Obviously Abrupt Decay hasn't been anything special for you as of yet, considering that you're only running it as the fifth removal spell as a 1-of. Statistically, you're drawing it once every two games or so, depending. Bump it to 3-4 first, then see if you're seeing it too much/. That's how you test the value of a card in the deck (unless you already know 2 of is already a good place to start for your deck or something like that).
Also, you're only running 2 manipulation cards (1 Top and 1 Library). How do ever keep up with decks playing Brainstorm and Ponder? With the full 8 (4 Confidant, 4 Sylvan/Top split), you can actually outdraw some of your opponents and just bury them in effective removal and creatures. Here, I feel like your deck runs out of gas too often, but I could be 100% wrong since I haven't played your list. If I were you, I'd cut:
-1 Teeg
-1 Qasali
+2 Abrupt Decay
And you could cut 1 Mox Diamond for the Sylvan Library or Top. Get yourself a bit more uncounterable removal coupled with 16.67% more draw power!
-Matt
The original reasoning was because I was using 24 lands maindeck, plenty to run the deck without Mox. Along with that, I was originally playing maindeck Deeds...which kills part of my acceleration. Not a big point, but a point nonetheless.Originally Posted by lavafrogg
The biggest reason now is simply because I can't find room. I have dropped to only 23 lands (with it pushing me to 61 cards) and Loam is now just a toolbox option for Entomb rather than a central focus. I'm not sure I would want to cut any of my toolbox for a simple mana accleration card. As it stands (meaning current list) I am not as reliant on my graveyard because Entomb enables a faster utilization (EOT Entomb, my turn dredge, bingo, got Loam and the mana open to use it.) If they hose my graveyard after Entomb hits, that's ok. I've traded a resource for a resource...GSZ still digs out threats and my control suite still has a good saturation so I can reliably draw into it. With Entomb I have a more reliable way to grab Loam...without as much risk. Make sense?
And i have my singleton Shaman for my GSZ package...traded for it easy enough.
Regarding Engineered Explosives...I think the closest card, in function, is Maelstrom Pulse. Potential to hit more than one permanent but usually only dings one. If you want an all-out wiper, Deed is your choice. If you want specific destruction, Vindicate/Pulse is typically better than Explosives (IMHO.) I agree that Glissa is a waste of space, even with EE. If you want to play EE and have recursion, play Landstill with Academy Ruins...or utilize Eternal Witness with your GSZ package. But if you have Witness, you can recur your Pulse/Vindicate/Deed anyways...
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Teeg is very relevant in fairly common matchups (Miracles, most combo). It's rarely a waste of the MD slot.
However, you make an excellent point about Qasali Pridemage. I'm trying to sort out the uses of Pridemage where Decay falls short. BSkull is obvious, but control decks can play around that easily. Moat is scary as fuck. Can anyone see other points where Pridemage > Decay?
I love Mox too much to cut any. Yes I'd LOVE to have more filtering, but cutting things is just so hard :(
Referring to the art on Stasis:
Hi guys. I've been dusting off some decks I've used to run, and one of them happens to be the rock. I used the old school version with Pernicious Deed, Sakura-Tribe Elder and Spiritmonger and it was a house.
Nowdays, I've decided to bring back this deck to life, and make some obvious adaptations to the new metagame. Due to Show and Tell based combo being the most popular nowdays, I've decided to skip Storm based combo hate. It's just not worth it, since Rock colors are off blue, and you have to spend a lot of sideboard pieces to make things happen.
This is my latest version, and I'd like to hear some advice from people who's experienced with this archtype.
