OK noted :) I made the count 3 because I don't want to draw multiple ElementalsOriginally Posted by karaxu
I will up the count on my next cockatrice testing
The third vertex does seem important. CB still has trouble keeping a 3 on top, and it excels in a few other match ups as well. If it is good enough to be a Main deck card in burn, then I think it warrants a 3rd slot.
Really hard to make niv magus work. It opens up the deck to become more into the creature route which our UR delver decks can dodge using a lot of burn to the dome. I think I'm giving up the idea :) Who knows though? lol
I saw a deck where Nivmagus Elemental was brought in and it did exactly what you said, more dudes, less damage to the dome. It's meta specific and I think the card is more suited to RUG Threashold than Izzet Delver.
Cheers
That Rug Delver list also has some Izzet Charms. Has anyone tested Izzet Charms in the Main Deck? :)
I haven't tried it myself, but I believe the consensus was that they would fit into the flex slots that meta-specific cards like Sulfuric Vortex, Fire // Ice or additional Price of Progress currently take up. But that it was a Spell Pierce or Forked Bolt for and extra mana.
Always happy to be proven wrong of course ;)
Tournament Report:
Finished top 4 at our latest major. "When Worlds Collide!"
(34 Players)
Here's the decklist:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Thunderous Wrath
2 Price of Progress
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Daze
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
3 Misty Rainforest
Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Price of Progress
1 Fireblast
1 Thunderous Wrath
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Sulfuric Vortex
Round 1 Esper Stoneblade (Win)
Game 1: Turn 1 Thoughtseize from him as he takes away my Price of Progress, I draw Ponder and go turn 1 Goblin Guide. He simple passes on his 2nd turn and He STPs my one Guide. I Spell Pierce his STP. He seems to be stuck on 2 lands at this point and I drop the 2nd Goblin Guide on him. He casts another STP which I Spell Pierce but he Forces back and my 2nd Goblin Guide dies. On his 3rd turn he hard plays a Lingering Souls which I Spell Pierce again and when he flashes back I bolt one of his spirits that blocks my lonely Goblin Guide. Eventually, he plays a Stoneforge Mystic which I Chain Lightning and Guide gets him to burn range. He kills the Guide but I get to burn him out after that.
Sideboard: +2 Vortex, +2 Smash to Smithereens, +1 Fireblast, +1 Thunderous Wrath, +1 Price of Progress, -3 Force of Will, -2 Daze, -2 Spell Pierce
Strategy: To burn him out! Side out my counters lol I'm hoping for a big Price of Progress as he is 3 colors! Rawr!
Game 2: I don't remember much except that he Forces my Price of Progress but gets hit with another Price via Snapcaster Mage for a Solid 8 damage when he was at 14 Life. 2 Bolts get the job done the turn he hardplays a Batterskull. I remember an early Guide and an early Lavamancer beating on which he kills.
Round 2 The Gate (Win)
Game 1: I already know his deck as I have seen him play before on other tournaments. Lost the Die Roll again lol Turn 1 Dark Ritual into an early Hymn. I was really nervous because I kept a one lander with 2 Brainstorms and a Delver of Secrets hand. He hymns a Lightning Bolt and a Brainstorm :). Turn 1 Delver for me. We eventually reach a point where he resolves a Phyrexian Obliterator and me with no board but lands. It goes the distance and I can't race it.
Sideboard: +2 Vortex, +1 Fireblast, +1 Thunderous Wrath, -2 Force of Will, -2 Price of Progress
Strategy: Become a burn deck and sling to the face!
Game 2: Turn 1 Goblin Guide, Turn 2 Thunderous Wrath and Grim Lavamancer Turn 4 Sulfuric Vortex. I expected his Gatekeeper of Malakir so I cast a Snapcaster Mage turn 3 on his turn, I flash back a Bolt to his face and sacrifice the Goblin Guide. I hit his Gatekeeper with Grim Lavamancer and he lays down an Engineered Plague on Turn 4. Both my Snapcaster and Grim Lavamancer die.. Should have sacrificed my Snapcaster instead lol But it is all over as I have 2 more Lightning Bolts and an expected top deck of Chain Lightning via Ponder.
