Is anyone going to be playing Deathrite Shaman/Abrupt Decay in their Team America lists? They both seem to have merit...Decay in place of Maelstrom Pulse and Shaman as a mana-fixer/reach.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I don't see how the Shaman fits into Team America's gameplan at all. The deck doesn't really need the mana ramp, and it's not aggressive whatsoever. If it was a 2/1, it would be playable in alot more decks. As a 1/2, it's pretty much confined to midrange strategies.
For my 666th post, I will post in my favorite deck's topic :D
I think Abrupt Decay can help breathe some new life into the archetype.
The problem with TA always seemed to be the awkward selection of black removal -- it was either not fast enough, too narrow, or just plain inefficient for the Legacy metagame. You were forced to choose between going with the efficient but sometimes inconsistent Ghastly Demise, cheap but costly Snuff Out or Dismember, generally-reliable yet slow 2cmc removal like Go for the Throat or Diabolic Edict, or fit in the plodding Maelstrom Pulse into the main as a catch-all. Abrupt Decay solves this dilemma: it fits on-curve, kills every creature you'd likely want to kill at instant speed, and has utility against other permanent types. The added bonus of uncounterability gives it extra strength against Counterbalance, Chalice of the Void, and RUG's creatures. The only thing that could have made it better is if it had a mode to make an opponent lose life. I am not sure yet how many copies the deck wants to play, but for testing purposes I plan on just running with the full 4 copies.
Temporal Mastery is a great tech for the archetype as well, but during my testing with it I always felt like the problem with the deck was the lack of good removal selection -- thankfully TA now has access to Decay. With Temporal Mastery, the deck plays out similar to RUG in the early turns, disrupting the opponents' lines of play, setting up with cantrips, and possibly dropping a Delver or Goyf. But what happens eventually is you get a Tombstalker and maybe another creature out and set up an alpha air strike with Temporal Mastery(s), giving the deck somewhat of a combo-esque finish.
The advantage BUG always had over RUG was its ability to host a transformative sideboard, and the general usefulness of discard against combo and control decks. For testing purposes, I would start with the following in the SB: 2 Life from the Loam and 2-3 Jace the Mindsculptor. From there you can tailor the deck for the expected metagame. The main deck should be based around the lists that Dan Signorini and the Hatfields were playing around the time of Grand Prix Indianapolis.
TA will face the same problem as RUG for a period of time if Rest in Peace becomes popular, but TA can still either counter the card or pre-emptively discard it via Thoughtseize. Worst case, it can also rebuild its yard after an end-of-turn Abrupt Decay. If tempo still has a place in the post-RtR metagame (and I think it will), TA may be poised to make a comeback as the 'bigger' version of Canadian Thresh.
I agree, Shaman doesn't really do a whole lot that the deck wants. Abrupt Decay on the other hand will be a pretty sweet addition to the removal suite. I'm going to be replacing Snuff Out and Ghastly Demise in my list. I want to keep some number of Pulse in the list because have a catch all for tokens, Jace, Batterskull etc is pretty nice.
Edit: I don't actually like siding into Jace that much, I haven't had much success with it. Have people tried a sideboard Venser, Shaper Savant? It is sweet tech against Show and Tell!
I was talking about this on the RUG thread, but then realized it would be better appreciated here.
I play RUG, but I've been wanting to build a BUG deck for awhile now, especially after completing my set of Undergrounds (WOOT!).
This is a list I saw on SCG that I'm curious enough to give a shot at. It's rough, to be sure, but looks decent enough on paper.
BUG Thresh (Per Benjamin Brueseke's SCG article):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
2 Thought Scour
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
3 Baleful Strix
4 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Massacre
Pretty sure I'd change his SB around a bit, but otherwise it looks like a solid place to start. If I actually do sleeve it up and give it a run, I'll let you know how it goes.
Why not run Deathmark over some number of Submerge?