Lands [23]
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Maze of Ith
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
Creatures [17]
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Scavenging Ooze
Others [20]
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mox Diamond
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vindicate
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard [15]
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Engineered Plague
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Path to Exile
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Life from the Loam
Some explanations: Rock is not Maverick. Period. They're both Midrange decks, and they both have their merits, but Green Sun's Zenith is better suited in the latter archtype, they have better utility creatures and better ramp provided by Noble Hierarchs and they can play Thalia with almost no drawbacks. Rock is trying to either land a major threat in the early turns, like Dark Confidant or Stoneforge Mystic, or disrupt your opponent via board control and discard effects and then land a threat. Rock can't control the game for long, since discard isn't as effective as permission, so we also need efficient beaters. That's the right spot for Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary, the second being a really good utility one. Moreover, black gives us nice options for sideboard against the most common decks in the metagame.
Engeineered Plague is mainly to fight Goblins and Elves, being the first a bigger problem. Discard isn't very effective against them, and you need to rely on Stoneforge Mystic too much to win the first game. Plague makes the postboard games much in our favor, as they can't interact with Enchantments (not 100% true for Elves). Engineered Explosives is great against control and against Merfolks. It deals with Entreat the Angels with a small investment and it's pretty useful in 80% of the metagame. Oblivion Ring and Karakas are for the Show and Tell matchup, which is one of this deck's weak spot. And they have other utility, like removing Planeswalkers or dangerous critters from Reanimator. Life from the Loam is great against control, and even better if you man up and switch that Savannah for a Horizon Canopy (I couldn't do it yet). It's also great against RUG if you manage to Wasteland them. Path to Exile is great against aggro in general, but it's the best removal avaliable against RUG. It's a Swords to Plowshares with no drawback at all. And it's pretty useful against Merfolk and some dangerous Goblins. Surgical Extraction and Bojuka Bog are there for you not to scoop against Dredge and Reanimator. And they have other marginal utilities.
Thanks for the reading.
EDIT: Don't forget you can tap some colorless lands to cast Engineered Explosives, like Wasteland or double color lands in order to play arround Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void. The colorless adds up to X, but doesn't trigger Sunburst. Example: you can tap double Bayou and Wasteland to make cast Engineered Explosives for 1BG and X = 2. You can also tap Scrubland and Bayou for black, and cast Explosives for BB with X = 1. This is marginally useful, but it doesn't hurt to remind.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
You say that Path to Exile is great against Delver, but I'd much rather side in Abrupt Decay 3-4 rather than Swords 5-6. Getting around counters is huge in that match when not facing Mongoose, not to mention the related matchups.
I'm also curious about Thalia from the side against combo/SnT instead of the random x2 O-Ring, x1 Loam, and another x1 (Karakas?) but I'll leave that up to more experienced Rockers. I know from my fanatical testing of the Nic/SnT matchup that just a few cute SnT counters will not cut it.
Are you referring to Thalia as the cute countermeasures, or Vandalize's SB slots?
Thalia is great against them. Keeps them from cantripping into everything they need. Makes SnT almost manageable speed. Keeps them from going off with Petals. And Thalia hits almost every other combo deck in the format (except Dredge. and she even hits them sometimes).
O-Ring is good tech against them but isn't necessarily worth the SB slots.
Referring to the art on Stasis:
I'm referring to the O-rings, especially at a low x2 count. Nice in theory but just rarely enough. The SCG that Rock took down a month or two ago used Thalia with great success against SnT in the finals.
She might not work well with the mainboard, but the combo matchups you bring her in for are the ones you take out the likes of Vindicate and such.
How much influence do I have towards that thought process? I've been VERY happy with testing and would recommend it to anyone who's using a bird as a Zenith target (singleton). Even as a single I've found the reach to get that extra distance to sure up the Miracles match (over 50/50). It's also better against burn and Goblins. (There should be video's up soon).
I don't think it's worth $10 USD but I think it's something you should trade to get your singleton. It'll go down "soon enough". the set's new and new things cost more - good* things stay more.
*Good is best described as things that are on route to become staples.
-----
Vandalize - Besides the lack of basic plains paining me (granted, that's an old experience with Moons that makes me almost require it for my lists), Why the second Karakas in the board? You already have the Loam to have a second (third, fourth, and fifth) just in case they legend rule you.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
Mirri- Your list underperformed for you, that pale girl with the swords has been some good as of late.