Game 3: Turn 1 Grim Lavamancer, Turn 2 Brainstorm Grim Lavamancer, Turn 3 Lightning Bolt his Vampire Knighthawk, Turn 4 Sulfuric Vortex. He plays 2 Phyrexian Obliterators but they're too late. Fireblast to the dome ftw!
Round 3 Ad Nauseum (Draw)
Game 1: I draw the nuts! I draw 3 Counters out of my total 8 Counters in the whole deck. 1 Daze, 1 Spell Pierce and 1 Force of Will. He makes a turn 1 Gitaxian Probe and then plays a cabal therapy during the 2nd turn which I Spell Pierce. Turn 1 Delver for me and it goes the distance along with a Grim Lavamancer. I also proceed to draw an extra Force of Will so I had a total of 4 Counterspell in the entire match. On his last turn to go off, I let him cast his Infernal Tutor because he wasn't Hellbent and he didn't crack the LED. I guess he was baiting me to Counter it to increase the Storm Count but I just let it resolve. I counter a Cabal Ritual after that and he doesn't have enough mana left.
Sideboard: -2 Price of Progress, -1 Grim Lavamancer, -1 Chain Lightning, +1 Force of Will, +1 Flusterstorm, + 1 Fireblast, +1 Thunderous Wrath
Strategy: Play a threat go Counter everything that makes him go off. Pray to God for less disruption Spells.
Game 2: Mull to 4, I almost won as he rips my hand apart on the 1st few turns but I brainstorm away my Flusterstorm so it doesn't get discarded. My 4 was 2 Lands and a Ponder and a Brainstorm. I draw Delver at some point and I was presurring him but he Casts Duress on my Flusterstorm and goes off. I eat a Tendrils for a lot because of a Past in Flames Combo with many many rituals.
Game 3: We both keep our opening 7 but time was called after my turn 1 Delver. Couldn't kill him on the last 5 turns and he didn't have the combo either.
Round 4 URW Miracles (Lose)
Game 1: I get him down to 3 and he seems to draw all of his Swords to Plowshares and Snapcasters. I think I ate like 5 Swords to Plowshares effects. I ran out of gas and rest assured 3 Angels Beat me down to a pulp. He also lays a Jace, the Mind Sculptor to seal the deal and was able to fateseal me thrice!
Sideboard: +2 Vortex, +2 Red Elemental Blast, +1 Fireblast, +1 Thunderous Wrath, +1 Price of Progress, -3 Force of Will, -4 Goblin Guide
Strategy: Become a burn Deck! Burn face before he can control me.
Game 2: I get some early beats with Goblin Guide and I play a Lavamancer which gets Stp'd. Guide gets Stp'd, Delver gets Stp'd. My whole team became farmers. He lays down a turn 3 Counterbalance which I Red Elemental Blast. Later on he sticks a Counterbalance and a Top and I fail to draw any Sulfuric Vortex or any Thunderous Wraths. He was down to 2 Life..
Round 5 Veteran Explorer Jund (Win)
Game 1: I have fought this deck before and lost so I figured I won't even try to control his creatures and just burn face! He keeps a very slow hand and does nothing until turn 4. He was also stuck on 2 lands for like 75% of the match and he was relying on his Sensei's Divining Top to draw him lands. Nothing much to say here. He gets stuck on land and I dig in to a turn 3 Threat, which goes all the way. I forgot if it was a Goblin Guide or a Delver. I remember a Miracled Thunderous Wrath and in the end Price of Progress finishes him off.
Sideboard: +2 Vortex, +1 Fireblast, +1 Thunderous Wrath, +1 Price of Progress, -3 Force of Will, -2 Daze
Strategy: Burn face!!! Price of Progress for tri-colored decks!
