Oh yea I remembered a few more points about SFM.
Merfolk now has 8 lords that grant Islandwalk, Coralhelms get flying, and Reejery can tap down Batterskull. So relying on SFM/Batterskull to win the Merfolk matchup is a bit different these days. It's not like a year or two ago, when Merfolk players were unprepared for it and didn't have the proper tools to deal with it.
The other thing is, that Terminus pulls alot of weight against Merfolk. Back when SFM/Batterskull was the answer, the other option was a 3cc sorcery called Firespout. A 1cc Wrath of God changes the dynamics there dramatically. Most lists aren't even running Cavern of Souls (or only a couple of copies)... that list is already really shaky on the manabase as it is. If you either shut down Vial (whether with countermagic, DSphere, or Needle postboard), Counterbalance@2 wrecks their shit.
In regards to Goblins, Batterskull is just so much worse than Jitte, and this deck cannot utilize Jitte. Despite the plethora of answers that they have to SFM/Batterskull in the first place, if you let Krenko go for even a few turns, they are going to alpha strike all over your face like Batterskull is not even there.
The only other predominant aggro deck in the format right now is Maverick, and SFM/Batterskull is pretty awful against them. Miracle Control in general is great vs them, so it's not really an issue, but it's definitely another strike against why SFM/Batterskull just seems like such a bad idea in here.
Well, I mostly disagree with you. Especially about the Stoneforge-Mystic-part.
Here is why:
Stoneforge Mystic itself is a threat. It tells other decks to better handle him, fast. Well, they mostly do, most of the time due to the extra-removal they have in hand, like you mentioned. But this is not a bad thing at all. At least not a totally bad thing. Yes it costs us 2 Mana. But we do not lay down Stoneforge Mystic on T2. We are not Stoneblade. We don't say "Smash Stoneforge, protect, win". By no means!
Our maingoal is to gain control and drop something that helps at keeping it. You drop Counterbalance, I drop Stoneforge Mystic. Let's compare them a bit.
Counterbalance is stimply weak against many decks, Maverick for example. Other decks are totally dead to a Counterbalance with an activateable Top or simply a cc1 spell on top. The prime example of this being Canadian Threshold. But wait, how is Thresh going to beat a Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull after an Boardsweep? Well, right. They won't.
Stoneforge Mystic gives this deck the possibility to step out of the Draw-Go Controlrole after some time. And when we do that, we are the deck that warrants answers. We apply pressure. This is not completly Esperblade's strategy, nor is it Miracles. It's the Hybrid's Strategy.
As many of us have realized, Stoneforge and Counterbalance in the Mainboard is hardly doable. Stoneforge Mystic is even good against Combodecks! It does provide a clock. One of Miracles biggest weaknesses. Yes, we could lock out some Randomstormdeck, but they still managed to kill us in Turn 15 or stuff. With Stoneforge Mystic on the Board, they have to do the same thing, but better fucking fast. Postboard you have the, superior, Counterbalance and the Stoneforge Mystic, making it an deadly couple.
Stoneforge Mystic is awful against Maverick? Well, it might not be the best strategy, but Counterbalance isn't too. But it does one thing, alongsides the Mishra's Factories I play at the moment. They stop Maverick's little "hit you for 2"s. Ofc they won't deal with an Knight of the Reliquary, but that's not their job.
On the other hand, when you have played quite awhile against things like UR Delver and companions, then you will realise, that Counterbalancing them out often goes wrong. Why? Because they simply wait up for turn after turn until they can bring some little damage through your counters and the Counterbalance. When you have an Stoneforge Mystic out, they can't. Pure Miracle often stabilizes at very low life. And dies to that, sometimes. The Hybrid can get out of this problem, by simply casting an Batterskull in T15 and starting the Life-Race.
I hardly think your Goblin-MU is anywhere near fair. When you play Stoneforge Mystic it is at least an acceptable MU. Not good, but not too bad either. In the best way you just put down and Stoneforge after having wiped the board.
