you have pithing needle main, cursed totem and pithing needle in the board.Originally Posted by lochlan
From playing an Enchantress versions of this I can say with a good deal of certainty that Pithing Needle > Stifle The only thing that Stifle does that you want that Pithing Needle does not is Stifles storm, but you have Leyline of Sanctity for that.
Needle will be better at:
-Top
-Port
-Fetches
-Batterskull
Anything that keeps happening.
Stifle just surpirses, but will likely cause you to play slower which you will find you can not afford to do.
I also have to warn you about the amount of card disadvantage you are packing.
Enlightened Tutor is card disadvantage and a tempo loss. It should not be a 4 of no matter how good it feels from time to time.
Force of Will is card disadvantage.
Therefore, I have no idea what you intend to cast with Chrome Mox after all of that.
Even playing the absurd Card Advantage engine of enchantress I can tell you that deck can not even support that kind of cards disadvantage.
Different subject, what is Energy Flux fighting? Whatever it is if your running counterbalance / top & Needles there has got to be a better answer.
I know Counterbalance / top is really good, and fun to play (one of my secret favs.) but I do not think it's right for what you are really trying to do.
Right now you are a tempo deck that gives your opponent tempo. That is not good.
What about something like this?
Quality (4)
4 Brainstorm
Disruption / Tempo(11)
4 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
3 Back to Basics
2 Terminus / Wrath of God
The Locks (8)
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Porphyry Nodes
4 Energy Field
4 Rest in Peace
The Wins (3)
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Vendilion Clique
Lands(20)
10 Island
5 Plains
1 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
This is a step more into a blue tempo control deck, and a step away from quasi enchantress.
Harmonic Sliver says hello.
I'm really not liking the route that this deck is going into. I'm not criticizing anyone for tuning the deck to what works for them, but I just find so much of it being cute or cool, rather than being the most effective.
Energy Field warps this deck into something it doesn't really want to do. Being blue and pitching to FoW is great, and being 2cc is really good for curve reasons. Running less fetchlands makes your Brainstorms and Top activations alot worse. Running less fetchlands makes your manabase less stable.
Relying on Energy Field without an RIP in play prevents you from countering spells and casting setup spells like Enlightened Tutor (unless you want to lose it). Without RIP, the card is just bad... it's possible to make it work without RIP, but it cripples this decks development during the game, and in general deck construction. Running a normal amount of fetchlands also cripples your development with a Field on the board (without RIP).
Outside of direct damage (Burn and Tendrils), Ensnaring Bridge does the exact same thing as Field; preventing damage. Field doesn't stop Emrakul from making you sac permanents, and it doesn't stop the opponents creatures from killing Jace (for those who run him). Bridge does. Burn and Tendrils are both covered by Counterbalance (and Force and Pierce). An actual softlock with Field requires a combo with RIP. Bridge is a standalone card that does what it needs to do all by itself; no combo required. You can also run less copies, since you only actually benefit from having 1 in play at a time.
I also don't get why people want to structure the deck to be some late-game control deck. You lack the actual card advantage of a deck like Miracles by running temporary removable stalls (Energy Field), card disadvantage tutors, and multiple cards that are dead in multiples when you are capable of protecting them (or the opponent doesn't have removal). Why would you want to go to the late-game anyway? If you can assemble the RIP/Field lock, you could instead assemble RIP/Helm and just win. This deck isn't Thopters... you don't have to spend several turns making tokens and gaining life to stabilize, and then several more turns to actually win. You don't have to crank out a rediculous amount of mana every turn in the process, and neither card is dead on its own (Helm moreso, but still). The sheer amount of time that Thopter's takes to actually win is directly related to how much control it needs to use, and why the deck is so slow and durdly. RIP/Helm completely removes that element by winning immediately.
I can understand wanting to run Jace, for its superior dig and its ability to draw a bunch of cards, especially if you can protect it with a Bridge. It pitches to Force, and has other uses too. I don't understand why it would be preferable to Helm as a win condition though, when they both cost 4 mana (Teeg), and you could tutor up removal for Needle/Revoker instead of needing an alternate win condition.
If you want to play the late-game control style because Helm is "slow" at 4+1 mana, why not speed up your ability to get to 4+1 mana instead? Sneak Attack costs 4+1 mana too, but I don't see them running 1 Sneak Attack and only 4 targets for it. I'm not saying this deck needs to be like Sneak and Show, but turning the deck from a combo/control deck to a control deck with a combo win condition seems fail to me. Your only means of card advantage is Counterbalance, you have card disadvantage with E Tutor, and your win condition only requires 4+1 mana on the winning turn... you get no benefit from dumping 7-8 mana into an Entreat the Angels.