Nice post #666 bro! I agree with this, I have been trying the Jace in the sideboard today and I found it to be extremely ridiculous against control decks, especially Stoneforge focused decks. I definitely think that 1 mana removal spells are still needed, as the fact that a lot of turn 1 plays in this format are game-changing. (Mom, Lacky). I still like Ghastly Demise at 1 or 2 to stop these things, or maybe even Dismember?Originally Posted by wcm8
The advantage that RUG has is that it gets to run a lot more soft-counters due to their unremovable threat (Goose). We cannot rely on that, maybe Temporal Mastery is pushing it too far and trying too hard? Maybe we should make the deck more consistent by adding Spell Pierces / Snares? Or more hand disruption? I'm not sure on this part at all. I guess our 1 cmc discard spell serves the same purpose as a soft-counter? I always feel like our 8 threats are not enough (I consider Tombstalkers a mid/late game threat). I just feel RUG can use their mana more efficiently and function on less lands, that's the advantage that we don't have and I feel like we should strife towards that direction.
Absolutely possible. Darkblast is another card I'd love to see in the board. There are a lot of options. My game 1 against MAverick should be slightly better with this list though.
I've done some testing yesterday and i feel like the list need 1-2 more mana and a singleton Sylvan Library, just because it's awesome. I played Bob ind place of Goofs though, might change that. What about replacing the 2 Thought Scours with Darkblasts in the main? They mill fast and are good removal against Maverick and Tribal right now.
Jaces and Cliques out of the board are pretty good against Miracles, Dread of Night owns DnT and Maverick.
Fair enough...just asking the question, and I got a good answer. Thanks! My initial thought was that it was another 1-drop for the deck, maybe not a full set getting squeezed in but 2 copies to provide reach a-la-Grim Lavamancer style (avoiding combat.)
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
My thoughts on the Team America list from the article are:
- Running the same manabase as RUG but a more expensive curve:" Abrupt Decay vs. Lightning Bolt" is not a good idea I think.
Decay is super-powerful, but it has still the problem of not costing 1 or 0 which is the nuts for tempo decks. Costing 2 is just very bad against Thalia, so I think you have to also run cheaper removal.
So my approach would be to adapt the deck slightly to RUG. You do not have reach (bolt) but with decay/black removal more power to clear the way for the ground creatures. Therefore I would up the land count (as common for Team America) and play something like 3 Ghastly Demise and 3 Abrupt Decay Maindeck
My first draft
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Ghastly Demise
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
Currently playing: Elves
Hello all, I'm new and learning the Legacy format.
What is the current sideboard composition supposed to look like in a varied format? I'm interested in both card choice and strategy. It seems like a subject that should come back every few months, but I haven't seen too much new information about it here.
I never thought I'd be able to afford a deck this expensive.
It really depends on your meta. My Sideboard generally has 4-6 slots of graveyard hate, some number of good cards against Maverick (Deathmark, Virtue's Ruin, Dread of Night for example), some cards for Show and Tell decks (Diabolic Edict, Venser, Shaper Savant etc) and some good cards against Control and Combo (Spell Pierce, Sylvan Library, Jace Beleren etc etc).
Other good options are things like Engineered Plague/Explosives if tribal is more of a thing in your meta, Pernicious Deed is an okay one also. People like to side board into JTMS but I don't think that is particularly good in this deck, it isn't particularly good against aggro and against control you will mostly just be a worse Jace deck instead of focusing on being the aggro deck in the matchup.
Sorry about the double post but I wanted to ask how people have found Abrupt Decay in testing? I've been really liking the versatility of the spell, even if it can be a bit slow sometimes
Decay has been absolutely amazing for me in testing. Being a little slow is not the problem I was having. But playing multiple green spells in the deck is taxing to our mana base a little more than I liked it. Fetching for lands has never been so awkward latey.
Hey all. I've just got back into Magic after a lapse of 10+ years. I'm still getting up to speed with things and would be grateful for advice.
Has anyone been playing this recently? I'd be very interested in any updated lists which include Abrupt Decay. Please comment on the composition of my Main Deck & Sideboard and particularly, on how I might use the Sideboard (I've posted my general sideboarding plan below but perhaps I am getting it wrong -- I win my share of Game 1s but never seem to do as well in Games 2 & 3).
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Deathmark
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Darkblast
vs Miracle Control:
-2 Ghastly Demise
-1 Force of Will
-1 Daze
-1 Spell Pierce
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Sylvan Library
+2 Pernicious Deed
vs Sneak & Show:
-2 Ghastly Demise
-3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Diabolic Edict
+1 Surgical Extraction
vs Maverick
The Maverick decks seem to develop their mana base really quickly and my Dazes are pretty useless more often than not. I've cut 2 in the list below, maybe all 3 to fit a single Extraction?
