@Arianrhod
Would you mind explaining your reasoning in the changes from the Rector list in the primer and your current Rector list?
Kokusho -> Yosei
2 Elspeth + Wood Elves -> 2 Sakura-Tribe Elder + Starved Rusalka
So i'm sort of interested in Nic Fit at the moment and when I checked the thread I saw some talk about Arianrhad's primer/lists. As a person who is pretty new to the archetype I figured I would read through it and here are a few things I was thinking about. As a nub my thoughts/ideas probably aren't worth as much as everyone elses but i'll post in-case someone is interested.
1 The decks primer really doesn't explain how to play the deck. Recurring Nightmare is a confusing card with many hidden combos that are not always apparent. A guy used polinchron + recurring against me to get infinite mana and draw his deck and then looped kokusho for the win against me a few days ago as one example. He did it so fast I was unable to figure out how/what he did and I sat puzzled for a while afterwords trying to piece it together. Granted I had never played with recurring nightmare before, but that's one of the reasons i'm here. I want to try the card/learn it's synergies.
Another example is the twin towers are a huge part of the deck that I overlooked when playing my first few times. I didn't understand why they were there, and I still don't fully get all of the interactions. Or when to use/get them. IMO a primer should explain the core combos/interactions.
2 Academy Rector as a 4 drop for enchantments that are all 4cc or less seems wasteful. I know the main focus is on using it as a tutor but... why not play a giant enchantment that automatically wins you the game when it hits? Seems hard enough getting her through counters/Exile effects. Might as well make the battle worth it. I saw someone talking about omniscience and while I haven't looked into alternatives that does certainly seem to be a insta-win card. Why durdle with Moat when you can just Omni-Grissle/Emrakul/Nightmare Loop?
When playing FOW maindeck generally you save it for cards that you absolutely must counter. When you have 4x Reactor, multiple 5 and 6 drops (+GSZ for them), and Deed/Arena/Recurring your opponent can't FOW them all. Especially with witness picking them back up again.
I'm trying to wrap my head around what the core of a 5-color list would be . . . my guess is something like the Rector+Omni+Nightmare Plan (Emrakul pales in comparison to a Nightmare loop), with Burning Wish able to fetch Diabolic Intent and other utility sorceries.
My recommendation for a land base would be 4 Gemstone Mine, 4 Reflecting Pool, 2 Tendo Ice Bridge, and some combination of Forbidden Orchard, City of Brass, and Tarnished Citadel, and then basics/utility lands.
Hey guys,
Been a while since I was actively reading the forum. Tomorrow I'm playing my BGw(r) list on a legacy tourney, so I got some questions for you guys ;).
First of all, the current list I'm using:
Creatures (14):
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Thrun, the last troll
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Grave Titan
Spells (25):
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Diabolic Intent
Land (21):
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Mountain
//SB:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Extirpate
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Peacekeeper
1 Thrun, the last troll
1 Kitchen Finks
1. I notice there are barely any traditional BGw lists around anymore (that is, being posted). The focus seems mainly on BGu/scapeshift/punishing fire decks, and blue just ain't my color. So, any up-to-date BGw-lists people can post?
2. I took Thragtusk out. He stalls the game, but isn't much of a thread in my opinion. I'd rather have a punishing Titan/Sigarda. Still I see him heavily played. Do you guys think he is that good? Might be my list (i.e. no recurring nightmare) just isn't that suited for Thragtusk.
3. Anyone experience with Wolfir Silverheart? Anyone experience with Reveillark? (seems really good, nearly all your creatures have a power of 2 or less, including Eternal Witness to take back anything you need).
Thanks in advance,
Job
Wolfir can be pretty good, testing him in my online build atm.
However i wouldn't play KotR and possibly cut back on the Swords, you're running 3 Deeds, 4 Swords, Abrupt Decay and Pulse now. which in my opinion isn't needed. I'd cut 1-2 of the Swords.
Thragtusk is really really good, even if you don't run Recurring Nightmare, being able to Zenith for something that gains you 5 life, and brings 5 power and isn't very easy to remove (due to the beast on death) makes it pretty good in the mid-game, or against fast/burn decks.
In your list i probably wouldn't play Thrun either, because Sigarda fullfils nearly the same role, but being alot stronger.
Hm, I don't think I agree on you about the Swords. They are one of the mainreasons I'm playing white. I think I do need the removal as well, since I'm not countering anything whatsoever. If you would cut out 1-2 swords, kotr and thrun, what cards would you suggest?
