[Deck] The Rock

[sdematt]

What the rest of the deck look like? I can suggest Ooze, Qasali, Tracker.

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

4 Confidant
2 goyf
1 qpridemage
1 ooze
1 teeg
4 KotR
2 LSouls

3 tseize
2 iok
3 hymn
4 stp
2 gsz
3 jitte
3 mix diamond
1 sylv lib
1 sdt

23 land

SB:
3 timely reinforcements
3 Thalia
3 ee
4 extirpate
1 teeg
1 choke

[Sughayyer]

@Mirri
I liked it. Have you tested?

[damionblackgear]

1) @daimon: How is it having only 4 discard spells? Seems like you'll be disappointed every game where you don't draw one in your opening hand. Also, combo must be a very hard matchup with only 4 discard (local combo players have come to fear my Hymns )

With only 4 discard spells it's not as often as most people'd like but, I take a different stance on them using removal and counters than most. It also helps with my understanding of the function of a counter.

Say for instance, I play Library, and they destroy it. I've paid 2 mana to have them lose 1 (unless forced or gsz'd for pridemage) card. That means, I got a chance to play a 5th counter. I'm built in a way that you're able to function without any particular aspect of the 75 so their counter and their removal are forms of discard for me. It's part of the reason I play into some counters knowing that they're there.

The combo match-up is hard pre-board (non-snt). That's what the 3 Thalia and extra duress are meant to help with. It's not that I think It's an amazing match-up, but, it's not the worst either.

With decay, the Belcher match-up will get worse since the slot I'm looking at replacing is the one that deals with Tokens, Pulse.

2) also @daimon: seeing as I've become disillusioned with Stoneforge, yes you are kinda the only one still playing it. I jumped ship because it's such a slow clock, to the point where I often lose games I was winning because I couldn't bash hard enough fast enough. Do you ever have speed issues? If not, how the hell do you do it?!

I've never had issues with closing, regardless of Mystic or not.

I play to a mid-late game. My plan from turn 1 is to take the game there. That's the point where Knight really gets to shine; where Liliana is a beast; where Green Sun Zenith has the potential to be it's strongest (you have the mana to play it for whatever you need).

Because my goal is that later point in the game vs most decks, I'm already ready to lose everything else along the way. It also means I've been able to prep for the things that are coming. I get a bonus from knowing so much of play styles and the decks that I usually know, to a pretty good accuracy rate, what's in my opponents hand without a discard spell. That helps a lot as well.

Eventually, she'll get cut from my list. That won't happen until I feel there's a reason to though. Decay is not a reason, but more of a reason (Batterskull's will live longer).

[lavafrogg]

Deathrite shaman is up a dollar! Get them now before they break 10!

[Stuuch]

Deathrite shaman is up a dollar! Get them now before they break 10!

Is someone paying you for hyping that card?

[Mirrislegend]

@ daimon: I VERY much understand what you mean about baiting counterspells. The problem is, baiting and interacting with counterspells takes time. And in that time, RUG eats your face. Yes an endgame Batterskull can change it all. But by that time, they've cantripped into the one last couterspell they need for your last ditch effort

@ deathrite shaman: is there any testing/ concrete evidence of the playability? Until then, please chillax.

@ Sug: yes some testing. In all honesty, everything in it is perfect, except for one major major thing: half the time I draw Goyf, I wish it was Lingering Souls. And half the time I draw Lingering Souls, I wish it was Goyf. It would be vey humorous if it wasn't so irritating!

[sdematt]

Mirri,

I was going to say you should try a split 2/2 of Goyf and Souls instead of 3/3, but it turns out you're already on 2/2 :P

3 Jittes seems excessive, why not 2 Jitte and 2 Sylvan?

I'm not sure what to tell you regarding LS and Goyf. Both are good, but in different matchups.

My suggestion:

4 Confidant
3 goyf
1 qpridemage
1 ooze
1 teeg
4 KotR
15
3 tseize
2 iok
3 hymn
4 stp
2 gsz
2 jitte
3 mix diamond
2 sylv lib
1 sdt
22

23 land

SB:
2 timely reinforcements
3 Thalia
2 EE
4 extirpate
1 teeg
1 choke
2 Lingering Souls

Souls you're probably wanting in the long game, so why not bring it in against Uw from the board?