Counterbalance on the other hand is dead in so many MUs. Or simply to late. An Counterbalance doesn't stop an attack. You might be dead before you ever activated your Balance, or atleast near to it. Secondly, Counterbalance is only good with Sensei's Divnining Top, and I don't know...but people in my area started Force-of-Willing my Top. (Great play btw)
On a more general note: I think Stoneforge Mystic is worth the effort (risk like you put it). It should not be played the way it is in Esperblade, sometimes it should, depends on the MU. I think it makes more MUs better than it makes worth, and I think that this deck needs to get pass it's apathetic role. I agree on your points on Clique though.
That's my list for comparison.
Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Glacial Fortress
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
3 Mishra's Factory
Creatures:
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
Win:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Batterskull
Removal:
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
Counterspells:
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
Cheating things:
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
3 Counterbalance
2 Meddling Mage
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Humility
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
I came to the conclusion, that Oblivion Ring is superior to Detention Sphere as long as we do not run E-Tutor due to the reasons mentioned on the earlier pages.
Greetings
I wasn't comparing SFM to Counterbalance, because the both do totally different things, but maybe I should have. They are both 2cc and must be played at sorcery speed, so it's a fair comparison to draw in that respect.
Counterbalance is this decks Standstill. It is a less conditional 2cc enchantment card advantage engine. It's not there to lock people out. It's nice when it does, of course. It's primary function is incremental card advantage. Batterskull may provide some virtual card advantage, but that's not the same.
Why is Counterbalance bad vs Maverick? GSZ? They run a ton of 1cc, 2cc, and 3cc spells... and 4 GSZ, which tends to get cast for 3cc alot. That's making Counterbalance bad in this matchup? Sweeping with Terminus and then dropping a CounterTop lock is nice here. They might still be able to use GSZ to sneak in a Qasali to blow it up, but it doesn't change the fact that there are tons of relevant spells to counter and the card advantage gained is pretty nice.
Against combo, I definitely don't want SFM over Counterbalance. Otherwise, I'm holding UU open for Counterspell and waiting to EOT a Clique in. Turn 3 Clique swings on the same turn as Batterskull off of a turn 2 SFM (turn 4), and while it's a few turns slower, it's ETB ability is incredibly good against them. Lifelink only matters against Tendrils and ETW Storm Combo. Again, SFM does not remotely compare to Counterbalance in these matchups.
The advantage I see to SFM over Counterbalance is in the Vial Aggro matchups, where Counterbalance loses alot of value against an active Vial or Cavern. Normally, I would be all over SFM for these matchups, but SFM as a 2-of, with a single Batterskull, just doesn't do enough to justify the downsides in my other matchups.
If Merfolk doesn't have a Vial, Counterbalance is still really good after a Terminus. Keeping more guys from coming into play is what this deck wants to be doing. SFM is still better in this matchup, but they have so many ways to go unblockable these days; Batterskull can still be hit or miss.
Against Goblins, I just don't see SFM/Batterskull doing much. The plan here is to just keep trying to kill guys to survive long enough to drop an ETA ftw. Going the distance with Clique is still a possibility if you can manage to hold on to Karakas. Counterbalance is god awful here too... worse than SFM most definitely, but at least it can pitch to FoW to stop a turn 1 Vial. Postboard, I'd rather bring in Humilities/Moat's/Plague's/etc.
I'm willing to take a hit against Merfolk and Goblins by running Counterbalance instead of SFM, and then address those two matchups adequately with the postboard. Why? Because Counterbalance is stronger in all of my other matchups, and has far more synergy with Terminus against other aggro decks.
Oh, well, that was unlucky put by myself. Counterbalance is better than Stoneforge Mystic in pretty much all Combo-MUs. Still, a Stoneforge works wonders here, as said earlier.Originally Posted by Hanni
Maverick: So you keep the Counterbalances in vs Maverick? Well they aren't particulary awful preboard, but you should have way more powerful cards postboard. I can't remember to have boarded in Balances vs this Green/White-Menace...
General questions: What do you guys think of the inclusion of Mishra's Factory? It blocks Nimble Mongoose like a champ, and is pretty much a hardlock vs many decks, when used in addition to Humility. I've been happy with them by now, atleast in the UW-Version. I hardly think that UWX+Mishra is possible though.