There is so much going on in this thread right now I love it! I am just going to touch on cards/topics to the best of my ability:
Thalia: If you have a strong combo presence in your meta than Thalia is most likely the best card to bring in against SnT or Storm based combo, especially when paired with wastelands to keep them low on options. She is not that strong or even worth it if you do not think you will be playing omniscience and tendrils at least twice in a given tourney. Sideboard hymn to tourachs can get you there while still being relevant in the control matchup for keeping hands empty.
Teeg: Should be maindeck in any list with GSZ, the match ups where he is good are very relevant right now and if you can protect him with equipment/karakas he will win you the game against miracles. He also keeps jace off the board and everyone hates jace. Which brings us to:
Green Sun's Zenith: I will say this again and I will feel super repetitive while saying it: Green Sun's Zenith is the best card green has to offer. I believe everyone should be running 4 but not running any is for sure a wrong choice. It is greens version of brainstorm but it can fund the exact card you need in any scenario. Anyone can come in to the thread and say that zenith is a maverick card but maverick is a tier 1 deck using tier 1 cards. If people want to play in the past and not use the cards wizards gives us then I will be very happy to be playing a more consistent and powerful version of the same deck, let me play mirror matches all day long.
Abrupt Decay: It has found a home in my sideboard for right now as I don't live near SDEmatt and I do not need to play 20 pieces of removal against RUG and Maverick(Matt loves his removal) the ability to come in out of the board and kill a delver/counterbalance is huge but it still does not warrant main board slots in a tight list.
EE: This is my sweeper of choice, I get to pick a converted mana cost that I am losing at and wipe it off of the board. Deed hurts me too much and is too slow/clunky in todays metagame.
Hymn to Tourach: Matt posted that this was in his board the other day and I have tried it out...awesome. The card is super strong in some match ups and garbage in others. It is the perfect sideboard card! It helps against the many versions of SnT over other very specific(but maybe useless) hate cards. If you have a thalia and he drops an omniscience than good job... but if he drops a griselbrand/emrakul it is most likely a different story.
Stoneforge/goyf: If combo/goblins is a big deal in your meta, you should be playing 4 goyfs to give you the best shot at winning...if not that Stoneforge is the better plan. Goyf just walls merfolk until your other cards can come online. Stoneforge is better against miracles and control in general as all of your creatures are now threats. Kind of a meta thing.
Thats all I really have right now. Other than everyone should be playing Deathrite Shaman...that card is fucking dumb.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Do you like it better than Ulvenwald Tracker? That's the card I compare Deathrite Shaman to in terms of how "good" it is. It has more versatility, a tougher body, and an easier casting cost in exchange for less impact on the board; moreover, the abilities of both creatures are dependent on the gamestate in other ways.
Now, that comparison isn't to say Deathrite Shaman sucks--in fact, I thought Ulvenwald Tracker would see some play in various decks as a one-of tutor target when Maverick and similar decks were running rampant (before Miracles essentially relegated creatures and "fighting" for board presence to second-tier status). However, there are a lot of great cards in Legacy, and it's difficult to make the cut. I have previously said that Deathrite Shaman is unlikely to see regular Legacy play, and if it did, it certainly wouldn't be a 4-of (i.e. that would only see play as a singleton GSZ copy in Elves). I may certainly be wrong, and those have extolled the virtues of Deathrite Shaman as a 4-of in The Rock may eventually be proven correctly.
Since I know you thought the Tracker was good enough as a singleton copy, how would you compare Shaman to him? Better? Worse? Situational? Make room for both in your toolbox?
Why do you think that Shaman is a no-go as a 4-of? I'm asking because I was thinking the same, until I saw it in action. Surprisingly, Shaman is quite good in multiples, especially in a format like legacy that is full of cantrips and fetchlands on both sides of board. Shaman isn't a Green Sun's fetch material, it's a GSZ enabler with added bonus for mid and late game.