Thanks for the quick response!
One other card I'm considering, but really having my doubts about, is Vraska the Unseen. Any thoughts?
Edit: Can I see what list you are playing currently, Viridia?
My GBW List is a Rector list, so can't really compare it very well :)
I have found out however, that with the Rector list 1-2 Swords alongside 1-2 Pulses and 3 Deed is well enough for removal.
I'd suggest getting the Thragtusk in and possibly a Recurring Nightmare, because you can still Tutor for it with Diabolic Intent, and it's quite amazing with Tusk/Titans/Huntmaster to make a quick finish.
Maybe you could play 1 Pulse, 2 Swords, 2 Abrupt Decay and 3 Deeds as removal orso? I believe the Abrupt Decays are often better, because you'll generally spend your first turn casting discard/top/Explorer anyway.
Also, i haven't really didn't have time to test Vraska yet, but i believe Arianrhod said she disappointed him.
I'll consider the Thragtusk and Recurring Nightmare, thanks :). About the swords.. they give you different options compared to abrupt decay. They cost only 1, and can get rid of all CMC creatures (reanimator, show 'n tell, which are hard matchups imo). They both have their pro's and con's.. ^^ Might be wise to replace 1 StP for Abrupt Decay, though. Thanks again for your help.Originally Posted by Viridia
Seeing your sideboard, what are you using the 4 Peedles for? Also i think for Storm hate it's better to get some more targeted discard and possible a Surgical extraction or 2 because they also splash for other decks (Show and Tell, Reanimator, Dredge etc.) Rather then the Leylines.
While i can't really respond to your first point, as i'm not writing the Primer, i can to the second.
Rector is qood for multiple reasons:
It's a tutor, with Rusalka/Phyrexian Tower on instant speed.
It's a body for your Cabal Therapy and Intent.
It makes it able to run 1-offs like: Moat, Recurring Nightmare, Faith's Fetters aswell as silver bullets in your sideboard like Humility and Nether Void.
If you weren't running Rector, you wouldnt be able to fit in all these enchantments, and they're all gamebreaking vs some Matchups.
Sure you can Viridia. You just run Enlightened Tutor instead. It also gives you slightly better access to Top and any other artifacts you may be running (if people are on the Ruins plan). Also, it is ACTUALLY instant speed.
When you play enlightened tutor you can only tutor for a card and put in on top of your library. This makes it susceptible to shuffle effects. Also from your opponent. Once the choosen card is in your hand you will have to be able to cast it. This is counter sensitive.
With academy rector they can only counter rector. If they don't there is hardly any way to stop the trigger once you sac. the rector. This makes a big difference in a nic fit deck.
As you said you are new to this deck. So am I, but I found out the only way to get some understanding is Play the deck. This raises lots of questions but will give you many answers as well.
Good luck testing.
Currently Playing: Scapefit , Shardless BUG, Team America,
Enlightened Tutor is terribad in this synergy-based archetype. Can you sac Enlightened Tutor to Diabolic Intent to cheat Omniscience into play and then go infinitely infinite with Recurring Nightmare? Can you sac it to Cabal Therapy to strip their hand of a tribal deck's answer to Moat or a Storm deck's answer to Nether Void while getting said hate onto the board? And most importantly: what does it do for any ramp-based archetype?
Like Arianrhod's primer suggests: "Ask not what this deck can do for this card, but what this card can do for this deck."
After EpicLevelCommander posted his build of Future Sight Nic Fit (Dig Fit - http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/312247 ), I re-evaluated my approach to it after testing his build. The main problem I had with his build was that I frequently found myself getting slowed significantly by Wasteland, since he's got 2 Eternal Witness, 1 Acidic Slime, 2 Liliana, 2 Jace and 1 Future Sight. So you're frequently reliant on duals to get the job done, especially since his build only has 2 Island, so you need a dual for Future Sight. I changed everything around so that once you have three Islands, a swamp and a forest, you can cast everything in the maindeck (except a 1-of Eternal Witness, but it's there as a GSZ target mainly). This makes it significantly easier to dodge Wasteland entirely. Plus, I found Baleful Strix to be an extremely strong card for Nic Fit and wanted to optimize the list to fit it in as a 4-of. (Card advantage wins games, this is the mantra of Magic. Oracle+Strix+Jace+Deed=card advantage heaven!) It's a 2-mana flying creature-cantrip that forces them to overextend into a Deed and protects Jace! Jace has been absolutely amazing in the deck. At least half the wins come from Jace, using the creatures to clog up the board and Deeds to wipe it so he'll power right up to a win. Vs. Control decks, Jace is obviously amazing, too.