Game 2: He kept another slow hand but featured Carpet of Flowers. I tried my best to play around it but i was forced to lay down a Volcanic Island to play my Delver of Secrets. He Abrupt Decays it.. Ouch! But my Goblin Guide was beating on his life total. He plays a turn 4 Scavenging Ooze I think and eats my Delver to gain 1 Life and Pump the Scavenging Ooze. I think at this point he below 10 Life. He then plays a Huntmaster of the Fells and Gains another 2 Life. I draw into 2 Snapcaster Mages and Snapcaster Brainstorm on my turn to avoid his Huntmaster from flipping. He swings with his Scavenging Ooze and all that I can do is Race him with Burn. I think I miracled another Thunderous Wrath and Snapcaster Mage for Bolt and a hardcasted Chain Lightning gets the job done as I was facing lethal next turn.
Round 6 Mud Stax (Win)
Game 1: I drop a turn 1 Goblin Guide and say to myself this will be a quick match because I have so many bolt effects in my hand lol He lays down an Ancient Tomb and casts Chalice for One. I'm like omg I only have 1 casting cost spells in my hand. After fetching numerous times, for a lot of reshuffles my deck fails me and lets me draw into more 1 cost spells. I get him down to 10 until he casts a Tangle Wire and a huge Sundering Titan finishes me off. He also Wastelands one of my Duals and after Sundering Titan hits play I'm left with my one land and can't cast my 2 cost spells. Wow at this point I'm so demoralized as this match is a Win and In top 4 Match.
Sideboard: +1 Force of Will, +2 Smash to Smithereens, +1 Thunderous Wrath, +1 Price of Progress, +1 Fireblast, +2 Sulfuric Vortex, - 4 Chain Lightning, -1 Grim Lavamancer, -2 Lightning Bolt
Strategy: Counter Key spells and Burn him out ASAP, Make myself not vulnerable to Chalice for One. I proceed to treat him as a combo deck so Force of Will goes in.
Game 2: I keep a hand with 2 Price of Progress, Snapcaster Mage, Smash to Smithereens, some lands and some Brainstorms. I play land and go. He drops another Attempt with Chalice for one with City of Traitors. I respond with Brainstorm to fix my hand. Next turn I just sat Go and he plays a CloudPost. End of his turn I proceed to Smash to Smithereens his Chalice for One and on my Turn I just lay a Land Drop and hard play Sulfuric Vortex. He reads the card and on his turn he Plays a Glimmerpost and casts a Trinisphere.
I couldn't counter it as I didn't have the counter magic at the time so it resolved. The clock starts to tick with Vortex and I Price of Progress him for 4 Damage. He doesn't have much action in his hand and simply passes. I cast another Price of Progress to his face and soon I draw into a Lethal Fireblast but he dies from Sulfuric Vortex anyway playing his Metalworker. Yey! Chance!
Game 3: Last Match of the day! Here we go! Mud isn't unstoppable I say to myself. I kept an opening with no Counters, no Smash to Smithereens but a Sulfuric Vortex and 2 Delvers and a Grim Lavamancer and a Lightning Bolt. He mulls to 6 and plays another Turn 1 Chalice of the Void. Uh oh... I think it's over! I simply draw on my 1st turn and draw into a Snapcaster Mage. Wow something I can cast I say to myself. He then plays a Wasteland floating mana from his City of Traitors and proceed to play his Metalworker. This is almost GG right here.
I proceed to top deck again and draw into a Force of Will. Play land and go is all I do. He casts another Wasteland as his 2nd land and Taps Metalworker floating 6 Mana and I was able to see a Sundering Titan and two other high cost artifacts. I of course hit that with Force of Will pitching one of my Delvers. On my 3rd turn I proceed to draw.... Drum Roll Please! Thunderous Wrath!!!!! I miracle trigger in response fetch a Volcanic Island which I'm forced to fetch for Red because I only have Misty Rainforest and Miracle Thunderous Wrath kill his Metalworker.