-1 Spell Pierce
-2 Force of Will
-2 Daze
+1 Darkblast
+2 Deathmark
+2 Pernicious Deed
vs Goblins
I tend to do very badly against Goblins and I'm really unsure of how I should side against the deck. Stifles seem useful against some of the things Goblins throw up so I'm keeping those and have shaved a couple of counters for what I think will help. Would it be better to use Surgical Extraction in place of Edict? Or perhaps cut more counters for both Edict & Extraction?
-3 Spell Pierce
-1 Force of Will
-1 Daze
+1 Darkblast
+2 Pernicious Deed
+2 Diabolic Edict / Surgical Extraction
vs Dredge / Reanimator
Against Reanimator, I figure I'm better off extracting enablers like Exhume, Reanimate etc. instead of using Diabolic Edict to kill their creatures. Against Dredge, I would extract the dredgers. Is this correct?
-2 Ghastly Demise
-3 Abrupt Decay
+3 Surgical Extraction
+2 Grafdigger's Cage
vs Canadian Threshold
Another match-up I'm unsure about. Everything in the main deck seems relevant - maybe cut 2 FOW for 2 Flusterstorms?
vs Combo
-3 Abrupt Decay
-2 Ghastly Demise
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Sylvan Library
+2 Surgical Extraction
Please let me know if I'm thinking along the right lines for each match-up and if I've made reasonable choices for both my Main deck and Sideboard.
Thank you
Welcome back, you have chosen a fantastic deck! I think that the basics are pretty unnecessary, I would trade them for a Wasteland, a Bayou and an Underground Sea. Also, I think that playing less than 4 Ponders is a mistake, it adds so much consistency to the deck. I would consider cutting the Ghastly Demises (for Ponder and a Snuff Out/Abrupt Decay) just because they don't work very well with Tombstalker. Also, 3 Stifles seems odd to me because it's a card you want in your opening hand because it is most likely to be relevant on the first couple of turns.
Welcome back! I think you are coming back exactly when the BUG colors may come back too (thank you Abrupt Decay)
Quick comments on your list, broadly accepted:
- don't play basic lands, the deck doesn't support it well, it will mess with your colors too often.
- play 4 ponders, together with brainstorm, they really make the deck work consistently
Now suggestions, more a personal point of view based on my experience with the deck:
- you probably need 4 removals that can be played T1, to deal with Mother of Runes, Goblin Lackey, Thalia, Delver, and other 1 drops.
- play 4 Wasteland. You're playing a Tempo Deck, and Wasteland helps a lot in this strategy.
I have cut the Stifles from the deck a long time ago, to adopt a more tap-out strategy. I personally really like it. Obviously it's also a metagame call, if your meta is infested with RUG and Control, Stifle is good.
Now, Abrupt Decay is awsome. 2 manas is a lot for a Tempo deck, but the card seems so broken that you need some copies in the main, and possibly the rest in the sideboard. I'm actually in the process of testing, but I don't have enough experience with it yet to say how many we need in the main.
Some comments on your sideboarding:
- don't side out FoW in the Miracle MU, it's the only card who can counter Terminus. Spell pierce seems too good against control to get out too. It counters Sensei Top, Counterbalance, Entreat the Angels, Jace.
- surgical extraction isn't really needed against Show& Tell, because even if they play Intuition MD, they will side it out g2 and 3. Of course if you have too many things to side out, you can put it in to fill the blanks.
- Maverick & Gob MU: extraction effects aren't good against decks with a lot of redundancy, don't play it here. Spell Pierce is probably the first card to get out against Maverick. They are tough MUs.
- Reanimator: put in all the gravehate (cage + extraction) and the counters (flusterstorm) you have. Use your extractions on their creatures when they attempt to reanimate, that's when it's the more painful for them.
- Dredge: extract the Bridges if you can. They play 12 Dredgers, so by extracting 4 of them you will slow them down but they can still kill you quite easily. Extracting the Bridges is better imho, but sometimes you just can't when they play their Cabal Therapies efficiently. The Cage is the best hate you have in this MUs. I would side out your discard in this MU.