The Living Wishes have been great, too, as long as you're good at thinking a turn ahead. Coiling Oracle is quite good, since he's a body to block for Jace, sac to Therapy, cantrip or ramp, etc. but I may try replacing them with Cliques- Clique can be disruption or a cantrip for you. Flash&flying helps you deal with enemy Planeswalkers. 3 power means rather than just chumping, you'd usually kill whatever it blocks. The "reveal their hand" part would be really nifty with Therapy, if you either haven't played one yet or played one several turns ago and didn't flash it back yet. Plus, the early pressure could be useful. Dunno if its worth the 3-mana or not.
Lands
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
Creatures
2 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Baleful Strix
2 Coiling Oracle
1 Deathrite Shaman
Spells
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Future Sight
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Living Wish
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
Sideboard
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Duress
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Magus of the Future
1 Maze of Ith
1 Acidic Slime
I like this guy, this Greenpoe guy.
Not so much his list (Baleful Strix and Coiling Oracle don't sit well with me because why play a chump-blocking cantrip), but because of his analysis of my list, namely the 2 basic Islands and the Magus/Future Sight. And I like your solution to that, Greenpoe: drop a fetch for a 3rd Island.
And his list looks pretty nifty (outside of its similarities to my own): in fact, I'd even go so far as to say he's got a better chance of winning without the combo thanks to a greater amount of creatures and "I-Win" walkers [Liliana only stalls unless its against combo, though her with Jace is devastating against any deck].
EDIT: Question for anyone, but would a bounce effect be useful against OmniTell? Venser, Shaper Savant looks like a castable alternative to Angel of Despair/Oblivion Ring in Show and Tell matchups and has the added bonus of buying time like Thragtusk.
Went to Vestal this past weekend, playing Rector (as I had loaned out ScapeWish to Steve). I played like a complete monkey, and, in concert with my deck just absolutely digging in its heels and refusing to do anything (played vs aggroloam. Couldn't draw an Extirpate, or a GSZ), I ended up dropping at 1-3 in a very frustrated manner. That said, 3 good things:
1) Karmic revenge on Bobby. Last time I was there, he was the guy that t1 Hypergenesised me for lethal. This time he was playing Doomsday, and I got to introduce him to Nether Void. Now that the debts are cleared, maybe we'll be able to have some fun in the future. But that was payback =P (Sidenote: that was actually a really legit match. I'm still in awe that you were able to pull g1 out of your ass).
2) McKinney randomly was in possession of a set of german foil Huntmasters. I successfully acquired 3. Pictures will be posted in the pimp thread Sunday night -- Steve currently has them (he's practicing with ScapeWish for Mythic), and then I'm going to be getting them signed by the artist on Sunday courtesy of IlluxCon. That's a random and huge chunk of pimp for ScapeWish that I was -not- expecting on finding, ever....let alone in time to get them signed.
3) Steve and Louis (both on ScapeWish) did very, very well. Louis got top 4, and Steve ended up around 12th (but could have very easily top 8'd as well). Once Jupiter puts the footage up from the feature matches that Louis was in, I'll link them on here. I know one of his features was in the top 8 -- he smashed through Nick Patnode's goblins. There may have been a turn 4 kill in game three. I'm pretty sure he had a 2nd feature match as well, but I'm not sure what it was against. ScapeWish continues to prove itself to be a monster.
Relatedly, I saw a tweet from Brian Sondag that he got 26th at SCG St. Louis with Scapeshift, but SCG decided to be cool and only put up deck lists through 24th. I sent him back a tweet to find out if he was on Veteran Explorers or some other Scapeshift brew, but if he was on ScapeWish, there's another accolade for it as well.
Aside from my personal failings as a pilot and my deck being stubborn, though, there are a few relevant things to point out that I noticed from Jupiter.
The meta is in the process of shifting, hard. Show and Tell was almost completely gone, for one. That in and of itself opens up a ton of sideboard space for me. Also, Deathrite Shaman is the real deal, and he is enabling a large number of decks that couldn't exist beforehand. There were several Jund decks in the room, as well as a lot of Deathrite Junk (the finals between Eli and Komar was a Junk mirror). Now, the Deathrite Junk decks are designed to do the following sequence:
t1 Deathrite
t2 Liliana of the Veil, +1 until ultimate
t3-6 Disrupt/play Knight of the Reliquary
t6/7 Liliana ult, punch with KotR ftw.