I'm like omg! I'm still in this game. On his turn he simply draws and frowns as he doesn't have anymore lands or resources to cast his Big Spells. I play another Land and cast my Game Winning Card Sulfuric Vortex! He top decks again and passes and doesn't Wasteland my land because he doesn't have mana. I then lay another land and simply Say Go. He draws again and frowns and passes. I end of turn AMBUSH VIPER!!!! On my turn I swing with Ambush Viper and say go. Ambush Viper gets 2 swings before he could drop his Glimmerpost that doesn't gain him life.
At this point his life total is really going down and I knew it's over. He plays a Metal Worker when he is on 4 Life and he is forced to block Snapcaster Viper. Fireblast gets me there :) On that last critical turn I also drew my Smash to Smithereens. I wanted to shout at that point but I had to control myself. I only made a Fist Pump in the air and said "Yes" after the win and I knew my Standing as 5th seed would get me into Top 4 for the Draft Playoffs. I ended up number 2 in the standings after the last round. :)
After which, I get into Top 4 of the Legacy Portion and face off against the Top 4 from the Standard Portion the day before. We played draft and I get horrible cards and no bombs. I also made a few mistakes on some picks and there my opponent beats me to a pulp in 2 games. Still props to getting into Top 4 :) The prize is not bad as I was able to draft a Hallowed Fountain and a Lotleth Troll aside from 2,000.00 Pesos in cash. Thanks for Reading my report!
Last edited by blindspotxxx; 10-17-2012 at 01:03 PM.
Grats, nice work.
How's this working out for you?
Thunderous Wrath won me 3 games today :) It's very strong! It goes through Chalice! :p
Awesome. I've not been impressed with Fire // Ice, I might swap that out for [cards]Thunderous Wrath[cards]. Cheers :)
Tournament Report is finished :)
Good job blindspot! When I heard UR delver got top4 I thought you used Nivmagus
Anyway congratulations!
To force or not to force? That is the question.
Ya I don't know, I decided to test it as a one of and first time I did I draw it in my opening hand and it sits there while literally any other card (burn or counter) would've won (get guy to 2 life, and he eventually proceeds to casts show and tell). Miracle cards like these are a bit of a gamble, you sacrifice some consistency, frankly I'd rather run a Fireblast as a one of to ensure I can punch through in situations like these, or else you are in effect taking a mulligan to 6.
As a 1-of, the statistical probability of having it your opening hand is extremely low. The fact that it happened to you on your first time trying it is simply an anomaly. While it may happen from time to time, the chances that you find a Brainstorm in a deck with Ponder's as additional cantrips (and maybe even using SCM to flashback Ponder) is actually pretty good, considering the average length of games for U/R Delver.Ya I don't know, I decided to test it as a one of and first time I did I draw it in my opening hand and it sits there while literally any other card (burn or counter) would've won (get guy to 2 life, and he eventually proceeds to casts show and tell). Miracle cards like these are a bit of a gamble, you sacrifice some consistency, frankly I'd rather run a Fireblast as a one of to ensure I can punch through in situations like these, or else you are in effect taking a mulligan to 6.
Even if you run more Wrath's, if you have one in your opener that you cannot get rid of, topdecking another one in the midgame essentially negates the one in hand, since it's doing 5 damage for R. A normal burn spell there would do 3 damage, so you've only actually done .5 damage less (per spell, 1 dmg in total), had the one in hand been another 3 damage burn spell. If discussing Fire/Ice instead, the damage is actually worse for a larger cost investment of 1R (I realize that it has more functions than this, I'm simply using this as an example for comparing the damage differences).
Any hand where you don't start with a Wrath (or you have a Wrath in hand, but also have a Brainstorm), every topdecked Wrath is doing 5 damage, which is nearly 2 burn spells worth per Wrath. Not only does this speed up your clock immensely, it's also extremely efficient since it only costs a single R.
I actually run 3 Wrath's in my Blue Sligh deck, and I'm only running 4 Brainstorm's with no Ponder's and no SCM's. The card has been nothing short of phenomenal in there. Although it is another statistical anomaly, I've had a couple games now where I topdecked two Wrath's in a row to win the game out of nowhere.