I'm also not sure what's wrong just RIP/Helm; why does this deck need additional/diverse win conditions? Few to no decks in the format are running Surgical or Extirpate in the main, and the only tools that actually shut down the combo are easily dealt with using your E Tutor toolbox. I mean... what's really out there in peoples maindecks? Gaddock Teeg and Phyrexian Revoker? Both of those sounds answerable with either Swords to Plowshares, Porphyry Nodes, Detention Sphere, or Humility (or preemptively good old Force of Will, Counterbalance, etc). Nothing else is actually stopping your combo once it's assembled, and removal is dealt with preemptively or through finding a replacement combo piece.
Instead of trying to softlock an opponent out of the game with Field/RIP, CB/Top, etc... you only need your tools to stall for a few turns; long enough for you to develop your manabase, cast all of your setup spells while countering specific bombs, and to then win the game at 4+1 mana. What benefit does this long and grindy control game actually provide? Miracles is a better control deck, period... and trying to mimic one or two pieces from that deck is a bad way to compensate. Why make a worse version of Miracles?
This deck has access to more than enough tools to not need to wait 10+ turns before going off. Unlike Sneak Attack, you win immediately once you pay the 4+1 mana. You can run enough redundancy to make sure an RIP sticks before you do so. And in the situations where you can't, Field is so much worse than Ensnaring Bridge, or even Humility. I bring up Humility because it is the answer you want when playing against decks with Qasali, Revoker, or Teeg (before Teeg comes into play). Sure, it's not a lock, and you may get hit for 3-4 damage a turn by some 1/1's, but that 3-4 damage a turn is not going to be able to race you before you drop a Helm and win. When Teeg is in play, that's when you tutor up a Sphere or Nodes, or cast a Swords to Plowshares. If they have Karakas, you just want until the EOT before going off. If they have Mom to protect Teeg, you're grabbing Nodes or Needle instead of Sphere (Needle if you have a Plow in hand and want immediate results). This deck has so many answers to the few problems it can run into that it seems criminally wrong to rely on a card as awful as Energy Field to try and "lock" an opponent instead.
Unfortunately, you all seem pretty sold on Energy Field, so my lengthy post is probably falling on deaf ears. At least my opinion has been stated, and I'd be more than happy to engage in further discussion about the issue if someone wants to (as long as no flames or personal attacks ensue).
Energy Field doesn't actually do anything vs. Tendrils of Agony, it causes "life loss" rather than "damage."
Very interesting post Hanni, thanks for sharing!
I'm definately going to put your food for thought on paper and work on an alternate list next to the other one.
For the moment, I can only brainfart about the deck. Time for testing is up this weekend!
I was exactly thinking the same. Porphyry Nodes doesn't make sense 1x. It's great on ly if played in multiple because it needs to be always on the field.
and now I see lists with 4of! I agree on that but I prefer StP + EF for tricks-remotion and defense
Also, you probably forgot you Tutors..
Hanni, imho you have a good point on Ensnaring Bridge + Jace, but not about EF
after 100+matches I see that I aways want to land one except against combo (I side 3 out for Leyline of S.)
this deck NEEDS his 4-5 turns to build up defense from counters and to protect its RiP
at least a Countertop or something like that.
Also Etutor + Counterbalance is just huge. Can't cut tutors for any reasons. back to 4of
Hanni what's your list?
Taking Hanni's post into consideration, I found my way to a somewhat weird mono-W Parfait list;
8 Plains
2 Karakas
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Crystal Vein
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
2 Humility
2 Porphyry Nodes
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Orim's Chant
3 Tithe
56 Cards...
mm I wouldn't go back that much. The list is already quite solid (for a tier2-3 deck, anyway)
on Stifle, again: I won 3 matches last night just because of it.
once on a Qasali Pridemage (with his horde ready to fuck me and my Energy Field as my last barrier)
once on a Pernicious Deed. It would have brought me back to turn 0 ---> sure defeat
once on Academy Rector already sacrified with Cabal Therapy. Stifle and GG
and how many times it helped me agaisnt his fetchlands (when he would have fetched for basics) when I had B2B already in the board.
Stifle, to me, is an ummovable 3 of. I just can't count all the times I said "if I had a Stifle now..." just a great card here
So, I was just getting into testing Thopters about a year ago when school slowed me down on MTG, but now I am excited about RIP/Helm.