This represents a few problems for us. Deathrite, as per Scavenging Ooze, can be an enormous pain in the dick. If there is any one card that might make us adopt more traditional spot removal, it's this guy. Planeswalkers can be an inordinate amount of trouble if they land early, and a t2 Liliana every game is not a fun thing, especially since this deck in particular is designed with her ultimate in mind. This isn't a deck that sits there and diddles her to "control the board." It is entirely focused on ulting her. Now, I didn't play vs this deck with Rector, so I can't say how that matchup is. Rector has Sigarda, which I think the Deathrite Junk deck just loses to. However, having 4 Deathrite Shamans means bad things for Rector-the-card, which could be a problem. It's hard to say. I'm not sure how worried we need to be about the Deathrite decks, but they are the future of the meta. We need to figure out where we stand in relation to them now and make the necessary changes before they are absolutely everywhere.
I ended up trying the pair of Abrupt Decays in my board for the event because I just couldn't come up with anything better to put in those slots. They ended up being above average, but not amazing. I played vs Miracles, Doomsday, Aggroloam, and DnT. They were good at killing Counterbalances, but my opponent always had more copies of Counterbalance, which sucked. It did kill a Seismic Assault in g2 vs Loam, which was relevant because Assault is the half of that deck that we care about (not their groundpounders). And it was useless vs DnT. It like, killed a Sword of Light and Shadow. Now, I do think that if we are talking about changes because of the Deathrite decks, Decay is probably a good place to start looking. It's a solid catch-all answer vs a lot of decks, and it kills Liliana of the Veil. If Deathrite Junk isn't bleeding us of resources while putting a serious clock on our board state, I don't think we care about that deck -at all-.
Also, as a parting shot, Enlightened Tutor is absolutely horrible. I used to run them in my sideboard, and I hated them even there. They have no synergy with the deck, and in fact have a great deal of anti-synergy. That they cost you a draw step is a -huge- deal. If you really want me to go on a tirade about why Enlightened Tutor sucks for Nic Fit, I will. But for now I'm just going to say that I have actually tried it and it is in fact horrible, and I'll see if that kills the topic or that before wasting my time explaining it.
@Ryno
Kokusho -> Yosei
2 Elspeth + Wood Elves -> 2 Sakura-Tribe Elder + Starved Rusalka
Kokusho vs Yosei is something that took me a long time to decide upon/realize which one is better. Kokusho seems better on the surface, since he lets you drain for 5, and, when looped through Nightmare, actually ends the game. It seems like Yosei doesn't win the game -- it just stalls out while you try to find something else to kill them with. However, the reverse is actually true. Kokusho can certainly win the game for you, but he cant't stop you from losing the game, which Yosei can. It turns out that if you stop your opponent from untapping for the rest of the game, that's a pretty good way to win the game, too -- and Yosei can save your bacon, where Kokusho can't. If you're facing down a board of multiple Goyfs, a Kokusho drain probably won't save your life. Yosei timewalking them, however, can buy you the time to draw into an answer. Also, something to keep in mind about Yosei: his effect stacks. So if you sac Yosei 3 times in a turn, they skip their NEXT THREE UNTAPS. What that means is that Yosei actually CAN kill your opponent. You make them skip an arbitrary number of untaps, then end the turn with Yosei in play and proceed to beat face until they die, looping him as necessary to keep them under lockdown.
The other three slots are much simpler to explain. Wood Elves was an experiment at the time, because Wood Elves is sex on a stick in ScapeWish. I thought it might be as good in Rector, but I was mistaken. Sakura-Tribes are far superior in Rector, as they ramp you from 2 -> 4, instead of 3 -> 5. Starved Rusalka is far more amazing than it looks on paper. Having a cheap, GSZable sac outlet is a big deal. It makes your Explorers better, as sometimes you don't have a Therapy or a Tower and your opponent is refusing to attack into them, and it makes your Rectors better (obviously). Relevant: it lets you sacrifice at instant speed, which means you can EoT an Explorer so your opponent doesn't get to take advantage of the ramp on their turn, or you can do some funny Rector tricks. Also, it protects your guys from exile via Swords. While Rusalka is out, nobody gets RFGd unless you say so, which means you can always recur your threats later. I've had multiple opponents have to Swords my Rusalka just on principle, because while he's hanging out, it can become really, really hard for them to effectively control the game.
