If there are CC0-3 spells in their hands, you would rarely want to take CC>4 spells.Originally Posted by kingsey
Higher CC spells are taken care of by Spell Pierce.
Why would you discard a Terminus rather than a Miracle enabler?
Batterskull is not the problem, Stonforge Mystic is.
On the Sep 2011 Ban List Updates,
Thoughtseize grabs anything. When your deck is based around a single creature getting there in such a diverse format, taking anything is pretty good. It's not like we're playing Snapcaster Mage, you can afford the 2 life.
I don't like exposing a green source for Abrupt Decay personally. The card is the real deal, but I don't think it's a generic replacement for the maindeck removal.
I could not find a BUG Threshold - Thread so I will post here, even though this deck is not Team America.
I've been toying around with BUG Thresh and was comparing it to RUG Thresh as my main goal, as I do not play BUG because I like it, more because I think it is stronger than RUG. (in a certain metagame). - or atleast want to verify or falsify that statement.
Here are my conclusions after some amount of testing.
+ We can deal with Knight, Ooze and Knight when resolved
+ An resolved Counterbalance is easily beatable
+ Discard out of the Sideboard
- Our Removal can not aim at the opponents face
- We do not have sufficient good and cheap tribal-removal
~ 7 of our Spells cost 2.
This makes the Counterbalance and the Maverick - MU better, while weakening MUs where we are the racing-deck, some combos, and any burn-related deck. (Thats a bad MU für RUG already, but even worse for us)
So here is my current list:
Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
Spells
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Dismember
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
Lands
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
Sideboard
4 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Tormod's Crypt
Any ideas on how to improve? Is anybody testing something similar?
Greetings
Hey! I'm testing basically the same deck. The only difference is that I play one less Ghastly and one Darkblast maindeck. In the flex slot were you play Preordain I play Rushing River which was a staple in early tempo lists and now has been completely dismissed. It's an incredibly powerful spell in tempo decks as most of the times you use it to clear blockers for the alpha strike,but is super flexible and gets temporarily rid of annoying stuff like Moat or Shackles, and you know, with our undercosted beaters ''temporarily'' sometimes means swinging for lethal in a turn. A part from that basically same list here. I have no clue if 3rd Decay is needed. I mean, I play 2 and I love it and I like to see one once per game, but it's 2cc and most of the times you don't really need more than one per game, and most of the times I just wish it was Rushing River.
Out of the board I suggest to try 3x Nausea which will happily win games by itself vs DnT and Goblins, and have a more than decent utility versus Maverick (MoR is a pain in the ass, does cute 2-3x1), without being overcosted such as 3cc sweepers (Nature's Ruin comes to mind). You don't really need specifical hate vs. Maverick but you do need something vs. Goblins. Another idea is to stick a Nought by turn 2-3 and try to race them (playing 3 Noughts in the board).
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
Yup, others told me earlier too, that Noughts are good vs Tribals. I might just do -1 Preordain +1 Fetchland and -3 EE +3 Nought...
How does your Sideboard look?
Greetings
@Einherjer: Did you test a list with Dark Confidant? I'm just curious because it was a staple in old DarkTresh.
Concerning the Board: Golgari Charm seems much superior to Nausea in my opinion :)
Nausea should be replaced by the new Golgari Charm, which is instant and with other (less useful effects), the cost of BG should not be a problem..
Oh yeah! Way better. Didn't know the card.
Dark Confidant: Imho Confidant sucks right now since it forces you to play lots of cc1 discard spells. Is an amazing creature but there is no space for him since you can't cut any of the 12 creatures.
Edit:
3 Surgical
2 Tormod's
2 Needle
3 Seize
2 Flusterstorm
3 Golgari Charm!
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
I'm also testing Dark Thresh for a big champ, and while I hadn't tested against Goblins (it will be the next deck in my gauntlet) and Maverick/DnT yet, I'm not that excited about Golgari Charm. It seems weak against Thalia+Wasteland and not that effective against Goblins. I'll keep it in mind, though.
Played a few games against miricles.
Most went 2-1 to me.
Decay really bones them over most times. Tombstalker was fantastic all night.
I've been thinking of dropping force and stalker to go Bob and Mongoose, but i'm unsure still if thats a great idea?
BUG Thresh put up some good results this weekend on SCG.
Kyle Edwards, 5th place
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=50676
Kaider Sheen, 20th place
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=50708
There are some choices worth discussing:
- Vendilion Clique: Don't get me wrong, I love the card itself, but 3 mana seems a lot for tempo builds. In a 18-19 land list, the mana is already too tight, and between Daze/Wasteland I think the card would be stuck in hand quite often. Thoughts?
- Deathrite Shaman: I tested it this weekend against RUG Delver in sideboarded games (I tested 3 in my SB), and I was surprised how good it was. It breaks stalemates quite easily, and making their Wastelands worse do matter. I'm not sure if I'd run in maindeck, though.