I had a pile of alternates I was considering in Thopters and one alternate that I tested heavily toward the end was Lim-Dul's Vault. I know that you guys are not in black (I think, I've read most of the thread) but it was such an awesome tutor for me. It's usefulness outside of finding combo pieces shouldn't be underestimated. Looking for a CMC for CB? No CB, looking for FoW? Looking for Bridge? Sometimes you were just looking for land.
I agree with Freggle, 4 enlightened tutors is a bit much. Esp. if you are running 4 FoW. I had success with 3 LDV and 2 Enlightened Tutor, 4 Brainstorm and 3 Top.
I guess, the question would be, why else would we want to put ourselves into black?
This is a really good point - when Stifle is good, it falls somewhere between amazing (Stifling that T1/2 fetch, or Brainstorm->Stifle their post-fetch) and literally game-winning (like Stifling a storm trigger or stopping a Deed before you get the combo off). When it's bad, you just get rid of with Brainstorm/Force. Vs. S&T, you can Stifle their Annihilator trigger or Griselbrand ability, too, just in case you need a bit longer to win.
I was definitly thinking of black
Vault and Duress, anyone? I was thinking of Gitaxian Probe because sometime it's great to see opponent's hand, but black does the same way better...
black, imho, has his chance here
LDV is card disadvantage as well... Enlightened Tutor could find mana (Chrome Mox or Land Tax) and the appropriate CC for Counterbalance as well. I would not play a LDV unless I have 4 ETutors.
Black is awesome for Discard and sideboard hates. It might be worth splashing if you don't lean on Energy Field.
On the Sep 2011 Ban List Updates,
I like E-Field because a lot of decks just auto scoop to it. Not the case for Bridge. I agree too that it synergizes with Jace, so perhaps it has a place in the SB (or MD if you MD Jace). Also, if you are losing your E-Field, you aren't playing it correctly. You should fetch before playing it if you have no RIP, and you should almost always wait for RIP. I've never had mana issues or anything like that due to E-Field. Also, it is true that E-Field is vulnerable to Emrakul. However, S&T is such a good MU with Nodes and D-Sphere that I'm not worried. The E-Fields go out in that MU, of course.
Stifle is interesting. I think it just has a lot more power, surprise and potential, but is less consistent than Needle due to E-tutors.
I also quickly removed Warmth for Chill before reading this. Agree on that point. I think D-Sphere just has so much more utility than O-Ring (I've killed 10 Faerie/Spirit tokens with one D-Sphere). The only downside is it's increased vulnerability to REB, and that should be mitigated via playing more D-Spheres, not less. Maybe when D-Sphere catches on, it might be time for some O-Rings to deal with the D-Spheres. Just remember that one D-Sphere owns 2 O-Rings (which I have also done before).
Yes, because you won't have any more fetchlands to play after dropping an E Field on turn 2, and you definitely won't need to cast Brainstorm or E Tutor to find RIP before they play something you want to counter (or that forces a card to go into your graveyard).I like E-Field because a lot of decks just auto scoop to it. Not the case for Bridge. I agree too that it synergizes with Jace, so perhaps it has a place in the SB (or MD if you MD Jace). Also, if you are losing your E-Field, you aren't playing it correctly. You should fetch before playing it if you have no RIP, and you should almost always wait for RIP. I've never had mana issues or anything like that due to E-Field. Also, it is true that E-Field is vulnerable to Emrakul. However, S&T is such a good MU with Nodes and D-Sphere that I'm not worried. The E-Fields go out in that MU, of course.
Why would people scoop to E Field (without RIP in play), but not Bridge? Hell, even with RIP, if your hand is low from Chrome Mox/E Tutor/FoW/dumping your permanents onto the board/etc, the situation isn't going to be any different. They cannot kill you until they remove it; simple as that. Bridge is a stand-alone aggro answer, where Field is a liability until you hit RIP (that also happens to negatively effect your development until you draw one).
Hanni no one will ever play E Field on turn 2. Just Drop of Honey and just against Goblins.
Normal turn 2 of this deck is: Counterbalance or Top or cantrip EOT. You'll never cast anything serious on turn 2 (not even a RiP). it's just too soon
So then one of the pros of Field is negated, cool. One of the few pros to Field was that it was capable of coming down sooner than Bridge, but if you're not dropping Field on turn 2... then yea, makes even less sense to me.
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