I don't think there has been a 4th show and tell mained for awhile.Originally Posted by civet five
I've concluded that TheBoozeCube has been trolling this deck for months now. He posts no results, has a Borat Avatar, and insists on the Mono-Green version being superior despite all logic and results to the contrary. See the Development thread for pages and pages of his attention seeking.
In my opinion the only time you would run Tabernacle on the main would be if your meta has copious amounts of Dredge, Affinity, and Storm combo. A 4th Show & Tell is for if there are gads of RUG, with minimal Omnishow. These two metas can overlap, but I find it unlikely, since Rug beats two of the prior three.
I've had a friend try and talk me out of building this deck * down 1 candelabra*. He would say this as he's playing Spiral Tide :p
This deck is a blast and the interactions with itself is pretty nuts.
Hello,
I've been following this thread and the developmental thread for quite some time and finally decided to sleeve it up and bring it to a local 19 player Legacy event last weekend. I have always liked mana ramp decks (I loved Tooth and Nail when it was legal in Standard) and this deck seemed the closest I could get to a controlling deck that builds mana to hardcast a bomb. I was skeptical of the deck's susceptibility to Wasteland before the event, but afterward I was very reassured with a heavy density of Pithing Needles and smart Crop Rotation play. I went 4-1 in Swiss, beating Elves, Lands, RUG and Goblins and losing to Burn, then losing to Aggro Loam in the top 8. I was running Rock Lee's SCG Providence list, but with a basic Forest in place of the Karakas, and the Karakas and a fourth Pithing Needle in the board in place of the Vensers (because I hadn't received them in the mail yet).
The deck was a blast to play though, and I feel there is a lot of room for improvement in my play. There is so much decision making throughout the game; the deck reminds me a bit of Lands with its expansive decision tree, steady land dropping and necessity of playing tightly. Unlike Lands, it has clear win conditions that are attainable fairly quickly, which I think makes this deck better. Thank you Rock Lee and other developers!
I had a couple of questions:
1. How important is having the ability to take infinite turns (either with two Emrakuls or a Karakas to replay Emrakul)? I ask because each game where I was able to hardcast my single Emrakul, I was able to have the game wrapped up anyways the following turn. Since I was paranoid of Wasteland, I really wanted a basic Forest in the maindeck, and Karakas seemed inferior to Bojuka Bog and Glacial Chasm and was put to the side. After making this change, I see that the most recent lists have both a Karakas and Forest, removing a fourth Tropical Island. Do you have any color issues removing one of your U/G sources? I have agonized over the correct land setup and how necessary it is to loop Emrakuls.
2. Has anyone had success running Drop of Honey? I see it in several listed sideboards, but little discussion of results with it. It seems like a good tempo advantage post-board that could force opponents into making poor decisions, if Repeals and Elephant Grass aren't already enough for aggro.
3. Would running a fourth Pithing Needle in the board be worth it? Every matchup where I was sitting opposite Wastelands I was very happy to see a Needle in my opening hand, as it is the most direct, proactive answer to halting Legacy's most prevalent land destruction card. Even when drawing multiples, there can be different cards to name to buy time. I noticed that older lists used to run four Needles in the 75, so the idea doesn't seem too foreign.
I'm looking forward to playing this build again!
It is not necessary, but Karakas opens up several lines of play, such as safely show & tell'ing Eldrazi's, specifically emrakul against karakas-running decks. My major use of Karakas is abusing the bejesus out of Ulamog in obscure, but frequently present late game losing situations. This happens at least two times per major event I go to. Lastly, your only removal is shut down by Gaddock Teeg, so having a maindeck answer is paramount in important. Lots of outlier reasons justify the infinite turns bonus in my mind. I have sofar found zero color issues. You will see that the most recent list runs 4 trops, 3 misties. Always testing, as everyone should be. Also Karakas gives you serious game against Reanimator and Omnishow, who have to go for the combo instead of eldrazis.
Drop of Honey is good if your meta is saturated with large monsterous creatures such as MUD, Aggro Loam or Sea Stompy. Unfortunately all these decks run Chalice @ 1, making Drop of Honey a bit of a tragic card in itself. I have tested it, and have a teammate who prefers to run it, but I often find it insufficient of an answer. Beast Within often is better.2. Has anyone had success running Drop of Honey? I see it in several listed sideboards, but little discussion of results with it. It seems like a good tempo advantage post-board that could force opponents into making poor decisions, if Repeals and Elephant Grass aren't already enough for aggro.