Comparing Shaman to Tracker is wrong way of thinking since their roles are completely different, not to mention that one of these cards is unplayable (and it's not the Shaman).
People are seriously overlooking Birds of Paradise ability on Shaman, which enables much easier crossing in other colors (splashing blue etc), without the problem of being stuck with a 0/1 flyer when things don't work out perfectly. Casting Hymn to Tourach or playing a turn 2 Knight of the Reliquary/Lingering Souls/Vindicate has never been easier - with the potential to follow up with a Jace the turn after.
There are other unmentioned bonuses - like stopping turn 1 lackey, winning g1 vs Reanimator on it's own on the play, etc... The card deserves serious consideration and testing in multiple shells.
QFT
QFT as well, Shaman is very good in multiples, it makes match ups against GY based decks like Reanimator and dredge from completely unwinnable to a slight chance of winning. I had this one game against Dredge where I had 2 deathrites in play simulatenously removing Ichorid and the likes from the GY till he scoops due to not getting enough food for a [card]Dread Return[/card]. That means a lot when we auto loose game one with such match ups, but winning game one could also mean a sure win post SB where we board it all the hate we have against such decks.
Shaman becomes an Early game BoP but a late game shock to an opponent, this increases the clock making us win match ups faster. Compare this to BoP this has a lot more utility. As much as he is GY dependant, then we can say the same for Snapcaster which Blue decks have 4 MD, as well as Goyfs and KotR which are a 4-of in all their respectives decks. Although this is poor comparison with what those cards can do, my point being is that shaman creates a whole lot on impact as much as those cards can do.
Yeah... You should learn to take a joke (or do we need to use smiley's to prove it's a joke). Stick to the subject(s) at hand please.
-Edit, since I just finished reading your post- Since entomb's unbanning, I'm X-0-1 vs Reanimator. I'm terrible so where is the matchup as terrible as you say?
-----
Pippin & Lordofthepit - I wasn't the biggest fan of this card in the beginning. I'm still not the biggest (Lavafrogg
When you're playing something as a 4-of, you're intending to have it asap and as much as possible. In this case, the life and burn are both "later" game abilities. During the early game, you're spending your time doing things with your mana (staying in the game). That means that you're usually using it in the early game for it's mana ability, not the other two.
Unfortunately, that ability is dependent on another variable. If you, or your opponent, didn't have to bin a land on their first couple of turns, you're playing a "vanilla" 1/2 (Would you play stoneforge with no equipment?). Needless to say, you wouldn't play a creature like that very often. While those chances may be low, the idea of competitive non-blue decks is to increase consistency in the power of plays instead of filtering draws (there are no real blue draw spells anymore).
Now that we're past that, playing 0-3 of them may be fine. I don't recommend any more than 2 but that's just me (no evidence, just a feeling). In my case, I had a singleton Birds of Paradise. In my case, it's worth it to change it.
If I'm playing it on the first turn, there's a better chance that I've Zenith'd for it (guaranteeing a land in the yard, Mox) than hardcast it (simple numbers, 2 Zenith; 1 Bird). That mean's there's a much higher probability that I'll be able to USE Shaman as ramp in those early turns than with lists just running 4.
Now to the meat of why I changed. My bird was meant to fix colors and provide a tutorable out to Moon effects with just a single green source (Get bird, destroy moon). In that sense, the Shaman can do the same thing, except that I can hardcast with Green or Black. No basic? Shaman doubles the percentages of drawing the right one.
Shaman also provides late-game options (burn and life recovery). This means that the late-game topdeck'd Bird is now able to do other things with out equipment. There are enough Instant and Sorcery spells in the deck to support Shaman in the later game.
Due to the intentions of my bird and the extra abilities of the Shaman, I've moved over to shaman and recommend it to anyone running X birds. I just don't think it's good to run 4 of them.
