... Care to exchange luck for a few tournaments? The deck needs its land drops til at least turn 5 and doesn't want to waste a cantrip to find one. I've seen successful lists running 24 but damn man, if you can hit it with 22 all the power to ya.Originally Posted by death
With 22 lands 9-fetch I am still getting mana flooded often
I ran this list http://mtgpulse.com/event/11100#154251 to a decent finish this weekend.
It felt pretty sweet, but I would probably exchange the Confidants in the board for something a bit more proactive against combo (and control mirrors); maybe 2 Duress, 1 Snapcaster and another Clique. Besides that, I am actually thinking that the Deeds are not necessary at all, and that 3 Engineered Plague would do a better job equalizing the bad matchups (Goblins, Elves) and work as good or better against Maverick and Death & Taxes. Between immense carddrawing of Ancestral Visions and Jace, the 1 for 1 removal might be enough. What do you think?
Smaller tweaks: I can see the case for cutting 1 Innocent Blood for a Ghastly Demise, and bringing back the third Wasteland, to get a few more outs to man-lands.
Kitchen Finks are btw sweet - Innocent Blood, Liliana and Jace all make them provide extra life, while delivering beatdowns.
Anyone tested Deathrite Shaman in the board? I witnessed a BUG player using them in the side this weekend as his GY hate, RUG Delver hate and life gain, and he said they had been amazing.
Currently playing Manipulate Fates. Learn about the Magic Card Market.
I haven't tried it myself, but one of the local BUG pioneers is trying them out, and seems to be happy. I have some doubts: As graveyard hate it is slow, and against Dredge useless almost.
As lifegain it is decent, but will probably just suck a Lightning Bolt, which is ok but underwhelming. As RUG Delver hate I think it is awkward, since it is slow, dies to Bolts which don't have good targets otherwise, and it dies to Innocent Blood.
I played Team America against the above mentioned BUG player, and his Shamans from the board were good - but mostly because they ramped him manawise. I think it is a great card, but it needs just the right niche of a deck to really shine.
I play with Standstills and just added 25th land because the card I found myself wanting to draw most was just another land. I tried Bobs in the board but found them not needed, so I just run 3 Clique and have more room for other answer cards.
I highly recommend anyone jamming BUG Control to try Ancestral Visions. I tried it after seeing Ben Feingersh play it at a recent SCG Event, and have been playing 2 in my list every since. Has been insane nearly every time I've drawn it, and makes a noticeable difference in the RUG matchup so far.
What does your list look like? So far I've been happy with 4 jace/loam/lili as my CA engine and I'd be curious as to what you cut for the AVs.
Here you go sir:
Lands (24)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
Spells (29)
4 Brainstorm
2 Ancestral Vision
1 Life From the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Innocent Blood
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
Creatures (2)
2 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers (5)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
Sideboard (15)
2 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Raven's Crime
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Damnation
1 Darkblast
1 Perish
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague
Any thoughts welcome, especially in the SB, as I haven't done much there.
I was a long time supporter for Vision until I switched to Standstill as Vial decks disappeared and combo decks become more played. Right now I like Standstill more, but my opinion may change along with metagame.
Yep mostly because Vial decks are not disappearing at the moment. Goblins and Merfolk are at an one-years-high or something.
I really do like the list posted above. I'd love to fit another Life from the Loam somewhere in there. Im rather sold on that Visions aswell, they've been awesome in the limited testing I've done with it.
Did anybody try a single Vraska? I think Vraska could replace Jace #4 and would allow us to have an more diversified Planeswalker-army.
Is the 2-2 Discardspit really worth it? I've never been a fan of playing a Discardsplit in Esperblade. I can see the reason with the missing Lifegain here, but I'd still be playing 4 Thoughtseize, to be honest.
Greetings
Thanks! Yeah, I like Loam, but it just hasn't been incredible for me. Okay and good, but not amazing. Maybe -1 Deed +1 Loam is possible if you like that effect. You could even move a Force of Will or Inquisition to the SB if you wanted the 2nd Loam as well.
The 2/2 Split is mostly arbitrary at this point - it's very possible that 4 Thoughtseize is correct, with 2 Duress in the board instead if you want the extra discard spells.
Lately, I've been thinking about the manlands. Perhaps it's because my MD is Clique-less and I almost never go on the beatdown plan, but I'm thinking about cutting down to 2, or maybe testing with none. I just find that I'm never happy when I draw a Factory.