I'd recommend playtesting with them a bunch before dismissing them from a 'bad beat.' You may still end up disliking them, but at least you will have a better understanding of how they function. I know I was skeptical when I first tried them, but I wouldn't play a deck like this without them now. They have won me way too many games now.
Oh, and another nice little bonus... Wrath's can be cast through a Counterbalance, if Miracles isn't floating a Terminus on top.
Last edited by Hanni; 10-18-2012 at 03:23 AM.
I meant .5 damage less per spell, or 1 damage less in total (vs having two 1cc 3 dmg burn spells). Sorry for the confusion.
I edited my previous post to fix the errors (and the typos).
Okay I hope the math is correct here (if its not please correct), the chance of drawing a 1 of in a deck is the following I hope...
1 of card in opening hand of 7 cards -13%
59/60 x 58/59 x 57/58 x 56/57 x 55/56 x 54/55 x 53/54 x 52/53 = 0.87
1 - 0.87 = 13%
It's hardly a statistical anomaly to draw a singleton in your opening hand of 7 cards, indeed it can be expected roughly 13% of the time. Now we add in the brainstorm effect and the chances of not being able to miracle it at some point get small. But we also must additionally calculate placing another card back on library that may have little to no utility. If your brainstorm is countered you are once again stuck with a dead card in hand. As we run 4 Snapcaster Mages we must also calculate the inherent inability to flashback spells with high CMC.
I'm not saying its a bad card and my intention was not to come off as just relaying a bad beat story, I do however sincerely believe there are better choices.
I meant it was a statistical anomaly to draw a singleton in your first time trying it, not that it's an anomaly to draw a singleton in your opening hand.
I also didn't mean that me drawing two in a row was a statistical anomaly, but rather that I've had several games in a row where that's happened.
I'll be honest, it's a gamble. That's why I only run at most 2 copies of Thunderous Wrath. I don't ever want to draw them in the opening and if I did I'm praying for a brainstorm on top lol But 2 copies vs 58 other cards in your deck seem to be a good gamble if you ask me. I have a singleton Fireblast but I'm afraid it will be even more stuck in my hand if I draw into 2 pcs.
Nivmagus is basically complete garbage. Now I could see some lists running Flusterstorms in the main (assuming this works the way I think it does) that might make him good but he basically voids the redundancy of burn. The card is completely worthless in multiples and situationally decent but never just broken. Last night I took my list up to my local tournament testing out both Figure of Destiny and Nivmagus as 2x ofs and everytime I was wishing it was Figure. My list is a little weird since it is kind of a tempo sligh hybrid thing; here is the list I have been running with quite a bit of success for the last 2-3 months:
4x Goblin Guide
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Vexing Devil
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
3x Rift Bolt
3x Fire/Ice (LOVE THIS CARD)
2x Fireblast
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Arid Mesa
6x Mountain
1x Volcanic Island
1x Steam Vents (don't own 2 Volcs and don't spend much time/money on Magic anymore)
Sideboard
3x Vexing Shusher
3x Pithing Needle
3x Cursed Scroll
2x Faerie Macabre
2x Shattering Spree
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Surgical Extraction
I have played a variety of everything and I tell you, this list just CRUSHES RUG Delver and Stoneblade something fierce. Last night I beat Affinity (very easy), lost to AdN w/ sub par draws, and beat UB Tez Stax w/ Chill in the board. I love how effective this deck is but the only thing I am unsure of are the Vexing Devils. Last night I replaced the Devils with 2x Figure and 2x Nivmagus and Figure seems better but Devil definitely makes things faster. He is spectacular in certain spots and most of the time I am not upset to draw it. What I want to do is throw 2x Figure and 2x Scroll in the Devil's spot and free up some SB space for some Flusterstorms or more Surgicals. Now I don't want to debate Cursed Scroll since everyone constantly tells me how slow it is but it wins me so many games it ridiculous, what I am curious about though is Vexing Devil. How many people have tested it out? As to the Nivmagus argument, I boarded it out every game and drew it a few times and never wanted it, and as an added bonus it makes Grim Lavamancer worse and thats the best card in the deck. Thoughts?
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
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