Summary - Shaman's good but not a 4 of for consistency reasons. It's fine as a tutor target, just know why you have that target.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
@damionblackgear
I must say that your reasoning is a bit strange. Especially the quote: "Shaman's good but not a 4 of for consistency reasons". This is something that contradicts itself. You want 4 Shaman to help with consistency, so that you can cast all your heavy colored spells in the early game. If you have shaman as a GSZ target that is indeed an interesting choice, since you could go for either Scavenging Ooze if you need to fight graveyard or for Qasali Pridemage if you need to fight through Blood Moon.
Shaman will be active vast majority of time, since the format is full of fetchlands (and one can run more to accomodate Shaman), not to mention that your Wastelands suddenly gain extra value.
I agree with this. You really want the uncounterability, and not just for Delver, but for Counterbalance.You say that Path to Exile is great against Delver, but I'd much rather side in Abrupt Decay 3-4 rather than Swords 5-6. Getting around counters is huge in that match when not facing Mongoose, not to mention the related matchups.
Thalia is great against the combo that needs to build some sort of Storm count and has limited mana availability. Sneak and Show without Omniscience doesn't get hurt as much by Thalia, but it seems like the new OmniTell does, having to cast multiple spells (even if they're free) to build up a count to kill you. Thalia is the better card in this situation, but it also depends on what else you're running. Thalia doesn't do much work against Miracles, since the reason they're playing Terminus over Verdict is the fact you're wiping for W. Making it 1W is still fine.She might not work well with the mainboard, but the combo matchups you bring her in for are the ones you take out the likes of Vindicate and such.
---
I'll try Shaman out replacing one of the Scavenging Oozes, just to get it in the deck to try it out. I'll keep you posted.
-Matt
I've been trying to limit my posts to one per day max but I'll make a small exception to help explain. I'm gonna shotgun this explanation because I'm short on time.
Very few of the "Rock" lists currently run 4 Birds/Hierarch. Why is that? The answer's simple, "They don't want them in the late game." Even with all the fixing and everything else that's available via Birds/Hierarch they are not very good in the mid-late game. because of this, there are altered numbers for each, even though, 4 is the number that's required to reach maximum consistency. They also allow for a 100% chance of being able to produce an extra mana their next turn (if they live).
When I use the Bird in my list, it's intended to be fixing only. The problem is, I only run 1 bird. That's not nearly enough to be consistent in a 60 card deck. That's where I mentioned the cost and typical 1st turn bird plays (mox required, guaranteed land in yard). As I'll always* have a land in the yard for my first turn bird, Shaman would also always provide a mana the next turn. So, the inital Ramp is close enough to the same that I can afford the <1% loss in efficiency.
Now take if you do run 4 Shaman, you now have to adjust your manabase to allow for as many fetches as possible. This takes away from many things but, most importantly**, you cut into the Knight's land base. You start to lose utility from knight which returns you to a bad version of New Horizons when you cut too many. Compared to Knight, Shaman isn't as useful and as such, shouldn't be included in ways that prevent you from running the rest of your deck optimally. That's why I say not a 4 of.
So why run it at all? You made good points, if you're looking for graveyard, go to Ooze. If you need to stop a Blood Moon, Qasali Pridemage.
Here's the main problem I see. These are limited examples. Ooze will always be better at dealing with Graveyards with green mana. What if you're limited to basics and you already have Ooze out? Suddenly, you're able to deal with a spell and a generic at once. Or, another example, you get wasted off green or are playing the "No Forest" game suddenly you're still able to limit the graveyard without green mana. That's something Ooze can't do. Granted there aren't very many matches that that will be relevant but, it's something to think about.
Now let's look at the Moon effect. There's one big thing you overlooked, Magus of the Moon. Pridemage can race him but, they're expecting him. You could say that they're designed to have him in play. That makes it so that they'll most likely have ways of dealing with a pridemage over the course of the game.
Now that's just one example. You won't always have Pridemage. Nor with you always have basic forest to Zenith for the answer but, you'll likely have a land in the yard at that point (Nobody really plays dragon stompy anymore so we can omit T1 moon). So, any basic Forest or Swamp will allow you to play the Shaman and thus give you access to Pulse/Decay. Either of which will allow you to deal with the problematic Moon effect long enough to preemptively get out from under the next (hopefully).