There are far too many games where I wind up stabilizing at something along the lines of 4-6 life for me to run a full set of thoughtseize, I've been sitting pretty on a 3/1 split of IoK/Thoughtseize and enjoying it quite a bit. The cards explain themselves so I wont. Testing out Visions today instead of studying for my qualifying exams, with -1 Snapcaster - 1 Ven Clique MD + 2 Visions. Will reply after I spend a few hours playing some games.
two loams is too many most of the time .thats why there is one in the main and one in the board in alot of builds
Jace is being played at higher numbers now so having more jaces to win the "jace war" seems important . also vraska is 5cc as appossed to jaces 4...and really vraska is NOT better than jace.so why would you want a diversified planwalker suite when you could just have the good ones? also it lessens your fow pitchables cards which can be relavent
This deck stabalizes at very low life totals almost all the time. The reason for the split is because thoughtsieze IS more powerfull but inquisition is almost as good and not having to pay life IS relavent
i do like 2 ee in the mainboard and 1 deed with deathrite shaman but thats a little more "experimental" but it hasn't been bad
IoK > Thoughtseize against decks packing burn spells (mono-red, UR/x) so in a wide open field where there is likelihood to be paired with a random burn deck, the 2/2 split seems a rational choice. Burn is a bad matchup to begin with but it's not a lost cause. I see where you're coming from, 4 Thoughtseize may not be an issue in a deck that has means of gaining life back (i.e. BSkull, Tendrils of Agony, Griselbrand, Vampire Nighthawk etc). With this deck however, you are stuck with the remaining life points, and at 1-2 life you can't cast/snapcast Thoughtseize or even fetch, in these situations I still managed to pull of wins with Jace T-M-S being the MVP, more often than not.Is the 2-2 Discardspit really worth it? I've never been a fan of playing a Discardsplit in Esperblade. I can see the reason with the missing Lifegain here, but I'd still be playing 4 Thoughtseize, to be honest.
My current thoughts on this archetype:
When Decay and Vraska were spoiled I started thinking and testing again. My thoughts back then was that a "creatureless" pure Jace-control was the best for BUG. However that changed and I am thinking more into a midrange direction, since deathrite shaman waaay better than I anticipated and Vraska is much morse than I thought.
I started working on adapting this deck from back then with the new toys and came up with the following conclusions. BUG Delver is still suboptimal & a worse version of RUG delver, BUG "creatureless" is still very tough to play in a tournament environment with much much slower kills as mirales - Also Terminus > Deed - BUT BUG control (as described in this Post) has advantages over Stoneblade as the "midrangy-control" deck.
A look back
When delver & snapcaster came out BUG control was played as a discard based control deck with snapcaster, goyf & Hymn and a transformational deed control style from the SB (see the primer of the thread). This fell out of favour because:
- RUG Delver was so strong and attracted most of the blue mages (including myself)
- BUG was weak to burn strategies which had their hype with U/R Burn and Burn winning a couple of opens,...
- Stoneblade was the better control deck against a wide meta due to batterskull and swords to plowshares.
The weaknesses of the old archetype:
- Hymn forcing you into a non-basic manabase inheriting weaknesses against Wasteland (especially developing your manabase early), and hate like Price of Progress moon effects,...
- suboptimal black removal: too conditional, too expensive or costing you life.
- Weak against GY based strategies.
- No Life Gain (hard to get back against RUG, Burn,... compared to SFM-Batterskull)
- Hard to gain tempo advantage - not allowing you to make small mistakes.
So you see where I go with this. Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay adress all of these points, making the deck much stronger overall.
Before I talk about my current list (in dev) and specific card choices, the main incentive to play the deck for me are the strengths against UW based strategies, since abrupt decay handles Rest in Peace, Counterbalance,... while deed handels all their non-jace winconditions, basically forcing them to win with Jace against us. While the deck is probalby still stlightly positive against Maverick and should put up a fairly even fight against RUG. Combo is a pretty positive matchup and the deck is now much better against a wide meta than the old BUG control deck (primer) or the creatureless version.
So brewing about the deck I somehow looked at stoneblade since those decks have a lot on common in the sense of beeing blue based, midrange control strategies. Both Stoneblade and BUG have strenght & weaknesses comparing the "star" removal and the "star" 2 drop creature.
Stoneforge vs. Goyf: Vulnerable but Jitte & Baterskull vs Best wall & fast attacker "immune" to red
Swords vs. Abrupt Decay: Best creature removal an cheap vs. expensive, but uncounterable and flexible
What makes the difference imo is deathrite shaman, which is so flexible. Never underestimate the tempo advantage you can get with a mana-elf, but his reach, life-gain and the occasional hate have been fantastic. That he can be played off a swamp or an underground sea is also a big plus in terms of fixing green mana. Shaman and the utility of deed, maelstrom pulse, sylvan library or Life from the Loam made me go for Green over White.
my current decklist:
//Manabase: 23 lands, 3 Wasteland, 4 Basics
Altough having heavier mana needs than Esper, I feel Wasteland is still the best option.