I generally play extremely brazenly against wasteland-oriented decks. I frequently side OUT my pithing needles against these decks. If you are in a heavy-wasteland meta, then run surgical extractions instead. They are good against many combo decks and change the Reanimator matchup from favorable to laughable. My logic, is people hurt their mana advancement by keeping wasteland heavy hands, and side in artifact removal anyhow. That being said, decks with Knight or Vial I keep needle in, but rarely name wasteland.3. Would running a fourth Pithing Needle in the board be worth it? Every matchup where I was sitting opposite Wastelands I was very happy to see a Needle in my opening hand, as it is the most direct, proactive answer to halting Legacy's most prevalent land destruction card. Even when drawing multiples, there can be different cards to name to buy time. I noticed that older lists used to run four Needles in the 75, so the idea doesn't seem too foreign.
Hi guys, a while since I posted here.
Went 4-1 at our local shop with ~25 players winning grindstone-combo, junk, maverick and nic-fit. The lost game went to ANT. I have the list in the primer but missed out on 1 flusterstorm and 2 chalice from board. Need these to beat storm. Might be better to just go mindbreak trap over chalice though, as having that on top with STD feels warm and fuzzy
Next weekend nationals with ~100 players. Went 5-2 last year with monogreen, lets hope this version can get me to top 8
While mindbreak is good against ant, not so hot against TES. As a TES player, I'd rather see someone playing mindbreak over chalice. Chalice stops my chants * which would stop your mindbreak traps*, chalice also stops my rituals, discard spells, ponders, brainstorms and my probes. basically stops the same thing in ANT outside of chants.
So why not run something that shuts down almost half the deck?
Double post. delete plox.
Because Chalice is a turn 2 drop, at earliest (unless you drop it on 0, which may be the best bet for this deck).
Turbo Eldrazi runs 21 1-cc cards and does not run Sol-lands. Decks where Chalice shines run few-to-no 1-drops and run 8 Sol-lands. This enables turn 1 Chalice @ 1.
Additionally, I can't cast Chalice on turn 2 and keep mana up for Flusterstorm.
Mindbreak Trap is also better against Belcher (most of their stuff is 2-cc). MBT is arguably better against High Tide because it recycles off of Time Spiral. MBT also has a surprise factor- unlike Chalice, opponent's can't see it sitting on the board. You can also float MBT with SDT (gets around discard, but not chant). It wouldn't surprise me if most TES decks removed chants vs. Eldrazi. I think that would be the first thing to go.
Last edited by Water_Wizard; 12-02-2012 at 02:30 AM.
Dropping for 0 would be good. Locking mox, LED and petal.
I do agree that trap is better against belcher and time spiral. As for the TES matchup, it'd be iffy. If the standard list was still running the 7 chants like they use to, I'd easily cut a few for other stuff, but now they're running about 3-4 main. Depends on how greedy the TES player wants to play he could side out all, or keep a few. Granted, TES chants, you play crop and get glacial in response. This forces them to go EtW which Turbo Eldrazi should win.
We should get insight from Cook and Rock. I'll try to talk to Cook about how he'd sideboard and report back. I'm sure Rock will post about the matchup soon.
I played this deck locally at a semi-major event with 70~ players. I went with a list identical to the one in the primer except with a different SB:
4 x Flusterstorm
3 x Mindbreak Trap
2 x Elephant Grass
2 x Venser Shaper Savant
1 x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 x Chalice of the Void
My buddies and I decided on the 3 x Chalice of the Void instead of 2 x Beast Within and 1 x Spellskite because we expected a lot of Storm Combo in our meta.
Went 5-1-1 after 7 Rounds, and I ended up 7th, but unfortunately I lost at the quarterfinals due to a horrible play error on my part.
Here's a short recap of my matchups that day. I don't have notes on any of my matches so, this will be short and taken from memory:
Round 1: vs. Nic Fit 2-0
Game 1 I was able to power out Ulamog pretty early, but by then the opponent played a Sigarda, Host of Herons. I answered by playing Emrakul, but I was at a semi-dangerous life level at that point (since he had Sigarda and Thrun in play on his side), so i decided to keep both boys on the defense. He responded by sacrificing an Academy Rector to fetch Faith's Fetters on Emrakul, which gave Sigarda free reign to attack. i was able to stall for time by dropping Glimmerposts, until I found Karakas to bounce Emrakul, and play him again for infinite turns.
Game 2 My opponent sided in some Helm of Obediences hoping to flip an eldrazi. He also played Humility in the hopes it would stop the boys from wreaking havoc. Fortunately, the trigger on the eldrazi is on cast, not an EtB effect (we had to confirm with the judge), so a hard-casted Kozilek enabled me to draw into Ulamog, and destroy the pesky enchantment. A last-ditch effort moat tried to stop the damage, but I had Karakas available to bounce Ulamog and play him for the win
Round 2: vs. UW Miracles 2-1
Game 1 I had the sheer unluck of not drawing any Cloudposts. All my fetch spells were countered, and JTMS' ultimate finished me off.
Game 2 and 3 went smoothly, with me able to power out the boys even through counterspells and Vendillion Cliques.