Greetings
Yes, I do leave the Counterbalances in against Maverick. They are pretty good for me in that matchup.
EDIT: I'm glad you brought up my sideboarding plan against Maverick, because I haven't been doing it perfectly.
After some evaluation, here is my sideboarding plan for Maverick:
-4 Force of Will
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-1 Counterbalance
+1 Terminus
+2 Humility
+2 Disenchant
+2 Pithing Needle
Without FoW to pitch excesses of Clique, Jace, and Counterbalance, I can cut those down. Clique is decent vs them, but not spectacular. Jace is good, but the board has to be clear first. Counterbalance is good, but I don't need to resolve one early. Force of Will is pretty bad, since I rarely want to 2-for-1 myself against them.
Needle comes in to shut down Mother of Runes, and then there are a ton of good targets after that. Disenchant deals with Choke, but it also deals with Jittes and Library. I go up to 4 Terminus for obvious reasons, and the 2 Humilities are a bomb against them... I wish I had Factories to break the symmetry, but I do have a single Shackles, and turning their guys into vanilla 1/1's makes the matchup much easier.
---------
I was running Factories in my previous list and liked them, but having 4 colorless sources was rough sometimes.
---------
EDIT 2: What do you guys think about Moat instead of Humility?
It still lets Goblin develop their board, and it has no applicability against Show and Tell, but it does have more synergy with rest of my deck since all I use are fliers.
I guess I'll have to try it out and see if I like it better. I am curious about what you guys think, though.
Last edited by Hanni; 10-18-2012 at 01:42 PM.
Well Hanni, I like your Control style of the deck and I actually do something similar although I never actually thought it through as much as you have.
I run a Ponder in my deck, and a couple Flusterstorm in my side to go with only 2 Pierces; but I think we might have 6-7 cards different in all.
It isn't always a matter of this card or that, sometimes the pilots style and thoughts matter as much as the cards themselves.
Cheers and thanks to both of you for sharing.
It only gets easier if you just repeat that every day. :D /troll
I still think that against the 2-drops, Spell Snare is better, or at least some combination of Spell Snare/Counterspell. Of the non-creature 2-drops that are a concern - Jitte, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Counterbalance, Sylvan Library - Snare works to stop it earlier. Creatures are still dealt with StP and Terminus. I prefer Counterspell to Snare, but being able to come online on the draw is a big deal. Right now I like a 2/2 Split with Snare/CS, and if I wanted more, I'd lean to CS being upped. Spell Pierce is strong too, so maybe a solid mix of 3/2/1 Pierce, CS, Snare, and backed up with Force of Will.
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
+1
I think the option whether to side out force of will has less to do with wanting it against some of Maverick's threats and more about how many cards in your SB you want to bring in for the maverick matchup. For example, many control lists are running 3-4 counterbalance in the main, which is usually pretty awkward against Maverick; however, in most sideboards I see there are usually 3-4 cards that you want against maverick anyway. A common SB strategy might be -3 counterbalance, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Terminus, +1 Porphyry Nodes, without much else in the board that really stands out as great against Maverick. As such, forces get left in kind of by default, even if they're not always stellar in that matchup. I usually have about 7 cards in my board that I really like against Maverick though, so I tend to end up siding out forces a lot.
The more important question is, "Am I having trouble with Maverick? Should I look to devoting more board spaces to cards I actually want to bring in against them?" If you answer yes to this, then that's when you'll start siding out forces, because you'll have other meaningful cards in the board to side in.
I need some help. I play in a playgroup that includes a guy that plays RUG. For whatever reason, I struggle with this match up. What can I do to make this a bit easier? I know if I land CounterTop lock I am in pretty good shape. However, he likes to save hi Krosan Grips for that. Any suggestions?
Deck List
2 Tundra
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
7 Island
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
3 Counterspell
1 Karakas
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Counterbalance
1 Arid Mesa
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Moat
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
I used to play some Mishra's Factory in my Miracleblade-build. They are pretty strong against RUG due to the following reasons:
1) They kill an early Mongo.
2) They trade with an late Mongo.
3) They buy you a turn, when chumping a Goyf.