To finish this up, your two examples are great for the graveyard and moon but, what if you need that last little bit of reach? Sometimes, we are stuck behind things that limit our abilities to actually close out the game (Moat, bridge, Mom, etc). Shaman's abilities aren't just limited to eating cards from graveyards and producing mana. They also do other things. 2 life may not be much but, it's enough when added up.
I've got to run now but if you want I'll try to clear up anything else tomorrow before class. as for the asterisk...
*Usually.
**Important to me
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
@ matt
hopefully the shaman would perform well for you as it did in mine
@ damionblackgear
It seems that it would be hard to dissuade you but it would be so much better to playtest with it, that's how I got into to liking the shaman. Shaman performed so well that she can do so many things other than strictly being a BoP, I wouldn't even compare it to such since if you would look at the big picture shaman can do a whole lot more than being just that. Although running 3-4 is still debatable (still in the testing phase) I would always like to have one on the first few turns. If she sticks, she can do a whole lot of shenanigans from ruining Snapcaster tricks to shrinking opposing KotR's to vanilla 2/2's to just casting a 3CC card on turn 2. Just sticking one on the first few turns makes her a must answer to any opponent because if unanswered and I drop more threats like KotR and Bob it would hurt a lot more as the game progresses. No land in either GY 1st turn, why not attack, she maybe vanilla without the GY but she is still a 1/2 creature that can attack (compared to 0/1 birds). As for adding in more Fetchlands, I don't think adding its necessary to add in more fetchlands, 6-8 is quite enough there is not that many decks not running fetchlands nowadays that she can probably be fed by your opponent and you only probably need to feed 2 or 3 lands to use her mana ability anyways since I would always use the shock ability once I get all my threats into play and mana producing is no longer a necessity.
If that doesn't convince you then nothing would but that's ok
But trust me test her as maybe a 3-4 of, then tell me if she doesn't work for you.
I was testing the shaman x2 a bit last night and love her for the acceleration and mana fixing, but she most definitely needs a high count of fetches if you want her to be a consistent fixer on turn 2. I was testing with 7 and still had a few games where neither myself nor the opponent (RUG Delver) had burned a fetch turn 2. Quite a few times there was a RUG fetch on the field that was burned EOT that rustled my jimmies...
One thing that's nice in playing her is that she opens up use of the Sensei's top in the early game. Turn 3 you can still activate the top in your upkeep and be able to cast a 3cc spell (with extra consistency thanks to the mana fixing) which proved to be a huge tempo boon that I didn't anticipate otherwise.
In addition, even without Abrupt Decay, you can use her acceleration to overload RUG's counter suite by means of cheap removal (Swords/Discard) followed by hard kill spells (Liliana) during the early turns.
Still needs more testing, as there were times when I was facing down a threshold Goose and Goyf with a 1/2, or I was woefully unprepared for turn 2 Show and Tell, but she brings some obscure advantages within the Rock framework past her written abilities.
I think the list was based on something damion or matt posted a few pages back as a sketched "here's what to run with shaman x2" but with some additional modfications.
I've begun my derpy little fishbowl testing of Shaman. So far, I like it. Doesn't make my world go round, but the flexibility is fantastic. I see uses for it in every MU.
I don't feel that I need it in play in every game. I'm not constantly pining for it when it's not on the board.
I'm happy playing one for now. I could go up to two so that, when it's really being excellent in a given situation and the opponent finally answers it, I can still have one on the board again. I doubt I'll ever play more than 2 in Legacy
Referring to the art on Stasis:
@ Lava,
Shamans aren't $10. Just picked one up for $4. Enjoy that tidbit :P
I didn't get to play a ton of Magic last night due to infinite midterms, but god I love Ulvenwald Tracker. It's definitely a card Maverick needs to be playing if Baleful Strix is a card, 100% for sure.
-Matt
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