He could be relegated to the SB because Legacy is an aggro-filled format. Mage is great against combo, but it can only improve your chances so much if they're already 80%. Goblins, however, is not only harder to beat than any deck Mage is amazing against but more popular at major tournaments than all of them together. That's not to say Mage is good against everything except Goblins - what about any other aggro deck, or the mirror match?
I might consider swapping out Pithing Needle for Meddling Mage in a metagame with very little Goblins and a considerable amount of combo, but I would not do so in a major tournament because I can expect Goblins to be considerably more of a concern than whatever Mage would help against.
I think most people disagree with me on this issue, however.
Originally Posted by Dr. nitewolf "Professor" 9, Ph.D.
Where does it say this? Are you sure you didn't just mis-read something? I certainly would not drop my magi from the maindeck.
Proud member of team theVault.
Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards.
It makes them soggy and hard to light.
Reading the more recent pages of this thread, I keep seeing stuff about mages SB, that are brought in for mongeese against combo and certain control. This seems to be repeated many a time, so it seems reasonable to think that people had generally decided (the way archetype developments go) to put the magi in the SB.
If Mage is in the board, you should take out StP, Enforcer, and Pithing Needle long before Mongoose against most combo.
Putting mages in the board is a choice you can make. For me I always started the mages and would board them out in matches where they weren't overly useful and I had something better in my board. I would think that mage would be more useful now than before with less goblins and more of everything else. Against Life From the Loam the only real answer you have is Meddling Mage naming life, counterspells don't work very well and their clock is faster.
I am having immense trouble dealing with troll and out of control mongrels (especially rancored, jitte'd and sword of fire and ice'd one's) Even when I do counter troll, they just trop slum or iwamori the beating fist and its out of range of my bur (i run red) Any suggestions on how to deal with big fatties (other tha stick and fire/ice
That's one of the weaknesses this deck has. Zoo decks with bigger creatures are really hard matchups, because basically all they play is threats, and you can't hope to counter them all. Short of going white for StP, you're looking at trying to figure out which creatures are real threats, and keeping them off the board. You don't need to take care of Troll Ascetic as long as they leave him the size he is, because you can block him all day with your Bears. My plan against these types of Zoo decks has always been to lock up the ground and beat for the win in the air, but then again, I've always played more finishers than most builds.
I would recommend allowing more of the smaller threats to resolve, trying to tangle up the ground, and then winning in the air. Also consider White if these types of decks are big in your area, as StP is a good answer to a lot of these guys.
Play Winter Orb or Geddon to punish them for using expensive, 3+mana threats. Daze is good with those, too (I've Dazed my own Geddon and paid, just to save the land).
Their mana cost might be the killer argument against using them but has anyone ever tried to use Silver Knight as a sideboard card? They potentially own any kind of red aggro and it can be nice to have some more threats postboard that don't get hit by graveyard hate.
Of the cards you've mentioned, I'd say Jitte and SoFI are the biggest threats by far (unless you have a Pithing Needle). Rancor is probably the next best because it means your creatures won't beat his anymore, and it won't die. If they play a Troll, leave a Werebear open. If they play a Slum or Iwamori, leave two creatures back - trading a Werebear or Mongoose for a 5/5 is acceptable. Mongrel isn't much of an issue because it's only going to survive combat damage with a Werebear if they discard three cards. You'll gladly stalemate on the ground while you dig for more creatures and eventually a Dragon. You may need to counter Slum if you're at very low life, suspect they have burn, and/or can't see a quick end to the stalemate. Otherwise it can be dealt with. Basically, while anything enchanted or equipped is going to be a problem, if you counter the enchantments and equipment, your creatures can take care of the rest. The big creatures are annoying, and you don't really want them on the board, but they are not the most threatening cards. If you're finding yourself without enough counters, I'd recommend letting the creatures (starting with Troll) resolve.
Well, the double white could be kinda hard to support for the mana base, since you will never have two white mana on turn two. You want to have Tundra, as well as Tropical Islands on the table to cast stuff like Mongoose and Werebear. You do not want to fetch a second Tundra on turn 2...