This was enough for me, to say this MU was slightly positive. Far from being easy, ofc, but rather positive. And, playing only UW enables you to play Mishra without getting Colorscrewd too often. So you should maybe cut the Volcanics and add 3-4 Factories.
In addition to this: I like playing 3 Counterspell, but only in a pure-Miracle-list, as I do. But not in a Miraclebladelist. I'd swamp them for something else. If you are interested in my list, it should be posted on the last few pages.
Greetings
So the latest SCG winner deck plays 4 Jace, TMS. Is 4 the right number? Or 3 is sufficient?
I was pondering, (pun intended) that too!
I think i've settled on three JTMS and a moat instead of the fourth for the main. Ultimately whats, "right" is most likely meta dependent though.
We are on the same boat man, I have only 3 Jace. Plus now his price is on the rise again($100 on scg now -.-) so I am a bit hesitant
I really think 3 Jaces is correct, we have 2 Entreat the Angels, Cliques and Snapcaster Mages as alternative Wincons. We're not like Landstill where there is just a corner possibility to win without Jace. It just feels much smoother imo. I play this deck since summer and just swapped recently to Canadian *****, but still like it, also because I got good results (2 times winning the local tourney (~25 people) 4:1 and 5:0 and some Top 8's) with it. Here's what I played back then:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Arid Mesa
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Glacial Fortress
3 Tundra
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Ponder
3 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Peacekeeper
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Counterbalance
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Disenchant
I didn't test post RtR and wanted to ask if you guys have any suggestions to make it a better deck. I am not sure if Peacekeeper is still playable. I mean he's great against Dredge, Elfball, Random and to a lesser extend Gobs (if they boarded out their Incinerators, what I think most good players will do). But I think he really sucks against BUG midrange strategies packing Decay?!
The Red Splash is another interesting approach (Red Blast and Sulfur Elemental), I'm just not sure if it's worth it, because the Decks where I want Red Blast play Wastelands (except Combo maybe) and more than 1 Volcanic is really diluting the manabase imo, and Sulfur Elemental is in a meta with not so much Lingering Souls and there like just often dead Sideboard Space. Who is playing with splash?
Are you thinking Vedalken Shackles is worth Sideboard Space (same problem as with Peacekeeper)?
Would be happy about answers and further deck development...
Greetings Johannes Gutbrod
Personally I think 4 Jace is the way to go. His versatility is unmatched and his ability to create a mountain of card advantage often wins the game on its own. You want to see him every game, and usually in multiples because he will get killed a lot. The 4th Jace means a lot of important things. Most notably are the increased ability to abuse miracles, finding a second Jace easier after pitching to force of will, and an advantage in the mirror/Stoneblade matchups. Certainly the mana cost of Jace can sometimes be awkward, but his power more than justifies any awkwardness you may encounter.
As for Peacekeeper, he's definitely playable, but I just don't think he's what you want. He can crush the matchups he's good in like Merfolk, Dredge, Elves, sometimes Maverick or RUG G2, but really anything else? Note that he isn't good vs. Omni-tell because the only thing it shuts down is Emrakul, which is maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of their win-cons. He's not good against Goblins because of Siege-Gang Commander. So, what really is he doing for you?
I think Vedalken Shackles is a great card, but probably no more than a 1-of in the board (or main, main is really great too). It has a ton of power, but sometimes is too slow G1. Generally G2 your deck will be more streamlined, so it will be easier to play. If part of your sideboard is aimed at beating creatures, I'd definitely consider this.
As for your sideboard, you have some general utility cards. Try and think about what matchups you want to target, and that might help you focus your board a bit more. I think if you do this, then you'll end up cutting Peacekeepers, for example.
By the by, I think Disenchant is terrible in the sideboard. I would always rather have Oblivion Ring, because ring is way more flexible, and the 2cc of disenchant won't matter much when you really need it anyway. (At least, compared the flexibility of ORing.)
Also, if you're playing only two-color, I'd recommend some more utility lands, as you don't need to have so many colored sources. Some good choices are Academy Ruins if you run some Engineered Explosives (Although perhaps worse without Batterskull though); Mishra's Factory, which I think is the best in a two color list; Kor Haven which is really underrated; or Dust Bowl, which can be nice in grindier games, though it's not my favorite.