Re: droping FoW+Stalker to fit Bob: it's an idea worth testing if your meta isn't filled with combo. I can't try it here, though, as there are lots of weird things in my meta and I don't want to lose to randomness such as Dragon Stompy
Yeah, this weekend really convinced me to drop Tombstalker for Nimble Mongoose. I realize I'm probably the last person to figure this out. There also seemed to be a lack of discard in the top performing lists, so I think I'll drop my Inquisition of Kozileks. I'm thinking in their place the 5th removal spell, a 3rd Spell Pierce, and 2 Snapcaster Mage. I know Snapcaster Mage is a pretty big mana sink, but the more midrange-ish BUG decks that have also been seeing play like Blake McCraken's 15th place list have been making good use of Snappy. Although it costs 4, giving Abrupt Decay flashback seems awesome.
Brewed this on Friday, goldfished it a bit, then took it to a GPT on Saturday and went 4-2, good enough for 3rd or 4th (didn't check the standings before leaving).
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tombstalker
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Grisly Salvage
4 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
SB: 2 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 3 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
I beat Cheerios (Glimpse/Kobolds), lost to Dredge, beat RUG, beat TinFins (read about it if you don't know!), beat the same Dredge, then lost to Junk because of poopy draws.
Thoughts:
Grisly Salvage: still not entirely sold but I don't feel like I've played the list enough to say for sure. It's very good at cranking out Tombstalkers and digging for threats or helping you make a land drop, but it's also a little awkward to cast at times, and it's not really a threat or an answer on its own.
Abrupt Decay: want the 4th one, will probably cut a Salvage for it.
Deathrite Shaman: Pick these up if you haven't already, this guy is the real deal. I won the RUG and Dredge matchups because of him, and lost to Junk because I was staring down 3 of them.
Thoughts? Suggestions?
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
Played the following list yesterday for my weekly local event:
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Underground Sea
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Baleful Strix
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
3 Thoughtseize
2 Lose Hope
1 Go For the Throat
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard:
1 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
2 Submerge
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Jitte
2 Extirpate
1 Nihil Spellbomb
Made it the night before as a hybrid of The Rock and RUG Delver. Here's a quick report:
Round 1 vs. Burn
Game 1: His Goblin Guides beat me down early on, but I eventually stabilize with a Jitte after being down to 3 life.
Game 2: He hits me for 3 multiple times the first few turns and gets me down to 1 before I'm able to recover.
Notable play was when I was at 1 and I drew a Force I was able to hardcast because of Shaman.
1-0; 2-0
Round 2 vs. Reanimator (Mono Black upgraded PDS)
Game 1: I die horribly after he goes Reanimate Sun Titan > Return Putrid Imp > Pitch Griselbrand > Animate Dead Griselbrand.
Didn't draw a single Shaman.
Game 2: Shaman in opening hand. Kinda hard to lose from there. Ended up with 2 Shamans and Nihil Spellbomb out.
Game 3: My opening hand: 3x Land, 3x Deathrite Shaman, Force of Will. He Cabal Therapies on the play. Thankfully he targetted himself,
though the previous 2 games he Therapied me for Force, hitting each time. I play Shaman on my turn while drawing a Blue card to pitch
to Force. I counter his reanimation spell then proceed to lock the game with my multiple Shamans. Ended up drawing the 4th not too
long after.
2-0; 4-1
Round 3. vs UG Painter/Aggro
This deck isn't what you'd expect. It has Mayor of Avrabrucks, Painters, 1 Grindtsone, Hibernation (main), Elephant Grass & Reap to
name a few.
Game 1: He draws ALL the Mayors and I come up just short of beating him with my Shamans despite getting mana flooded.
Game 2: He's light on mana and I make up for the removal I didn't draw game 1.
Game 3: He has 2 mana for the longest time, and Wasteland makes it even worse. Shamans seal the deal.
3-0; 6-2
Round 4 vs. Combo Elves
We were going to ID, but because of another person being 2-0-1 we played it out.
Game 1: He mulls to 6 and I Force his turn 1 Llanowar. I slowly get there, killing his creatures along the way.
Game 2: I Force his Llanowar again. EE took out his Jitte and an Elvish Visionary at one point but he managed to recover and kill
me with the aggro route. Note: I mentioned wishing I would draw a Deed a couple times, figured it wouldn't hurt even though I
wasn't running it.
Game 3: I live the dream! Turn 1 Delver followed by the blind flip (Force even). Shaman followed after. His Nettle Sentinel's life
was ended Abruptly before being Extirpated. Heritage Druid followed suit shortly after. His Relic of Progenitus made life annoying
for my Shaman, but he eventually used it in response to a Shaman activation on his turn. On my turn I swung with my Aberration
knocking him down to 2. On his turn he casts Glimpse of Nature to attempt to go off. Since he didn't play his Scavenging Ooze
before the Glimpse, he then loses to Shaman. He then redid the turn seeing what would have happened had he played around Shaman, but
it still wouldn't have been enough.
