UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

[Koby]

What about Powder Keg as a solution against Teeg?

It's tutorable, doesn't give a damn about Teeg (unlike EE) and leaves your enchantments alone (unlike EE/Ratchet Bomb).

Might be too slow, though, as it takes two turns to charge.

Moonglove Extract
Aeolipile

[Griselpuff]

Seal of Removal would probably be better.

Playing 4 Swords to Plowshares and a couple Porphyry Nodes (great against mom) is another option

[Rock Lee]

vedalken shackles is the superior answer to teeg btw.

[bowvamp]

Shackles is terrible vs. Teeg. Sure, you've got their dude, but it's a 5 mana 2/2. You still can't combo.

Is anyone trying out Stax-like permanents in this deck? I feel like that could be a route.

[Rock Lee]

Shackles is terrible vs. Teeg. Sure, you've got their dude, but it's a 5 mana 2/2. You still can't combo.

Is anyone trying out Stax-like permanents in this deck? I feel like that could be a route.

You do realize that every single deck that runs teeg either loses to counters, or has to attack to win.

[Maëlig]

You do realize that every single deck that runs teeg either loses to counters, or has to attack to win.

Attack with knight, pro-white him with mom, win.

Teeg is certainly a big issue. I'd stick with the generic answers like PtE or o ring / detention sphere (tutorable), not sure I want super-specific cards. Aeolipile / Moonglove extract is an interesting suggestion though and the only other ones I'd seriously consider, as it is a) a tutorable answer b) not vulnerable to qasali (like o ring / sphere / keg) c) doesn't care if mom is on the board.

[Rock Lee]

Attack with knight, pro-white him with mom, win.

Teeg is certainly a big issue. I'd stick with the generic answers like PtE or o ring / detention sphere (tutorable), not sure I want super-specific cards. Aeolipile / Moonglove extract is an interesting suggestion though and the only other ones I'd seriously consider, as it is a) a tutorable answer b) not vulnerable to qasali (like o ring / sphere / keg) c) doesn't care if mom is on the board.

Can't believe you posited this situation. You steal the knight and start whomping then?

[Koby]

Can't believe you posited this situation. You steal the knight and start whomping then?

Knight is almost always >5/5.
How many Islands do you have against Wasteland?

[catmint]

Can't belive shackles is discussed as an answer to teeg in a deck that wants to finish off with helm and lock with Humility for more than 2 posts. Hang in there Koby.

[Rock Lee]

Can't belive shackles is discussed as an answer to teeg in a deck that wants to finish off with helm and lock with Humility for more than 2 posts. Hang in there Koby.

try to read what you just wrote. A less than CmC 3 answer in a deck that wins with greater than cmc answers.

Knight is almost always >5/5.
How many Islands do you have against Wasteland?

you only need 2? Because knight is a 2/2 against RiP?


I'll quit with this since using logic and tested deck logic has obviously being abandoned in this thread and I'm disturbing the norm.

[Oiolosse]

Don't stop. The rebuttals are amusing and informative. Just when I thought either side had it pinned, BAM, rebuttal.

I'll sleeve this up since I was toying with Thopters.

Unlike Thopters, we need acceleration. Ancient Tomb was a good recommendation. Chrome Mox? I almost always hate it outside of combo. Mox Diamond needs too many lands and I think we can make this list compact with low CMC protection.

[gkraigher]

Mox Diamond and Land Tax is a thing.

[Koby]

you only need 2? Because knight is a 2/2 against RiP?


I'll quit with this since using logic and tested deck logic has obviously being abandoned in this thread and I'm disturbing the norm.

I'm trying to follow along, honestly - but you're all over the place.
Answer to Teeg - Shackles, which steals a RIP'd 2/2 Knight, to "whomp" them back.

Something doesn't fit here.

[dahcmai]

Teeg?

Well, if you're playing my version, you just Path it. I don't get what's hard about that one.

[Rock Lee]

I'm trying to follow along, honestly - but you're all over the place.
Answer to Teeg - Shackles, which steals a RIP'd 2/2 Knight, to "whomp" them back.

Something doesn't fit here.

Sometimes I try to figure out how other deck designers think. I honestly feel like other deck designers on average will take a square hole, circle hole, square peg, circle peg, keep mashing the two wrong ones in the incorrect holes forever and say "SYSTEM BROKEN WTF!?"

I'm really not sure if it comes down to inability to logic-path or if it just comes down to derpyhooves syndrome.


To super simplify it for ya Koby.

Problem 1. You're dying to beaters because you have all combo pieces with Teeg in play. Shackles then takes dudes. Dudes that are stealable due to RiP or can chump. Shackles takes teeg, fogs indefinitely as they now cannot attack you until they can alpha strike you. You either, A: draw a 2nd Shackles and kill them or B: Draw your less-of answer to Teeg/dudes i.e. STP/Karakas/Detention.