- Canadian Threshold: another tough MU, but Decay helps. Stifle is key. I tend to side out FoW in this MU against good players, because it's very risky to play it (and lose 2 cards), with all the Dazes and Spell Pierce they have.
- Combo (Storm I suppose) : you need counterspells, discard, and grave hate (for Past in Flames).
Hope it helps.
Last edited by dionykos; 10-15-2012 at 08:17 AM.
I'm a fairly new player and I play this deck. For what it's worth, I like your list. I don't think it's so much about having the perfect list so much as knowing your strategy and playing to it with good technical play. But that's just me. Here's what I play, for a comparison:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Ghastly Demise
1 Sylvan Library
1 Darkblast
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Deathmark
2 Spell Pierce
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Life from the Loam
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Darkblast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
My most recent change was adding the 4 stifle over 3 spell pierce and a 2nd darkblast. While they were excellent, I find that stifles can be used creatively in the mid-game to set up unusual situations that give you marginal advantage. For example, if a player plays around them correctly in the early game, I save them for fetches later to ruin the utility on brainstorm. They're also good against other random things such as jace bounce, miracle triggers, ringleaders, maverick's entire deck, etc. It also helps that basically everyone else also cut them for spell pierce.
I use abrupt decay in the sideboard as kind of a more flexible krosan grip, it just solves things that I don't want to deal with. I usually find that I want to do more in a turn than play only a removal, so I like my removal to cost less than 2. It's also not really worth it to expose a green source unnecessarily, but the forest is probably also not worth the limitations it gives you which forces you to use a dual. I've been considering snuff out over ghastly demise, but it's hard to use snuff out defensively. Main deck darkblast has been excellent, I would highly recommend trying it.
I don't think you really need flusterstorm. The card is excellent, but I think we have a pretty good match against those decks anyway.
As for sideboarding, I find that I basically never touch the creature, draw, or colored mana sources. Instead, I think the best approach is to change your disruption package for whatever fits the best at the time or depending on how the player plays. I put wasteland into the disruption section.
As far as I can tell, Goblins and Maverick are the hardest matches for this deck. I'm not sure how to approach them either.
All my opinion, of course.
Thanks a lot, guys. Really appreciate the input.
I added the basics because I kept getting Wasted all the time. And while being Wasted with basics in play was not as crippling at it was prior to their addition, I also felt that my gameplay had been stifled somewhat - there were occasions when I simply did not have the right balance of coloured mana to cast spells.
I'll take your advice though, cut the basics and revert to Duals exclusively (4 Seas, 2 Trops 1 Bayou), 8 Fetches & 4 Wastelands - 19 total. To cope against decks that play Wasteland, I'll add a Life of the Loam or two to the sideboard.
Before I added the basics, I was also running a combination of Hymns & IoK. Have any of you experimented with Hymns? They seem really powerful and I might try them again. Although I suppose pointed discard is a lot more reliable than Hymns which are a little hit and miss.
Thanks for sharing your list, Maximus. I like it too. Zand brought up the point about Ghastly Demise not working very well with Tombstalker. I see what he means. You're running three Demise, what do you think? In most of my games, I have managed to play Ghastly Demise before Tombstalker hit the table. Now I've seen Tombstalker described as a good "mid to late game" threat. How do you actually play it? If I draw it really early, I tend to shuffle it away. I guess that would extend the utility of cards like Ghastly Demise but I am not certain if this is always the correct play - there have been times when my Goyfs & Delvers were nowhere in sight and it was the early Tombstalker which helped me win the the game.
I'll up my Stifles to 4 as Zand suggested and as you have done. I've found them useful in the mid-game too. I remember cutting the fourth Ponder to fit in one of the basics - heh - back to 4 Ponders then.
Maximus & Dionykos - thanks for all the advice on sideboarding. That really helps.
My new list:
3 Tombstalker
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Snuff Out
1 Darkblast
4 Ponder
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Deathmark
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
BTW, what do you all make of Ryan Phraner's version of TA? He came in 3rd at the SCG Legacy Open, Providence.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...0&iddeck=67670
A lot more lands - including basics, more creatures, 2 Jace, more discard, less counters.
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