I am tempted to put a fourth planeswalker in my deck, but I am afraid it will mess up my counterbalance curve. The card I would cut is my 2nd snapcaster, but that leave with only SIX 2-mana spells. That seems very low. It's only one less than I am already running, but it already felt light. I could make up for that by switching a spell pierce into a counterspell, but I don't want to do that. The other option would be to trim a force of will. This is something I have been thinking about for a while now. What holds me back is not the main, but the sideboard. If I cut the force, I think it has to go into the board. But that screws things up there, since I don't want to go down to 3 graveyard cards, and I don't feel comfortable cutting any of the other things.
haha, we need to see your list, dude!
Disenchant used to be good with Snapcasters. However I've since trimmed my snaps to 2 so the flashback isn't as important anymore. I'm currently playing 2 Detention Spheres instead because it's flexible in the Stoneblade/miracle mu. It kills walkers, equipment and entreat tokens. If you're lucky it can also deal with counterbalance.
It is also useful against Mav as it takes down sylvan/equip as well as dudes. Another great thing is that it also does work in the show and tell mu. The only thing it doesn't help much against is griselbrand as griselbrand can immediately draw a ton. Against omni and emrakul, it's fantastic.
Next is the question of the 4th terminus or a supreme verdict. I'm leaning towards playing 1 verdict over the 4th terminus because occasionally you get those double terminus in opening 7 hands. Also, verdict is blue so it's not totally dead against combo since it pitches to force.
Right now goblins is a major problem. I simply cannot beat it. I'm thinking of playing a moat and an enlightened tutor in the board to combat gobs. Any other good anti gobs cards? What's most effective? I have 2 slots max for this matchup. Peacekeeper is not too good as gempalm etc can take it down easy.
Edit: Tested Verdict a bunch. Double white killed it, it's really hard to play around wastes/ cast verdict on T4. You can't consistently get double white. Terminus is just better at sweeping.
Last edited by ivanpei; 11-04-2012 at 11:26 AM.
Got 1st at my local tournament (~25 people) with the following:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Glacial Fortress
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Ponder
2 Sulfur Elemental
3 Flusterstorm
3 Rest in Peace
2 Pyroblast
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Counterbalance
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Disenchant
A short summary of what I played against:
Round 1: ANT 2:0
G1: A Vendilion Clique combined with CounterTop means GG.
G2: Flusterstorm doubled by Snapcaster Mage and some additional protection win this game.
Round 2 : UWb Miracle 1-1-1
G1: He resolves Countertop, with winning the die roll, which I value quite high in the mirror (no Pierce for T1 Top...) and my blind balances misses 7 times :(
G2: The opposite happens, I resolve Jace.
G3: We have 5 minutes left, and no one finds an Entreat, obvious ;)
Round 3 : Maverick 2:0
The MU is really easy as long as they don't resolve Mother/Safekeeper + Teeg imo.
Round 4 : Doomsday 2:1
G1: He scoops after Turn one Top, Turn two Balance.
G2: I keep a hand without Force but with CounterTop and loose to a turn 2 kill.
G3: I win after a difficult decision to play a second Clique, although having one played in the same turn to take his Dommsday he had drawn from the first Clique (Mindgames...)
Round 5 : False Cure 2:0
I ha've recurrable Swords and Counterspells, so it's quite easy.
Means 4-0-1 and Wasteland for first place.
Edit:
4 Jaces is something I really want to try, with a resurgence of Control decks in my meta, this seems very viable. I think I would cut the third Snapcaster from my list. Thoughts?
I prefer Disenchant for a couple of reasons: Firstly it's Instant speed, 2 mana and not RedBlast able, but more important, I prefer it vs Maverick, handling our biggest enemy, Sylvan Library (and Choke), without the possibility to get Pridemaged or Grip'd. Against OmniShow etc. I think the MU is positive anyway so it doesn't matter that much. Our meta has Affinity and Enchantress, another reason to include this maindeck. I think these slots are meta dependent....
Last edited by zerzab11; 11-04-2012 at 05:59 PM.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
/
Reply With Quote