@qweerios, I tried your previous bug list with a couple of tweaks versus a miracles deck. We did 5 test games (all preboard) and I lost each one. Some of the main problems I encountered were jace, clique/karakas combo, and ironically, counterbalance. The root of the problem all started with him landing a jace and subsequently countering my pulses. He then ended up floating a 5 and 6 with countertop in one game, basically locking me out of my threats. Another game he got by using clique/karakas to protect jace while floating a 3 with balance to counter deed/pulse.
The matchup felt rather difficult as fow basically become another hardcastable counterspell after 1-2 turns and a resolved jace just gives them enough counters to close out the game (terminus also deals with thrun rather nicely). I should mention that I didn't get to resolve a therapy in any of the matches (either not drawn at all or was locked out by balance), but I was wondering how you dealt with jace.
Another concern was that I was rarely happy to draw a liliana in this matchup--miracles have more tops than nic fit as well as a greater capacity to topdeck something amazing (entreat/terminus). In general, the symmetrical discard felt lackluster without loam or fires to break that symmetry. Perhaps I'm using her wrong as the only decks I've used her in had those elements to turn her +1 into card advantage.
Qweerios I know you're a pretty staunch supporter of the no Dryad Arbor camp. I'm curious about the presence of Birds of Paradise in your new BUG list. One of your arguments against the Arbor was because you can usually just wait to Zenith for 1 and get an Explorer. When are you Zenithing for Birds instead? Is it for Merfolk to tap for blue without needing to fetch an Island? Blocker for Delver? Just curious about your reasoning.
Me too. We don't run any equipment to make use of the flying, and chumping delver for one turn doesn't seem all that appealing. Why not at least go with an elf that can kill a regular delver and can still ping your opponent?
Oh and I forgot to suggest to BlackMetalSheep try out Diabolic Intent in that Innocent Blood slot!
Yeah, I have already play 2x Diabolic Intent in GBw versione and I try it in the Innocent slot because I always want 6 sac-outlet!! ;)Originally Posted by HoneyT
@Qweerios Do you consider 2 Thragtusk to always be overkill? I always like playing control decks with just barely enough threats to win the game, but I've ran into multiple situations where my one Thragtusk gets swordsed and when I'm GSZing again I really want a second. For this reason, I've been using 2 Thragtusk and enjoying it.
Another thing I would like to ask people: a lot of the time when I play a Liliana I am very reluctant to use her discard ability, because it often ends up where I have one or two cards in my hand, at least one of which is a Thragtusk/Titan, and my opponent has four cards in hand. Therefore, the discard ability hurts me more than my opponent. Am I wrong? Is it better to just hope that I topdeck another threat/witness soon enough? I understand that we're better at topdecking than most, but this always seems like I'm making myself topdeck while they still have options. Should I just not use Liliana during one of these turns?
Ayotte, you're still on Scapewish, right? The rules are a little different for Scapewish than for other versions, I feel. I strongly believe that 2 Thragtusks is correct for that version, and periodically have even entertained the idea of adding a 3rd. Thragtusk is not just an effective beatstick for Scapewish, it also buys you an inordinate amount of time, and really time is all Scapewish needs to win. If it can live long enough, it -will- kill you. That's one reason among many why I defend Huntmaster so voraciously.
I could see running double Tusk in BUG, but I think that's a bit of a stretch, and you can probably do better things. I also agree with virtually everything that Qweerios said about BUG in his last post.
As for Liliana, you're not the only one that feels that way, Ayotte. That's all I'm going to say because I don't want to spark that debate AGAIN. My advice would be that if you don't feel she's pulling her weight, cut her.
@Birds of Paradise -- Pretty sure this is adapted technology that I adopted from Paul Ewenstein when I met him at GP Boston. He'd put a Noble Hierarch into his BUG Fit deck, primarily because it improved the Merfolk matchup enormously (you have access to blue mana without needing islands, and usually BUG Fit only needs 1x Island unless you're dropping Jace and winning on the spot). It also provides a mana dork that can be Zenithed for when you don't have a sac outlet for the Explorer and/or are up vs a matchup where you don't really want Explorer g1. Paul preferred Hierarch because of the fringe benefit of having an Exalted trigger that you can Zenith out when you need an extra point of damage, whereas I believe Qweerios is siding with Birds because it produces black. Birds seems fine to me.
@Qweerios -- Speaking in Magic theory terms, I would add a 5th category to the zones that Nic Fit can interact with: library. I'm referring specifically to Cranial Extraction and Memoricide here. Attacking the actual deck can be highly relevant in some matchups, to the point where it can just straight win the matchup for you. BUG Fit is the only deck that I can think of that can actually attack on all 5 angles simultaneously, which is pretty cool IMO.
As for your latest list, are you planning on putting in Abrupt Decays/Vraska? I know you were talking about it a while ago, but since they aren't there now, I'm not sure if you decided against them for some reason. What are you planning on dropping for them, if you're still putting them in?
Also, has E. Plague been better than just straight sweepers for you? I'm thinking specifically of something like Infest that would kill Teeg, Revoker (while ignoring Mom), and other various pains in the ass. E. Plague won't do anything to like Merfolk, but Infest might...both are obviously blowouts vs Goblins and Elves. I don't think Damnation is correct for the backup sweeper, but I do question E. Plague. How has Dust Bowl been since you don't have Loam anymore to abuse it?
