If anything, I'd rather drop Titan than Thrun. One of my group has had success with Wolfir Silverheart and Kodama of the North Tree. Weird cards but Silverheart is very powerful with Shroud creatures since it makes it awkward on removal. 5 drops are very important in this deck since it's the critical mana spot. Titan also doesn't really have the impact that you would like a lot of the time.
I think the bigger question is what do you want that slot to do?
I tried 2 Hymns, but I didn't like them so now they are 2 Thoughtseizes, which I think is better for what I want the slots to do. I also run 3 Liliana, but I don't like her vs combo. I feel like she's much more useful vs. fair decks. It takes too long for the discard ability to be significant for it to work vs. combo.Originally Posted by Greenpoe
Two words:
Nether Void
Resolve Nether Void, or cheat into play via Rector, and any stack-based combo deck immediately dies. At that point the only thing you need to worry about is their out: Cranial them naming Wipe Away, see if if they have like Chain of Vapor or whatnot, and go from there. It's almost impossible for stack-based combo to beat Nether Void, and it makes Omniscience's life a living hell, too, although they can get out of it a lot easier.
Rector as I have it set up right now is actually surprisingly good vs combo, but the various BUG lists should, theoretically, be even better vs combo as they can combine discard with counters, and then prison on top of that.
@ Zirath: Well, in that case, Thrun would indeed have more viable synergy than PrimeTime would, as Silverheart provides a whopping 16-power when paired with Thrun. Again, since a lot of this deck is based around synergy, one card may not be right for one list, but right for another.
@ Ayotte: Liliana of the Veil, when paired with additional discard, absolutely wrecks fast combo if on the play (which, ya'know: they most likely will not be for that extra card and chance to go lethal Turn 1). The ability to keep them from recovering is crucial for GB to win.
Isn't Nether Void just too slow? It'll usually be coming out turn 4-5, by which point ANT could just drop a few Rituals or LED, get Ad Nauseam and win. Reanimator will just EOT Entomb and Reanimate (with Force/Daze backup). S&T can will drop Omniscience/Griselbrand/Emrakul on turn 2-3 (and occasionally turn 1-with counter backup). Nether Void won't really help against this stuff! I mean obviously you've got discard, but they've got counters. You've got Nether Void, but they just win before that's relevant (and have hate after it comes out). Little/minimal pressure= combo decks are happy. G1 is going to be a loss most of the time vs most of the combo decks, so any hate that's specifically for combo needs to be good enough to win G2 and G3.
Keep in mind that we run tutors and acceleration. For example, vs Bobby's Doomsday deck, I had the following sequence in g3:
Bayou, Explorer, pass.
Phyrexian Tower, sac Explorer for Plains + Forest. Bayou untapped, BB floating. B floating, Cabal Therapy. Cast Rector, 0 floating, sac it to flashback Cabal Therapy, fetching Nether Void. Therapy names Dark Ritual, hitting 3. Pass.
That's t2. Now, obviously that's a nut high, but getting Void out on t3 is actually quite common, and should be eminently possible given that we have Therapies and Extirpates to annoy combo with in the first turn or two. Remember the Hooks and Needles. You needle them early game, then you lay them low with a right hook that they have a hard time recovering from.
I mean yeah, sometimes they go Petal, Tomb, Show and Tell with Force backup and you just die. Or they lead off with Leyline of Sanctity. Or they go land, spirit guide, spirit guide, cascade, hypergenesis, Emrakul, Progenitus, Akroma's Memorial, and you just die.
That's the price we pay for not playing Force of Will. Sometimes combo just wins. For everything else, there's Nether Void.
Im getting so tired of being run over by combo decks. My meta is full of them and I don't know what to do.. (playing rector)
Against reanimator, belcher, storm, dream halls(this shit crushed me totaly yday) I scoop game 1 right away. No chance of winning what so ever. Game 2 & 3 its still really hard.
I have 12 cards in my board against reanimater and I still lose somehow. (4extirpate, 3 duress, 1 Cranial extraction, 1 Ooze, 1 Humility, 2 O-ring (for s&t). If I have extirpates, he has show and tell. If I got o-rings, he has reanimate. If I land humility, he eventually bounces it and plays ***ing griselbrand (why isnt this card banned yet?!) and draws half his deck and counters everything I do. If I succesfully cast an Ooze and have it enter the battlefield, he entombs for Crippling Fatigue. Yeah, that's right. Duress/therapy doesn't do too much niether, buys me some time but never enough seems like
Sorry but im kinda in a bad mood right now and I don't have anyone nearby to show out my anger.
