add a MWM back to the maindeck. It's probably "better" against combo and the Goyf decks.
The reasoning behind the 2nd Stingscourger goes like this:
- Against Dredge, they are on the Lady GaGa plan against me. Stingscourger can get rid of her after she resolves and conveniently remove all the bridge's they have already milled into (if they weren't removed already that is).
- The RUG decks play a decent amount of mass removal (4 Pyroclasm and maybe a few more redundant copies (they are kind of gunning for me)), which helps them keep my board clear most of the time. If they resolve a big threat like Tarmogoyf (probably 4/5) or Scavenging Ooze I probably won't have enough goblins to deal with either of them with just gempalm. Stingscourger can buy me some time to set up situations in which gempalm becomes lethal. I side in Relic of Progenitus for this matchup of course, but I reckon it pays to have more outs in such situations. Similar things apply to the sideboard games against UW Miracles (Baneslayer Angel), and some black decks (Tombstalker).
- Against E.Plague I would rather rely on Stingscourger then Gempalm Incinerator in any case (I wouldn't even be that concerned about plague in particular if I had Boartusk Liege (who would be GREAT against all those pyroclasms IMO)).
I started the thread in the Format & Article Discussion subforum complaining about everyone playing Miracles or Miracle Blade, so I took Goblins out for the first time to my local event. I went with the green splash to make sure I didn't lose to Miracles.
I ended up going 3-1, beating MUD, RUG, and the mirror, and ironically, losing to Miracle Blade. Humility is such a backbreaking card, especially if it's followed up with a Terminus, Jitte, or Batterskull. Are Miracle Blade decks actually supposed to be a really favorable matchup, or am I playing it wrong? I don't want to go out of my element to play a deck that I'm not that familiar with under the incorrect assumption that it has more favorable matchups than it actually does.
(For what it's worth, I can imagine how pure Miracles would be very favorable, and Goblins is a blast to play as long as you don't run into too much hate.)
If they don't have Moat or Humility, its strongly in goblins favor.
I am not sure if you just got unlucky against them, but when I play against Miracles, I usually try to deny them as much white mana as possible. But I run 4x port, which helps to cut them off white or double white indefinately.
Since lordofthepit was talking about a deck called "Miracle Blade" i guess it has some Stoneforge Mystics and is therefore different from the "Miracle Control" that thatoneguy is reffering to.
lordofthepit, could you please post a decklist of the deck you have trouble with, so that we have a good starting point for provding help with the MU?
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
MiracleBlade is essentially stoneblade + miracles. A list took 2nd at SCG Portland, only beaten by D&T(!)
finished 2-1-1 (3rd) yesterday in my city in Argentina with gobbos
Loss vs Nic-Fit 0-2 (bad draws)
Won vs MUD 2-0 (t1 lackey t2 siege gang t3 chieftain, g2 pulverize)
Won vs Combo elves 2-0 (just violence and incinerators)
Draw vs Maverick 1-1 (color screw)
my list
4 wastelands
3 badlands
3 rishadan ports
4 caverns of souls
4 bloodstained mire
3 mountains
4 lackey
3 piledriver
1 stingscourger
1 krenko
4 matrons
4 ringleaders
4 incinerators
1 chieftain
4 warchiefs
1 mogg fanatic
1 siege gang commander
1 tuk tuk
3 warren weirding
1 skirk prospector
1 sharpshooter
4 aether vial
1 mogg war marshall
side
3 surgicals
2 pulverize
1 shattering spree
3 cabal theraphy
3 red elemental blast
3 pyrokinesis
i'll cut 1 port for the 4th badlands, what do you think about the list?
It worries me that so many nonbasics are finding their way into goblins lists these days. Out of 21 lands you run 3 basic mountains so you have room for fetches and Badlands to enable you to run Weirding and CT. This is the sort of manabase I see losing to Wasteland Stifle, PoP, and Waste lock. Is running 3 edict effects really worth inviting that vulnerability?
Cavern has basically forced us to cut 4 Mountains because caverns ability is just too potent to not play. But running 4 caverns makes it more difficult to cast sb cards. You can't cast Weirding off of a cavern and a mountain after all. And you also can't cast that Pulverize off a Cavern either.
I would cut 1 Port and 1 Mogg Fanatic for 2 more mountains. MF is good but isn't going to make much of an impact as a one of. You've already got Skirk to sac gobbos anyway.
yep, i was color-screwed a lot, so 1 port needs to go, maybe 1 more mountain insted of the MF would be good too
That would in fact be the player I lost to.
The MiracleBlade decks are a worse matchup than straightup Miracles. It should still be slightly favorable. Blow up their Batterskull and their deck is quite a bit worse. Then they're jamming a control deck with a bunch of squires which is pretty terrible. You can also run a pair of Krosan Grips in the SB too which take care of silly enchantments as well as equipment and other misc. artifacts.
"We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."
I think its a good match either miracle blade or miracle control. It's not that hard to just kill the stoneforge mystic, or kill the germ token, or even tutor up TSH/tuktuk and just kill the batterskull.
Even if you can't kill the batterskull, things like MWM and Skirk Prospector give you tons of time before they can kill you. Krenko is also amazing here as well.
Fighting batterskull is a bit more difficult, but I think the same game plan of grinding them out with card advantage still crushes them as long as you don't extend into a terminus. Even if they go up to 30 something life off a batterskull, if you deal with the batterskull, 4 power worth of goblins on the field at a time can take it home without overextending.
The main difference between the MUs is counterbalance vs stoneforge. Counterbalance beeing terrible against us, and stoneforge being a speed bump.
that sounds reasonable. so miracle is a good matchup.
what is the game plan against blade control ? :) that matchup worries me a lot :)
My plan was basically put a decent clock on them (around 4 power) and deal with batterskull/SFM as necessary. Then don't over extent into terminus.
There are other nuances as well, its obviously impossible to cover every situation in a couple paragraphs. Mostly its trying to figure who the beatdown is, and when it is ok to speed up the clock to end the game sooner than the opponent can fire off a terminus. If you think you can contain the terminus, go for it, but leave a back up plan in case you fail.
The threat of batterskull makes you speed up, the threat of terminus makes you slow down, you need to find a good balance.
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