Where are you going to fit in Abrupt Decays?

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

3 Jitte because it gets destroyed and countered pretty consistently. I would consider going to 2 if I didn't have LSouls (Souls are BERZERK good with equipment, so the equipment must stick in play to maximize the value of LSouls).

LSouls has huge value against all major archetypes except combo, hence it's MD. It's especially murder against RUG. Given that RUG is possibly the most popular deck of today, LSouls justifies it's use very often

Fitting in Abrupt Decay is certainly a concern. Not sure at the moment.

[Sughayyer]

@matt
I see you suggested 5 1cc discards + 3 hymn. Did you test it? Is it effective? I never tried, but it seems interesting - the fact is that I'm a total moron when it comes to statistics.

[sdematt]

I played this configuration (6 +3, but whatever) last year, but I was just tweaking Mirri's list. I haven't tried it recently, but I'm running 6 1-CMc main, 3 Hymn in the board.

-MAtt

[sdematt]

Any other news/ updates? /Bored and sitting in the library.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Umm, RtR comes out tomorrow?

[sdematt]

Don't you technically mean today, depending on the timezone? :P

Who has their set of Decays yet?

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

I missed the decay preorder when they were cheap...sadface, so I will have to get mine the old fashioned way, beating up little kids.

[lavafrogg]

From Drew Levin on SCG:

"I don't think this is better than Noble Hierarch in aggressive decks. I do think this is better than Birds of Paradise once you're playing ten or more fetchlands. There are enough good reasons to play ten-plus fetchlands that you should end up playing Shaman over Birds regardless. Perhaps the best thing that Shaman will end up doing to Legacy is forcing people to consider every angle of their mana base. How much value can we squeeze out of the cards we choose to put in our deck? Deathrite Shaman is not just a good card—it forces us to consider the game from more angles."

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Bone Shredder
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Fauna Shaman
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Loyal Retainers
4 Mesmeric Fiend

Instants
4 Brainstorm

Legendary Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Jarad's Orders

Lands
3 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold

I do not have much faith in this decklist but he could be onto something.

Matt- Why haven't you started playing around with the future of The Rock-Dethrite Shaman? So much amazing in just one card.

[Sughayyer]

Ahhh I am way unsure about the correct (or better) aproach in today's meta.... I know the aggro MU seems not a concern, since our board control has really improved. But I still need to hit my head on the wall a few more times to choose if I'll run 6 1cmc discards, 4/4, wether to make room (or not) to liliana, use sfm package (thus freeing a few hate cards from the side, like e. Plague) etc...

I know it's just rambling and maybe it got hard to understand, but I had to let it out....

[Hanni]

My only beef with Shaman in The Rock, is the fact that you want lands in your own graveyard for Knight of the Reliquary.

In regards to Shaman as a mana dork... the deck won't need Shaman's mana ability past the first few turns more often than not, so as long as the deck has enough fetches, it should easily satisify Shaman as a mana dork.

Once the game gets past the early turns, Shaman is easily the best mana dork you can draw into (even moreso than Hierarch), since you don't want to be drawing into mana dorks at that point anyway.

[lavafrogg]

My only beef with Shaman in The Rock, is the fact that you want lands in your own graveyard for Knight of the Reliquary.

In regards to Shaman as a mana dork... the deck won't need Shaman's mana ability past the first few turns more often than not, so as long as the deck has enough fetches, it should easily satisify Shaman as a mana dork.

Once the game gets past the early turns, Shaman is easily the best mana dork you can draw into (even moreso than Hierarch), since you don't want to be drawing into mana dorks at that point anyway.

I have not had the slightest problem with the Shaman-Knight interaction, if you are playing a knight mirror than your knight will always be bigger, if you are not playing a knight mirror than your knight will be the biggest guy on the field and continue to grow through his ability.

The only creatures bigger than knight will be from aggro loam and the Shaman is great against them anyways!

[Tormod]

Working on a junk deck.

I have a question for those experienced with goyf and kotr. The deck I'm working on is running 4 Bob, 4 goyf, 2 ooze, 3 sfm + 3 lingering souls.

Is it "wrong" to not play with kotr? I'm trying to keep the curve super low.