Anyone planning on going to the GP this weekend? There are scheduled Legacy events on Friday and Saturday which I'm planning on playing in. And just bought a set of Deathrite Shaman (which hopefully get here before the weekend) which I'm going to get signed since Argyle is going to be there.
*hugs litenkatt*
It's gonna be ok, alright? Maybe someday Wizards will once again realize how truly degenerate non-interactive decks are for any metagame.
True but Primeval Titan is still unfortunately underwhelming in this format. Only very specific versions of Nic Fit can really utilize it. Thrun has the benefit of stonewalling almost all the big threats in the format.
Fair enough.
I'm strongly considering moving to a Shaman deck. 1) I'm a little tired of playing RectorFit, 2) Shaman is a serious problem for Rector triggers, 3) I've got pretty much everything I need for it. I'm booked for GP Denver and want a couple options for that. If Shaman decks look like a big part of the meta at that point in time I don't think I want to be on the Rector plan (though it's a long way away still).
Of course RUG reasserted itself somewhat at SCG this weekend, so who knows.
<soapbox>
Considering they more or less don't design with Legacy in mind, this seems unlikely. Omni is totally fine in standard because how the heck can you get it into play? Outside of Legacy it's just a Johnny card. In Legacy it's bad news. Besides, I really don't want a format that's just smashing creatures together. I like that we have crazy things like Nic Fit and High Tide and Doomsday and S&T and Storm and Belcher (well, maybe not Belcher). The diversity of Legacy is a big reason it's awesome (IMHO) and getting rid of combo would get rid of a lot of that. It stinks when we're paired with it, but the prevalence of RUG at least keeps it down to a more reasonable level (thank you Daze/Pierce/FoW). When something in Legacy makes me feel like I'm playing in Black Summer again, then it will be a sad day (though I kinda liked Black Summer because I was early on the Necro plan back then and got lots of easy wins ;)
We've got better hate for a lot of things than ever (RIP, Thalia, etc, etc) so I think WotC is doing fine. Believe me, I curse as much as anyone everytime I lose to Belcher on T0 but that's the price to pay to be able to play in a format as diverse as Legacy.
</soapbox>
True: I'd rather have a Permission-Combo-Other format rather an Aggro/Tempo Format. But I'd rather the combo decks still have to interact with their opponent even on the play . . . so maybe not a direct hit, but an indirect hit in the form of banning Lotus Petal, LED, and Spirit Guides?
EDIT: Also, concerning the Shaman, I have trouble believing he's any more of threat than Birds of Paradise, Noble Hierarch, or Dryad Arbor, yet I have no trouble understanding the threat of a turn 2 walker (whether a JMS vis Solands into Signet/Talisman or a manadork into Veil). My question then is: how did this deck deal with manadorks originally, and what makes Deathrite Shaman different from other manadorks?
In both combo matches that I played last Saturday, I never got to 4 mana to cast the extractions that I had in my hand, which means I wouldn't have been casting Nether Void either.
I agree that combo is necessary for a healthy format. I don't like playing combo, as I like to interact, but I think the checks and balances between combo, control, and aggro/tempo keep the format healthy.
To be fair, the only thing you need to beat combo, is knowing how to.
Hitting with your therapy 90%+, extracting the right targets, doing it when it's the best time is extremely important.
I think that's why people lose to combo (aside from the T0 kills ofcourse, we can't do much against those) ANT, TES, DDFT, S&T, High Tide etc. are all beatable, if you just execute the first 1-2 turns well.
I've played combo for a long time, so i know exactly what to do against them, but anyone can learn it, if you take the time to understand the decks.
Because he can Exile stuff from graveyards?
>_> ok, let me rephrase that a little better:
What does Shaman do that other manadorks can't in terms of ramping into a 3 CMC Walker?
Which, now that I think about it, your answer does explain that much: Shaman isn't dead late or mid game like other manadorks, so even if they do answer the Walker, you still have control of life and graveyard.
Still: what we could do to things like Noble Hierarch and Birds of Paradise should still apply to Deathrite Shaman, and most of the things Deathrite Shaman enables should also be enabled by Noble Hierarch or Birds of Paradise.
I think you're too focused on his ramp. He also keeps goyf a reasonable size and mongoose off threshhold. Can keep lavamancer off. Stones reanimator. Probably even helps a little against High Tide since you can reduce their recursion. I don't think any of his abilities by themselves is all that, but cumulatively, he's pretty good.
(I think they've had a lot of discussion on Shaman over on The Rock thread. Probably better to go there for a more detailed look.)
The big concern with deathright shaman is that he exiles rector in response to the trigger, exile therapies, exiles ewit targets, etc. He is a 1 drop scavaging ooze that makes mana instead of costing mana and is played as a 4 of not a 1 of.
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