Sometimes you have to read between the minds.
++ T8ing all over Europe since 2005 ++
++ Team aYb - all your base (are belong to us) ++
If it's the pro:Red you want, then go with Galina's Knight. If it's the First Strike you want, then find another creature, because it's going to be tough to get WW on turn 2, or even later.
What better way to revitalize this thread than with a success story? I'll even spice it up with some controversial card discussion!
Report
I used UGw Gro to make the finals at Kadishack's Dual Land Draft on April 8th. I didn't take notes during the tournament, so I'm just going to give a basic recap with a few comments:
Round 1: Solidarity (Brian AKA Ewokslayer) 1 - 1 - 1
Game one I beat him with a Force and 2 Dazes. Game two I mulled into a poor hand that he eventually fought through. Game three we ran out of time and turns.
A classically inauspicious start.
Round 2: Rifter (Nick) 2 - 0
Humility never stuck, so I won.
Round 3: UGw Gro (Jesse AKA Mad Zur) 2 - 0
Getting paired against my brother always sucks, and we weren't in a position to draw. I won the match because I drew better than he did.
Round 4: Solidarity (David AKA Deep6er) 2 - 0
I got (much) better draws than I did in round 1, and things went like they usually do. I ended both games with superfluous counterspells in hand.
Round 5: Deadguy Ale (? - I apologize for forgetting your name) 2 - 0
Game one, he scooped to lethal damage on my turn 5. Silly black players giving Mystic Enforcer threshold.
Game two was slightly more interesting, but he didn't play anything on turn 1. I admit that I don't respect Deadguy very much, but it seems awfully hard to lose against them if they don't open with Dark Ritual.
Round 6: Solidarity (Mike AKA Herbig) ID
Quarterfinals: Train Wreck (Jack AKA InfamousBearAssasin) 2 - 0
In my limited experience against this deck and it's precursor Jack Black, I have learned to fear the matchup above all others. I won the die roll, but then I mulled down to 5. At least he went down to 6. And then I won the game. When Jack scooped, he had a Chainer's Edict in the yard to answer my lone creature, but his 6th and 7th lands were fetches, and he was at 2 life.
The second game had something to do with Pithing Needle on Deed and Meddling Mage on the Putrefy Jack Witness'ed back. He resolved a Haunting Echoes while at 9 life, but the Mage and a trio of puny 'bears did him in, anyway.
Jack didn't draw a Cabal Coffers in either game, which I think made a big difference.
Semifinals: Angel Stompy -or- The Deoxygenation of Tokyo Bay (Evn AKA LegoArmyMan) 2 - 0
This isn't a matchup I relish, exactly, but after beating Jack I figured a cool head and a little luck could pull it out. And it did. Evn's draws could have certainly been better, although he did draw 3 Parallax Waves in game 1. Thank you, Pithing Needle.
As a side note, Evn is a cool name. Vowels are for pussies.
Finals: Solidarity (Mike AKA Herbig) Split
The Tundras are all German, which is awesome, so we arranged a split in which I ended up with said Tundras and a few small perks to make up for the difference. Why play it out when there's another solution that leaves everyone happy?
This is only the beginning of this post, though. I really just want to discuss my build of Gro and why it looks like it does.