Problem 2. You are being killed by little green men while you cannot assemble combo pieces. You use Shackles to steal chump blockers until you get RiP, then steal their 2/2's and again fog until you draw combo pieces.


Super simple. The concept was so simple I didn't think it needed to be explained, but apparently you wanted it pounded home. I worry for humanity sometimes.


A good hate piece will have multiple applications to avoid it being dead. Shackles does this. Hence why it is a strong choice.

[catmint]

Sorry Rock Lee for my polemic comment.

Problem I have with Shakles in this deck:
We don't want to grind them out with fair cards like shakles. We want to humiliate or Rip/field them and win with RIP/Helm.

Koby can surely judge better since I think he knows maverick well, but I don't think that a shakles will do enough. For example: If they have mother they can give protection and attack, they play a number of flyers, they can play sylvan library finding a lot of answers and drawing tons of cards, they can swarm you and maze of ith your blocker, they can bounce teeg with their own karakas if you stolen it.

Some of these plays you can answer by taking another creature with shakles next turn, but you will loose life & tempo in the process which is not a route to win.

So as I said in the opening of the post: I don't want to take the fight to this level. I just want to Humility & Helm to win and therefore want to kill or bounce Teeg.

[gkraigher]

Problem I have with Shakles in this deck:
We don't want to grind them out with fair cards like shakles. We want to humiliate or Rip/field them and win with RIP/Helm.

Exactly. Shackles does nothing that you might want a card to do. Its not an anwser to teeg, in fact, all it does is let mavrick stockpile more and more creatures until they can run you over.

It was a horrible suggestion, and we should move on.

Better hate cards for maverick would be Cursed Totem, Swords to Plowsahres and Humility. They do stuff. Someone suggest Path to Exile, I think that is the wrong choice for the deck. Giving someone a land is much better than giving them life that you don't care about.

[Freggle]

Exactly. Shackles does nothing that you might want a card to do. Its not an anwser to teeg, in fact, all it does is let mavrick stockpile more and more creatures until they can run you over.

It was a horrible suggestion, and we should move on.

Better hate cards for maverick would be Cursed Totem, Swords to Plowsahres and Humility. They do stuff. Someone suggest Path to Exile, I think that is the wrong choice for the deck. Giving someone a land is much better than giving them life that you don't care about.

It wasn't a terrible suggestion, just not a great one vs. Gaddock Teeg.

Remember (barring a few cards and their bustedness) Magic is a Paradox. There are more-or-less more right answers at certain times than others, but usually not many terrible ones.

Having played enchantress with Energy Field + Wheel of Sun and Moon for at least a quarter of a year now I can say the Wasteland issue will happen from time to time, but it is not paralyzing for the decks development.

Leaning more towards basics would be in your best interest, but not mandatory.

A card that should likely be played main is Pithing Needle. It's very good vs. Qasali's, wastes, Sneak Attacks, you name it.

Oblivion Ring is very well positioned right now because of how it interacts with Show and Tell, and should be considered main material, becuase it also handles Teeg, and other things that can regularly mess you up.

Lastly, if Teeg is really that scary Karakas an on-color land should do the trick. Yes it ups the non-basics, but it also does a lot of work against Emrakul, Thalia, Teeg, ...

This is what I have learned from the enchantress perspective.

[gkraigher]

I think you need either 1 arcane labratory or 1 rule of law to deal with ad nauseum and timespiral.

[ReinVos]

I don't think that's really necessary. You could have one in the board but game one you have counters and counterbalance (with a lot of 1s in your deck to counter rituals and high tides) giving you a good match-up against them already. You should reserve that slot for something that improves bad match-up or ups consistency.

I really, really think Supreme Verdict is perfect for this deck. It can't be countered so all the time you lost by durdling around is now recovered and you'll be in a very good position for the upcoming turns. The best thing about it is it's guaranteed to resolve. Even though this deck has tops I like Verdict over Terminus because you're not a pure control deck. You're more aggressively looking for specific cards so you'll want to fetch more, and not keep a Terminus waiting in the top three of your deck while you're holding a Helm. Yeah, pretty useless. Verdict allows for more flexibility, because the way this deck is built it's basic-heavy, so the mana cost shouldn't be a problem.

But since the general weakness of Counterbalance decks is them landing multiple threats before you establish Counterbalance lock. Terminus is great at solving this problem in Miracles, and Supreme Verdict should play that role here, as a two-of maybe. Some games you can't put the kill together quite yet but you're facing a scary board, it's nice to be able to dig for a panic button, guaranteed to work. It's the perfect card to convert CB+Top into a kill because as long as he has a board, your combo isn't winning you the game. If you sweep the board with the lock online you're going to win more than 90% of the time (especially since you can now better protect RIP/helm, or Jace).

I agree that one Oblivion Ring in the main is great because it functions as a three to go get with Tutor, and it's a solid answer to Show and Tell decks. Much better than Ensnaring Bridge. Oblivion Ring can also take down a wide range of other stuff.