4-0; 8-3
Needless to say I'm quite happy with the deck for the most part. The sideboard was quickly thrown together, but I think I'll keep
most of it aside from the Lilianas since I never boarded those in. I figured I could use them against Control. Tombstalker was
kinda slow, but for now I like it. I may replace them if I find something I like more. 2x Snapcaster was the right amount. I
never really had them when I couldn't use them and they didn't compete with Shaman for use of the graveyard since I usually ate
my opponent's things first. Lose Hope worked just as well as I hoped it would, it provided me with an early removal spell as well
as deck filtering due to the Scry. I think 2 is the right number. Deathrite Shaman was easily the MVP, both in getting me life
when needed, providing graveyard removal and a clock depending on the situation. They may not hit creatures, but the trade off is
well worth it for the versitility. Baleful Strix was good and provided me with both defense and offense. The Amazing keyword on it also helped.
Like others have said, if you don't have Deathrite Shamans already, pick them up as they're severly underrated.
Regarding Tombstalker.
As we can see, with the latest results of SCGs Legacy Open and other tournaments there was little to none stalkers in any BUG aggro/tempo deck. I guess it's good sign of stalkers being to slow and overpriced in tempo deck - especcialy in tempo BUG.
Few pages earlier I was asking hows the creature base in current BUG. Lots of ppl still stick to stalkers while in bigger events black flyer still proves to be out of competition. Is there any reason to include this guy in our deck? He is more expensive than goyf, desynergises with rest of creature base (shaman, ooze, goyf, mongoose) and usually can't be cast when we lack land drops. Even those two black mana symbols seems to be too much in three color tempo. Delver replaces him greatly and 3/2 flyer for U > BB (+yard cost) 5/5 flyer.
I'd rather pull out 3/2 guy or 3/3 shoud mongoose turn earlier than be forced to wait an additional turn (in perfect conditions, since 8 cards in yard turn 2 seems to be pretty rare situation without darkblast/Loam). After all, when that 5/5 attacks, 3/X dude does it for his second time.
Snapy is in similar situation. In BUG tempo you rather cast additional beater than cast a spell from yard with it's cost accelerated by 2.
My thoughts are not related to BUG mid-range or other Team America's versions - just tempo strategy.
Last edited by B4nnar; 11-13-2012 at 02:19 PM.
From what I know, some things are just worth fighting for
- Jim Raynor
I tested Clique in a Grixis Delver build and it was always too expensive. I just don't think Clique works very well with 18-19 lands. If you start running more lands than that you become a crappy tempo control hybrid.
Where are you bringing this in besides RUG and GY decks? It seems like it would be generally good against Wasteland decks, but I haven't done any testing with this.- Deathrite Shaman: I tested it this weekend against RUG Delver in sideboarded games (I tested 3 in my SB), and I was surprised how good it was. It breaks stalemates quite easily, and making their Wastelands worse do matter. I'm not sure if I'd run in maindeck, though.
Edit: Deathrite seems to be the nuts. I saw people (probably incorrectly) Forcing it at my last Legacy weekly. If people are that afraid of a card it has to be pretty beastly. I will be trying out 3 in my SB.
How many aggro BUG lists were at the SCG Open that included Tombstalker?
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
Yes, I think Deathrite is very good. Having played with it and against it, it provides a few very nice benefits in the legacy environment.
1) Mana ramp plus color fixing. Fetch + 1st turn Deathrite = 3 mana turn 2 or turn 1 Deathrite + turn 2 Wasteland = you still have 2 mana turn 2 and you Wasted your opponent's land while emptying their graveyard.
2) Deathrite is a constant threat. The -2 life ability is enough to force an opponent to deal with it when the game goes long. Similar to how we can play out a Goose and force them to deal with it, Deathrite has a similar ability. This ability also helps out with Snapcaster Mage.
3) The +2 life helps against aggro decks and if you are running Sylvan Library or Dark Confidant. It is also very good vs. Reanimator or Dredge.
4) Deathrite's 1/2 body is nice because it doesn't die to Darkblast or other -1/-1 effects and it can successfully block 1 power creatures (Lackey, Heirarch, etc.)
One of the only downsides is that Deathrite is a green creature, so you can't really run Perish out of the sideboard, if you liked to do that sort of thing.
I think the next question is if Deathrite is worth running in the maindeck. I think the answer is pretty clearly no for the more tempo oriented builds (Daze/Stifle based) but I could definitely see an argument for it being good in a more mid-rangeish shell where you drop Delvers and run Lilianas and Jaces. However at that point you might just become a weaker version of straight BUG control so there is that.
I'm also bringing them against grindy decks, such as Junk and BW (yes, they exist in my meta). It gives nice value to their disruption, racing for damage if they stall the board. I brought them against Maverick in my tests but they didn't do enough to justify SBing them. They have few instant/sorceries (and sometimes you don't want to shrink our GY a lot because of geese, which can be awkward), and the gain life is almost irrelevant, as they always bash for millions. I'm yet to test them against Esper, but I suspect they won't do a lot, either.
Last edited by barrozo; 11-13-2012 at 02:58 PM. Reason: Completing the text
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