u/b deaths shadow

[xfxf]

I've seen Gerry's deck tech for the BUG version yesterday but I'm not convinced the deck really needs green. In his list basically he replaces Confidants with Goyfs and Ponders with Sylvan library. Replacing Hymns with Cabal Therapy on the other hand could be interesting.

[metronome2charisma]

I've seen Gerry's deck tech for the BUG version yesterday but I'm not convinced the deck really needs green. In his list basically he replaces Confidants with Goyfs and Ponders with Sylvan library. Replacing Hymns with Cabal Therapy on the other hand could be interesting.

The way i look at it is that therepy with snapcaster mage(because you get a card back from the snapcaster then you sack it to therepy) is like a hymn but you get to pick the cards and you're already playing with thoughtseize and probe so why wouldn't you play 4 more thoughtseize that are easier to pay for...
Green i think really does work in this deck..splash for 2 sylvans and mongoose or goyf or Scavenging ooze( i think mongoose) because deaths shadow is this decks goyf and we need something they cant just swords or path or bolt or gftt and goose fits the bill..
IF i ran green i would also run a single life from the loam...
In my build the green dosn't replace bob becasue i run snapcaster.. in all honesty i know that one of the cards getting the boot would be a force(only running three with the 4th in the board)
I don't think deathrite shaman is rite for THIS deck but i have a set preordered because that card is INSANE nuts good in legacy...scavenging ooze is a forty dollar rare this guy will be ten bucks at least considering he WILL see play in standard control decks fuck maybe even in zombies for the mirror..

[xfxf]

I'm testing the following list:

4x Death's Shadow
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Snapcaster Mage

4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy

2x Dismember
2x Snuff Out
1x Diabolic Edict

1x Island
1x Swamp
4x Underground Sea
2x Watery Grave
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Verdant Catacombs

The SCM-Probe-Therapy trio seems vicious. I tested the deck against RUG, UR Delver, High Tide and Merfolk. Even against RUG and UR I don't think the deck is on the back foot. Once you go down to 8 life your opp. will be mostly emtpy handed and if you are able to land a Death's Shadow in that late game they will have a very hard time making that alpha strike with an empty hand. Every bolt coming short a kill will be returned as a faster clock. Also against combo, this much discard plus counter are more than enough.

Against Merfolk if you can make them discard their lords early enough or hit them with removal before things go out of hand you can push ahead with a Delver or take over the late game with a huge Death's Shadow. Basically the trick is making your opponent go on topdeck mode for threats by the time you are at 8 life and then take over with Death's Shadow.

I'm yet to test it against UW decks but increased amount of discard coupled with SCM is a very effective early game strategy.

[Final Fortune]

I think you guys are running too much disruption and too few threats when you play with stuff like Snapcaster, Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy packages, getting Shadow of Death RFGed with Swords to Plowshares is a pretty huge set back, and having the additional beat stick in Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker gives you a little more longevity.

[xfxf]

In fact getting Death's Shadow rfg'ed gains you back all the life loss so means you have used all those thoughtseizes without drawbacks. The strategy is to push with 1 or 2 threats just like RUG so it doesn't really matter if you have a Delver or a second Shadow that's pushing after the StP. However 4 StP + 3 Terminus is indeed a problem because SCM isn't really a threat itself and 8 actual threats could be very light in some matchups.

[GradStudentGuy]

I have been playing this deck a bit. But have been running two Gut Shots main and have been loving it. Its basically a free giant growth or spot removal against maverick and a bunch of other decks. Best part is that you don't need to splash into a third color to play it.

[Hanni]

I seen several posts that mentioned "one-shotting" people with Death's Shadow, and growing him to 23/23, etc. I skimmed through and didn't see anyone mention it, but... how are you legally making Death's Shadow larger than a 13/13, exactly?

[Mr. Safety]

I know that was a retorical question, but the answer is 'they aren't getting it bigger than 13/13, unless they are using Phyrexian Unlife.'

I think the deck is janky, but solid. Decks that race are really making your Death's Shadow bigger...but then its just a well timed Swords/Path and you're sunk. Path seems unfair against this deck, I mean what would you do with a spare land? Not much with so many free/1-cc spells. I think the deck would really benefit from Standstill...but at that point why not play Dreadstill? I have a friend that is destroying his local scene with U/r Dreadstill. He plays Delvers, burn, Forces, etc...basically U/r delver but with a Stifle-Nought package. Really solid deck.

I think this deck gets owned by anything stompy-related (turn 1 Chalice, turn 2 Trinisphere, gg?) and the miracle control lists are getting a swords to plowshares without life gain with Terminus. Isn't miracles using Counterbalance again, too? Seems like a bad matchup. I also think that aggro/tempo builds like this tend to fall flat without the burn. I can't imagine this deck being better than traditional naya zoo and that isn't in contention right now (and its faster with more reach.)

Just some thoughts...I may be talking out of my ass, but there you go...

[Hanni]

I know that was a retorical question, but the answer is 'they aren't getting it bigger than 13/13, unless they are using Phyrexian Unlife.'