Elspeth was a painful card to cut, because she's really good. However, at some point, the deck needs to function more off of internal synergies than just raw card power. Elspeth is a very powerful card, but she doesn't synergize as well as you would expect with the deck. She works well with Moat out, obviously, and her emblem makes Deed hilarious. But outside of that, she doesn't really contribute anything to the deck. Getting in a GSZ sac outlet and a backup source of ramp in the Tribe-Elders is a lot more important than having more power. We already have more power than most decks in the format. It's just a matter of smoothly accessing it.
That all make sense?
I mentioned a page or two back in the thread that I was going to a tournament with B/G Nic Fit. Anyway, I ended up winning, but the turn-up was miserable: 6 people. And two showed up with standard decks (they were almost completely new to magic). Although unfortunate, we tried our best giving them lots of information and hints about legacy, advicing them to start with either burn or affinity. One of them played the golgari event deck, but was crushed by Hive Mind. I gave him a bunch of legacy playable uncommons, including Inquisition of Kozilek, Duress, Darkblast and some other stuff I had extras of.
We decided prior to starting the tournament that we wanted 4 rounds of swiss and then finale. The tournament wasn't sanctioned, so it was all completely informal. Anyway, in the swiss I played against Burn (won 2-1, thank you Thragtusk), Hive Mind (lost 0-2, got crushed), BUG Shardless (won 2-1) and one of the newbies (won 2-0). Notably, I won 2-1 against Hive Mind in the finals. Game 1 I started with Cabal Therapy, successfully hitting Show and Tell. Next turn I sacrificed a Deathrite Shaman and flashbacked the cabal. The turn after that I landed a Sensei's Divining Top, searched my top 3, used the top and cast Thoughtseize. The turn after that I cast Eternal Witness, got Thoughtseize back from the graveyard and cast it again. Game two was all about the Leyline of Sanctuary. If he got the sanctuary, he basically made it impossible for me to interact with him. In the swiss he started game two with a leyline, and won on round two. There was sadness in my face as I looked at the useless discard spells in my hand.
However, game two in the finals, he mulled twice without finding it. Huzzah! The game essentially ended when I extirpated his Hive Minds. For reference, here is the deck I used:
Lands (22)
5 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Treetop Village
Creatures (13)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
Spells (24)
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
3 Sensei’s Divining Top-
4 Abrupt Decay
Walkers (3)
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Sideboard
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Duress
3 Extirpate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Choke
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Angel of Despair
1 Golgari Charm
I'm seriously considering cutting the Primeval Titan and adding another Thragtusk. It can be difficult getting 6 mana (7 for Green Sun) and Thragtusk really improves my match-ups against burn and aggro. In my experience, titan tends to arrive one turn too late against these decks. I would never cut the Tree-top Villages, however, even if I cut the titan. Man-lands rock against planeswalkers, I have killed many Jaces with them.
What do you think? Cut or keep Titan?
What version of this deck has the best matchup vs. combo? I am getting very frustrated because every week I go 2-2 because I win a couple matches against delver or maverick and then I play against high tide/MUD/belcher and just straight up lose. I'm currently on B/G but I want to add another color now that I have some extra money to spend. I can chalk up some of my losses to some pretty egregious mistakes like shuffling away tops or getting a Thrun out without regeneration mana, but there are still matchups that feel absolutely unwinnable and I seem to always get placed against the two people playing those decks out of the 16 in the room. My plan against combo currently is to side out all the deeds/removal and bring in cranial extractions and discard/extirpate.
Keep Titan, drop Thrun.
In my limited experience, Thrun, while a good card, lacks a lot of synergy with the rest of the deck. Titan, however, has so many uses, ranging from assembling Stronghold Tower to grind the win out to getting twin Treetops out for the 2-turn trample clock.
Having said that, Prime Time has lost a lot of its appeal for me as well, but that's mostly because Dig Fit can, well, dig into Stronghold Tower if it really needs it, and assembling it in one shot isn't as important as I thought it was.
@ Ayotte: RectorFit or IntuitionFit: the former because getting those enchantments on the board will seal the win for you, and the latter because Intuition into 3xCabal Therapy with bodies in the hand or on the board is absolutely devastating. But other than that, most versions straight up fold to combo, hence why I've elected to run Living Wish for the slower combo decks [i.e. Dredge/Reanimator, OmniTell/SneakShow, etc.]
You're in GB and want to win vs. combo? Run Hymn and a couple Liliana? I always liked Hymn in the GB version (excellent vs. combo & control), and Liliana does something vs combo, too.
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