Actually, I'm on G/B
The reason I like Damnation over infest in the SB is because Infest does nothing against Opposing KOTR or if a merfolk player has multiple lords out. This is one thing I have been struggling with. I dont know what my back up sweeper should be in GB.
Her eis what I run atm. I had the Trinket Mage version for a while and Abrupt Decay was exactly what the deck needed. Can't ask for more than efficient 2-drop-removal that still ignores Spell Snare. Pulse was too slow and Doom Blades and the others too inconsistent.
I like Trinket Mage more than 2 addional Zeniths because it gives a lot of flexibility. With Explosives, Spellbomb and Top you always have something good in G1 and in G2 it can even grab Chalice/Crypt for more efficient Combo/Yard hate and Needle to fight all sorts of things (Top, Planeswalkers). It also lets you profit more from Primeval Titan when he gets Academy Ruins + Volrath's Stronghold.
A 2/2 split between Damnation and Deed has been working out good. Damnation is more efficient at killing creatures and Decay lets you handle some of the other stuff they might play. It also goes around D&Ts annoying Revoker/Mother of Runes combo. I'd almost always rather draw 1 Deed / 1 Damnation than 2 Deeds and usually it makes no big difference which one it is if I only draw 1.
// Lands
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [B] Underground Sea
2 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Bayou
2 [B] Forest
2 [B] Swamp
2 [B] Island
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
2 [SOM] Trinket Mage
1 [M12] Acidic Slime
1 [CMD] Eternal Witness
1 [M13] Thragtusk
1 [M12] Primeval Titan
// Spells
2 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [RTR] Vraska the Unseen
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [PLC] Damnation
3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [US] Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 [M11] Negate
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
Last edited by Tao; 09-26-2012 at 01:24 PM.
I actually really like the look of that Trinket Mage toolbox aswell as the list as a whole.
I'll post the Planeswalkers centered Gifts version i'm playing atm as soon as i have some more time.
More than anything I love a good Trinket Mage toolbox. I would totally play that list if I had the lands for it. How good is chalice of the void really for this deck though? We do tand to have some key 1 drops.
Me too. Both Explosives and Top are really good in this deck and a Spellbomb won't hurt.
Chalice is not meant as a value card against cantrips. It is there against Storm Combo and Belcher so that you can Trinket Mage and immediately set it at 0 to shut down Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox and LED. It can also come in against Burn and be set on 1. I wouldn't fault you for taking it out if you don't expect any Storm, it is not a key card.
I'm very interested in seeing this. I still haven't figured out a good gifts list with abrupt decay.
22 Lands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
11 Creatures
4 Baleful Strix
1 Consecrated Sphinx
2 Eternal Witness
4 Veteran Explorer
22 Other spells
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Sensei's Divining Top
5 Planeswalkers
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karn Liberated
Sideboard (15)
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Memoricide
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Telemin Performance
3 Thoughtseize
It seems to work quite well, need to test vs Miracles tho, having uncounterable removal for Clique/Counterbalance is quite good tho, aswell as another Pulse and Carpet in the side.
The deck usually ends the game with atleast 2 Walkers on the field, simply because it needs them to win, and is pretty much build to get them online.
I'm thinking of putting in Liliana of Vraska, but i'm not sure yet what to cut as i've been really happy with Karn lately, even at its cmc of 7.
@Viridia -- Telemin Performance is hilarious. I like it.
Is Nightmare good enough in this deck? I'm fully aware that turning it into a draw engine with Strix is quite good, but I feel like there should be something else to do with it. It might be more efficacious just to cut it for a Vraska, to further emphasize your walker package. Alternatively, you could put in a Keiga and take all of the things...
You could also pursue a slight transformational board, with Jarad's Orders into Body Double + fatty. Would only take something like 4 slots, (2 Orders, 1 BD, 1 fatty), and could work with Gifts with a little tinkering as well, if you don't draw into the Orders. It's a thought...not sure how good it is, but there it is. Probably better than Clique.
The Nightmare is mainly to be able to Gifts for Witness/Nightmare/Walker/Walker(Sphinx)
I've had alot of Gifts Piles where people just gave me the Walker/Walker because else i'd also have the Nightmare/Witness engine online. It's mainly there to make sure your Walkers are never going anywhere but into hand->play.
Keiga is actually a good idea i might test that.
Also Orders into Body Double + fatty sounds good, however people probably allready side in graveyard hate :(
It's a very interesting take on it. No GSZ to speak of. If you do keep the recurring nightmare, perhaps switch the consecrated sphinx for a sphinx of uthuun? It gets you 1-4 cards immediately each time you recur.
I never thought of that, might be better then Consecrated Sphinx, i'll try it out as soon as i got some time.
@Tao
Did you test against Goblins? It's still one of the harder matchups as far as i am concerned even if you know what to do with Therapies etc. you will eventually be overwhelmed by the green men. Chieftain + Krenko + Piledriver can one-shot you out of nowhere.
Engineered Plagues seem narrow and need to be doubled to really affect them. Is there anything else besides Crawlspace?
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