Deathrite shaman produces mana and need lands in the yard... Still thinking about going more into a Esper kind of manabase. Life from the Loam is much weak when playing Shaman.
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
//Disruption
This has been proven as a very good combination
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
//Removal
1 Mana removal is necesary thanks to mother & Lackey...
2 Ghastly Demise
4 Abrupt Decay
//Utility
Ponder is very good in the early game and the best manafixer.
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
//Creatures (Utility & Primary Wincon)
Goyf deserves it's spot because of strengths vs. Canadian and aggro over ooze.
Vendilion vs 4th Snapcaster: Debateable - respecting miracles.
Shaman currently as a 3 of. He is often not the correct turn 1 play.
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster mage
1 Vendilion Clique
//Sideboard
4 Ancestral Visions
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Surgical Extraction
The SB Visions are great against all control matchups of course but I also prefer it as card advantage vs. aggro decks that can handle Jace or where jace is not really good like like Goblins, Merfolk, RUG.
So again: when playing this deck you can ask the question: "why this over Esperblade". As stated above my reasoning is that the UW/Miracle/stoneblade matchup is much better with BUG than with Esper, while both decks have decent game against the rest of the field.
Currently playing: Elves
A friend of mine and I have been constructing this. this is my build, his is a bit different.
4 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Island
2 Swamp
25
3 Force of Will
3 Mana Leak/Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
10
4 Baleful Strix
4
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
5
3 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Damnation
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Entomb
2 Life from the Loam
1 Darblast
15
+2 Open. I was thinking 1 Sylvan Library and 1 Pulse or something. So far it's been pretty fun to play.
-Matt
so why would you play this version over something like -1 island, -1 trop.-1 snapcaster, -1 jace
+4 delver?(cuz thats the direction this is going) it looks like a non tempo -tempo deck ..without the control elements is jace supposed to win games or is he not the win con anymore?
what is strix for?
why damnation and e.e. over deed??(i like e.e. just not wwithout deed)
why two lftl when most decks run more basics?(you run 4)
no snapcaster w/ 25 lands?
If I do what you suggest the deck would like a non temop tempo deck. Now the deck is a midrange-controlish deck. If you want to build a BUG tempo version, you look at Canadian and build something like this (in my oponion an inferior delver deck; I said this months ago and abrupt decay did not change it; Canadian is the best delver deck). If you mean with "this is the direction this is going" that some SCG people played some BUG delver versions - true. But you should always ask yourself if this is the best thing to do. SCG also brought you stuff like Canadian without Nimble Mongoose but Snapcaster Mage or Canadian without Stifle... don't get me wrong I netdeck a lot and see what others are doing, but the biggest purpose of a forum like this is to think for yourself.
what do you mean "without the control elements"?
without deed maindeck? A "creatureless" deed deck does not have the luxury of running a ton of good permanents like deathrite shaman, sylvan library, tarmogoyf,.. hence I have it in the sideboard. You still have enough elements to control the game and to win with jace. Most of the time that means winning in the sense of brainstorming into oblivion rather than fatesealing - which is a much safer and faster way imo. But much like Esperblade you dont rely on it - you can also just get into the red-zone with goyf + friends.
Currently playing: Elves
Regarding Deathrite Shaman:
I am (extremely) slowly learning the awesome value of Deathrite Shaman, but I think it works best in an Aggro-Control Midrange shell. Since Deathrite isn't considered a "threat," at least in my mind, it doesn't belong in the super-grindy disruption-control version whose only creatures are 2-3 Snapcasters.
The "local favorite" control-ly version needs as many counter-threats and counterspells as possible to give it good anti-control anti-aggro balance and Deathrite takes up 4 very-needed spots. Also, the deck doesn't need any real acceleration since it's designed to grind out, stabilize, and take over with Jace, Lili, or manlands/Snapcaster/Clique.
Of course, if you don't have the patience to play this grindy version that has an answer to anything, play the Aggro-Control version, which is definitely effective and fun, just a completely, utterly different game.
Not that anyone is really touting the holy-shit mofo bonkers Deathrite Shaman anywhere but The Rock thread, I just wanted to very clearly emphasize how much the two versions are diverging.
And yes, Deathrite eats a Bolt like a champ.
On another note: do people find 22, 23, 24, or 25 lands is the magic number? I'm finding when running 22 I'm always scrambling to find another land, but I can't figure out what to cut to fit more in, as I also think 3 Snapcasters is the magic number...
Here's my current list, which I am so very in love with.
//Planeswalkers
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
//Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
//Instants
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Ghastly Demise
//Sorceries
1 Life from the Loam
3 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Damnation
1 Maelstrom Pulse
//Enchantments
3 Pernicious Deed
//Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Damnation
SB: 1 Force of Will
Whack lists currently playing:
Rector Nic Fit
Bizarro Stormy
Rest In Pieces
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