Decklist Analysis
//draw (16)
4x Brainstorm
4x Serum Visions
4x Portent
4x Predict
//counters (10)
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
3x Daze
//other answers (7)
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Pithing Needle
//guys (10)
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Werebear
2x Mystice Enforcer
//lands (17)
3x Polluted Delta
3x Windswept Heath
4x Tundra
3x Tropical Island
3x Island
1x Forest
//sideboard (15)
4x Tividar's Crusade
3x Meddling Mage
3x Nantuko Monastery
3x Naturalize
2x Blue Elemental Blast
I'll start off by discussing my color choice, which was the biggest decision I had to make in the last few days before the tournament. I considered all three splashes (red, white, and black). I even considered splashing two colors, like Summersberger did for GP: Lille, but I'm reasonably sure a fourth color isn't worth the sacrifices. Each option has advantages and disadvantages, of course. I actually pretty much dismissed red early on, in both light- and heavy-burn forms. Pyroclasm is probably the strongest anti-Goblin sideboard card, but Lightning Bolt is the worst removal spell in the mirror match, which has become a much greater concern since GP: Philly. I was leaning towards black for some time, because Ghastly Demise is insanely good, Confidant is strong, and there are some great board options for black, like Engineered Plague, Diabolic Edict, and Haunting Echoes. However, I was a little worried about playing Demise without knowing if Deadguy would be popular. The next choice, of course, was white, which has both good removal (STP) and a good flyer (Enforcer). White also offers Nantuko Monastery, which is ridiculous. UGw was my choice.
Now, I'd like to touch on each of the atypical card choices and counts, as they appear in the list. This deck is the current incarnation of the Gro decks Mad Zur, me, and several other NoVanites have been tweaking for the past year+. Thus, these conclusions are based on months of testing and development, and can be inferred to apply to each of the color splashes, at least when possible.
Portent: This card has yet to get the respect that it deserves. Zur and I have been playing it over Sleight of Hand for quite some time (since before GP: Philly), and it's almost certainly better. Portent digs deeper than any other cantrip, and is much closer to Brainstorm's power level than even Serum Visions. The ability to "lock" your opponent out with Portent is relevant, as well. The fact that Portent is a slowtrip very occasionally comes up, but not nearly as often as the extra manipulation wins games.
Equally important is the increase in draw spells from 15 to 16. Winning with Gro is a matter of chaining cantrips until you have overwhelming card quality advantage. I've found that most of the games Gro loses are games in which chaining cantrips is impossible for some reason, and squeezing one more cantrip into the list is an obvious way to improve the deck in this regard.
(lack of) Mental Note: Mental Note is abyssmally bad at chaining into more cantrips, or digging for threats, or finding answers. It can occasionally get you threshold a turn or two earlier, but getting seven cards into the graveyard happens plenty quick enough without sacrificing your midgame advantage. I think the card is awful in the deck.
Predict: I guess some people still aren't sold on Predict, but it's been consistently solid, even when there are only 8 enablers for it. Having 12 setup spells only makes the card better.
Counterspell: I've tried going down to two Counterspells, but the deck always feels light on hard counters when I do. I think three is the way to go.
Pithing Needle: The only strike against maindecking Pithing Needle is that it is poor in the mirror match. However, access to this card significantly improves almost every other matchup, with the exception of Solidarity, which is heavily favorable regardless. Since you have plenty of time in the mirror match to Brainstorm Needles away or simply avoid drawing them in the first place, I don't think there is any compelling reason not to run them.
The manabase: Nothing too techy going on here. I like the fetchland configuration because it maximizes Pithing Needle's "usefulness" in the mirror (where the card is at its worst), since you can name Flooded Strand.
The Plains didn't make the cut because going below 16 blue sources is poor and so is going above 17 lands in total. The basic forest is important so you can deploy beats through multiple Wastelands, and the basic Islands are there in case you want to play a basic land on turn one.
Tividar's Crusade: Worship is more versatile, but Tividar's Crusade is cheaper and less conditional. Note, however, that if I were to try to fit a basic Plains, it would be almost solely because of this card. Sideboarding the Plains is always an option.
Meddling Mage: My Mages are still in the board because they are terrible in a lot of matchups. They are also still in the board because Mage is an amazing tool to have access to.
Naturalize: It seems like a lot of people are cutting down to 2 Disenchant effects, or even axing them altogether, but I'm sticking with three. There are several tough matchups, like Rifter, Angel Stompy, and Landstill, that play out dramatically differently depending on how many Disenchant effects you have access to.