How? Regardless if going into negative life, how will it get any larger than 13/13? The creature is a 13/13 creature that gets -X/-X from your life total. At lower than 0 life, does the negative life total use algebra to turn the -X/-X clause into +X/+X? That seems a bit odd from a card design standpoint (albeit logical mathematically).

[TraxDaMax]

I was thinking about Cabal Therapy too when I saw Thoughtseize and G.Probe.
A card that might help the Cabal Therapy package, and provide lifeloss is Bitterblossom.
Don't know if it helps though.

[Final Fortune]

In fact getting Death's Shadow rfg'ed gains you back all the life loss so means you have used all those thoughtseizes without drawbacks. The strategy is to push with 1 or 2 threats just like RUG so it doesn't really matter if you have a Delver or a second Shadow that's pushing after the StP. However 4 StP + 3 Terminus is indeed a problem because SCM isn't really a threat itself and 8 actual threats could be very light in some matchups.

No, losing life to cast Thoughtseize or Snuff Out isn't an issue to begin with, all you care about is losing life in order to facilitate your Death's Shadow, and once you gain life you have to lose life all over again in order to turn him into a threat. Vs. Control based decks it's a serious problem.

[xfxf]

There's a slight trick here about your lifeloss and losing a Death's Shadow to StP. Yes the deck wants to be at low life for Death's Shadow to be big, however when it gets removed you gain all the life back so you are not a sitting duck at a very low life total until you find another. It just becomes a tempo loss. You start losing life again (and the deck has a lot of ways to do that) until you find another Death's Shadow to land. If you have two of them on board however that's a pretty bad blow as you lose both of them.

[Final Fortune]

I think it's another reason to take a look at /g, between Tarmogoyf adding 4 threats to the deck, Sylvan Library lets you turn their STPs into card advantage while reducing your life total to empower the next Death's Shadow.

[gkraigher]

Isn't nights whisper great in this deck.

[Kyle]

I've been digging GerryT's original decklist. It's fun, unexpected (right now), and can be super-effective. Don't forget to use Brainstorm and Ponder to help your topdecks, otherwise you'll find you're killing yourself quite a bit due to the Confidants.

And for obvious reasons, this deck has major problems against just about every black deck unless you can get Hymn + Thoughtseize online right away.

[Mr. Safety]

How? Regardless if going into negative life, how will it get any larger than 13/13? The creature is a 13/13 creature that gets -X/-X from your life total. At lower than 0 life, does the negative life total use algebra to turn the -X/-X clause into +X/+X? That seems a bit odd from a card design standpoint (albeit logical mathematically).

You're right, it can only be a 13/13...my math skills, along with my common sense, seem to be failing me...

It seems to me that at that point it should be attack for 13, Rite of Consumption ftw.

[Mr. Safety]

Isn't nights whisper great in this deck.

Sign in Blood is better, I think...but there shouldn't be ANY REASON to avoid Dark Confidant. *Not* using Bob seems foolish.

[lochlan]

You're right, it can only be a 13/13

This is incorrect. Read the rulings, guys!

From gatherer:

If your life total is less than 0 and an effect (such as the one from an opponent's Abyssal Persecutor) is keeping you from losing the game, Death's Shadow's ability will actually increase its power and toughness. For example, if your life total is -2, Death's Shadow gets +2/+2.

[Vacrix]

This is incorrect. Read the rulings, guys!

From gatherer:

Exactly. Thats what I was saying earlier, though not with the ruling.

Also, note that with Phyrexian Unlife on the field, you can basically one shot your opponent with Death's Shadow. Your life total can get far below 0.

The advantages of Phyrexian Unlife is that you can keep paying life for all of your spells without having to do something suboptimal like hard cast Snuff Out for 4. That makes the spell shitty once you're ahead. So the deck is really good at getting ahead and then it can't play a bunch of its spells if you choose not to play Unlife. Basically you are trying to get to the point where you can play Unlife that way you can pay as much life as you want, therefore keeping the advantage of amazing free/undercosted spells including while also holding onto the advantage of Confidant to overwhelm your opponent with resources... while having a virtual +10 life to soak up whatever damage your opponents might sneak through. THEN the other advantage is basically having a Marit Lage-token-sized Death Shadow that hits for lethal. You can think of Death's Shadow in the UB builds as a huge creature when you get ahead by putting yourself at a vulnerable life total (to reach at least), or in UBw you can think of it as a huge, extremely undercosted, pass-the-turn, win condition.

EDIT:
This is actually why I was moving toward a build that plays Dismembers and Snapcaster over Delvers and Snuff Outs (though also a few copies of Snuff Out). You don't need to be aggressive early. You want to play as much control as possible, lay down Unlife to secure your position and then find Death's Shadow.

[Namida]

Exactly. Thats what I was saying earlier, though not with the ruling.

The advantages of Phyrexian Unlife is that you can keep paying life for all of your spells without having to do something suboptimal like hard cast Snuff Out for 4.

Note that you can't pay life you don't have, so Snuff Out is still suboptimal if you have 3 or less life.