Nantuko Monastery: For me, this card was a significant factor in my deciding to splash white this weekend. Monastery is a huge threat in the mirror, and against any white or blue control deck. It simply beats any opposing threat short of an Enforcer or Dragon, and is uncounterable to boot. It can get Needled in the mirror match, but that requires the opponent to keep an otherwise dead card in the deck after sideboarding.
Most decks that Monastery is good against don't run Wasteland, so I generally get to side out the Forest to fit one in. I'd never take out blue sources for the other two, but it helps the deck's threat density, nonetheless.
Blue Elemental Blast: This slot could have been Tormod's Crypt, but I'm comfortable with the list's mirror match without it. BEB shores up the Goblin match a little bit more, and is also strong against other random aggro decks, Rifter, and Burn.
(lack of) Armageddon: Armageddon is strongest against control decks, with Rifter being the most prominent in the format right now. However, it is fairly situational against a deck so capable of answering Gro's threats. I think outdrawing white control is a better strategy than going for the flashy 'geddon plan. Armageddon also has poor synergy with Monastery, which is great in the same matchups, and then some.
I truly think that a Gro deck built off of this skeleton or one like it is the best deck in the format right now. Goblins is being harassed by several developing decks capable of beating it. Conversely, a lot of decks that supposedly beat Gro, like Deadguy Ale, Rifter, and Angel Stompy, actually struggle to maintain an even record against the deck. Gro isn't unbeatable, but as long as people are focusing on Goblins, Werebears will be difficult to beat.
Last edited by Obfuscate Freely; 04-11-2006 at 01:03 AM.
I don't want to turn this into a rehashing of old arguments, but...
I chain draw spells with Mental Note all of the time. Don't forget the nice synergy with Brainstorm (or Portent if you're running that). The mirror match against a Gro deck running Note puts you at a serious disadvantage.
Predict on the other hand I've actually been warming up to. One of the problems I've found in some matchups (I run UGr) is that I run out of answers. With Zoo/WW/Goblins I'm usually ok because the burn and card selection gives me enough until a drop a beater. But with a beatdown deck (as has been discussed) the threats keep coming at a size that my critters can't take care of. Trading one for one (or worse with Force) only works so long. We have card selection but no real card advantage. I can't simply hold out until I drop a bomb like Humility or Wrath. 12 deck stacking spells (Brainstorm, Magma Jet, Serum Visions) make it a useful mid-lategame play. Early game it helps get threshold and cantrips so its not totally useless (although yes it is expensive for a cantrip, but you don't really want the Dragon or Enforcer in you're opening hand do you?). What do other people think about running it as a 2-of?
This is 100% true. I actually just switched from Sleight of Hand to Portent in my Lock Fish deck after playing with it in my Ice Age Turbo Xerox deck for BYOB (It's Bring Your Own Block, which I must say is a fantastic format). It's basically like a delayed Impulse, with the benefit of being able to shuffle your deck if you don't see what you need. It's great in decks with reactive instant answers because it's drawback doesn't matter, so I guess that it would be great in this deck too.
I notice you're also running the 3 Daze 3 CS setup instead of the usual 4/2 setup. How has this been working out for you? Have you found the sorcery-speed cantrips in the early game restrict your ability to cast Counterspell, or was it ever a problem?
Nantuko Monestaries look pretty techy in the SB, but no offense, I would much rather keep a solid manabase and add some other sort of answer than bastardize the manabase, even in the mirror. I would imagine that it would lead to more mulligans, and perhaps even game losses due to the need to get those colored mana sources in play and start cantripping.
Everything else looks solid and the match report was great, congrats.
KIDS WITH GUNS!
I think it's time everybody stops repeating this ridiculous assertion. Mental Note is awful in the mirror match because it's a poor manipulation spell. The Gro mirror is a battle of attrition that is won be whomever draws more creatures and removal spells. Rushing to threshold might let you get a few free hits in, but life totals are only marginally relevant until they're under 10. The midgame sacrifice is not worth it.
What's wrong with running four?Predict on the other hand I've actually been warming up to. What do other people think about running it as a 2-of?
Good to see some love for Portent.
When it is so early in the game that the cantrips are interfering with Counterspell mana, you have to decide whether your opponent has a likely play that you can only answer with Counterspell. If he does, you then have to decide if you can afford to pass the turn without playing any cantrips. This has not been a problem in my experience, since situations in which you need Counterspell's protection but can't afford to pass the turn are very rare.I notice you're also running the 3 Daze 3 CS setup instead of the usual 4/2 setup. How has this been working out for you? Have you found the sorcery-speed cantrips in the early game restrict your ability to cast Counterspell, or was it ever a problem?
Incidentally, I've never liked running 4 Daze because its a situational card that a lot of people play around. In my mind, the next contender for the third Counterspell's slot is Mystic Enforcer #3.
I like to swap out a Forest for a Monastery, but the other two come in in place of spells. This change hardly bastardizes the manabase. You have to realize that Monastery plays like another threshold creature, not a land. It's a free, uncounterable threshold creature that eats the other threshold creatures for lunch.Nantuko Monestaries look pretty techy in the SB, but no offense, I would much rather keep a solid manabase and add some other sort of answer than bastardize the manabase, even in the mirror. I would imagine that it would lead to more mulligans, and perhaps even game losses due to the need to get those colored mana sources in play and start cantripping.
Thanks!Everything else looks solid and the match report was great, congrats.
I would join a campain pro Portent anytime (as i did several times before). As you know (likely) i am playing it over Visions for about half a year now. Nice to see you and MZ still using and advocating it. :)
Last edited by kimberley; 04-12-2006 at 02:58 AM.
Team Weathermen
we shake our heads as your tables turn - they'll always turn - and you will never burn
that's the real promise: you'll never burn
you get the lies - we get the fire
I actually thought that you took out a forest AND two blue sources. If that is the case, it seems like a good idea, though threshold would become even more of a priority.
Also, have you thought about running Engineered Explosives in the sideboard or the maindeck? I have found that to be one of the best removal spells that a UWG threshold deck can take advantage of, being great against a lot of different decks and threats.
Also, about the Meddling Mage being in the SB, I agree completely. It's best matchup is against Combo, and to some extent, Control decks. However, Control decks will usually have multiple types of removal to kill it. Also, it isn't half as useful first game as it is second and third, unless you know your opponent's deck thoroughly.
KIDS WITH GUNS!
This list is incredibly saucy. In particular, I love the # of cantrips, as well as the land configuration. I would still run -1 Island, +1 Plains, but I think I could be swayed from that argument. i just feel its important to be able to cast Enforcer from Basics alone.//draw (16)
4x Brainstorm
4x Serum Visions
4x Portent
4x Predict
//counters (10)
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
3x Daze
//other answers (7)
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Pithing Needle
//guys (10)
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Werebear
2x Mystice Enforcer
//lands (17)
3x Polluted Delta
3x Windswept Heath
4x Tundra
3x Tropical Island
3x Island
1x Forest
//sideboard (15)
4x Tividar's Crusade
3x Meddling Mage
3x Nantuko Monastery
3x Naturalize
2x Blue Elemental Blast
I still Like Mentl Note, but there are pros and cons to it, just like Portent. In a meta filled with the Mirror, I think I would cut Note, simply because you ned card selection, not speed. In a Goblin meta or a Solidarity one, I think Note is better than Predict.
I run my Mages MD, but I've actually been less than impressed with them lately. I also have MD Engineered Explosives (I've been testing them) but those could easily come out as well. The Explosives used to be cantrips, and I can see them becoming them again. I agree that they're better in the board.
Monestary is nuts. I'm ashamed I never thought of it. How difficult has it been for you to keep GW up to activate it?
You're running Portent over Serum Visions? What does your cantrip base look like? Personally, I would never drop Serum Visions from the deck, I think it's the strongest cantrip after Brainstorm, and Serum Visions helps to chain cantrips better.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