Round 3: vs. LED Dredge 2-0
Game 1 I cast Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog just when he had a ton of cards in the GY and no threats on board. It was over soon after as he could not recover.
Game 2 I rode on the back of Elephant Grass and got 2 Expedition Maps in play ready to fetch the Bog and Vesuva if needed. My opponent scooped when I cracked one of them end of his turn for a Bog.
Round 4: vs. ANT 0-2
Game 1 went without a hitch for the opponent.
Game 2 was the same, as I kept a hand with no answers in the hopes that Brainstorm and SDT will provide them. They didn't.
Round 5: vs. BG Rock 2-0
Game 1 A hard-casted Emrakul weakened my opponent's board, but he had enough resources left-over and played a Liliana of the Veil next turn, and used her -2 ability to force me to sac Emrakul. Phyrexian Revoker on my SDT forced me to top-deck for answers. I eventually drew into Emrakul again and sealed the deal.
Game 2 I was able to Show and Tell Ulamog into play turn 3. My opponent had no outs and scooped.
Round 6: vs. RUG Delver 1-1
Game 1 My opponent had a very strong board and applied a ton of pressure before I could stall with a Glacial Chasm. I struggled to ramp up, but with no Cloudposts going my way, I couldn't get enough mana to cast the All is Dust in my hand, and he finished me off with Lightning Bolts when I could no longer pay for Chasm during my upkeep.
Game 2 I was able to prevent my opponent from applying pressure, but at the same time he was disrupting me. 2 Primeval Titans came down on my side, and went on the assault for the kill. Unfortunately, time was called during this round, so we were unable to play the 3rd game and were forced to draw the round.
Round 7: vs. UW Miracles 2-0
Game 1 I resolved a Show and Tell for Primeval Titan. He scooped once he realized what the deck was up to as he had no removal in his hand.
Game 2 We went back and forth for a while, and a resolved Candelabra powered out Primeval Titan, which, again, he had no answer for. He scooped soon afterward.
Quarterfinals: vs. ANT 1-2
Game 1 He had a terrible hand, and I was able to play Emrakul off a Primeval Titan.
Game 2 He killed me on turn 2 on the back of a Silence. I only had 1 counter in hand, so I couldn't stop it.
Game 3 Is a long game, basically with me able to answer his first attempt. I had a Chalice for 1 and Chalice for 0, but I could not ramp up and made a crucial error of not casting Mindbreak Trap on his Ad Nauseam, which is the last card in his hand, thinking I would be fine. Hull breach on Chalice-1 allowed him to play Silence next turn and combo me out.
I won a Revised Plateau for my trouble, and a bye for the next major event. All in all, the deck performed beautifully, and I would definitely play it again next time!
Last edited by SBGpinas; 12-02-2012 at 09:33 PM.
I'm looking forward to what you discover from Cook. I imagine if he knew we were running FStorm and MBT, he would leave his Chants and Discard in. However, if he was unfamiliar with the list, Chants would could out (maybe coming back in for g3).
Glacial allows them to Tendrils (it would actually push them away from the EtW plan). Glacial Chasm prevents damage; Tendrils of Agony is loss of life.
I'm having a lot of difficulty winning the Deadguy Ale match-up. Thoughtseize, IoK, Dark Confidant, SFM, Batterskull, Liliana, Vindicate, Wasteland, and Karakas just prove to be too much disruption and too quick of a clock. I'm never able to get my mana developed, and around turn 5-6, I'm dead.
I'm running Rock Lee's list. I made some minor changes to test some new things and to adjust for my meta (heavy aggro/mid-range). These changes were (starting from RL's 25NOV12 list): MAIN: -2 Brainstorm, -1 Tropical Island, +2 Jace, TMS, +1 Misty Rainforest. SIDEBOARD: -2 Beast Within, -1 Spellskite, +1 Venser, +2 Surgical Extraction
I decided to forgo Brainstorm (I know it's the best card in the format, don't remind me) due to the lack of 'traditional' shuffle effects in the deck. A traditional shuffle effect is a fetchland - RL's list runs 3. I know there are Crop Rotations, and Expedition Maps, Primeval Titans, and Eye of Ugins. However, these methods just weren't cutting it. Usually, when you want to Brainstorm, you are in a bad spot. Using Crop Rotation as a shuffle effect requires that you have 2 colored mana, or BS eot and Crop Rotate on your upkeep. E. Map requires an additional 2 mana. I found the times that I needed to Brainstorm, the shuffle effects were too mana intensive, so I was basically using Brainstorm to draw a card. I decided on JTMS because he is a permanent out, he has some synergy with bouncing dudes or protecting the board, and he can legend-rule other player's Jaces.
The only deck I'm consistently beating is UW - slow clock and they leave our mana-base unmolested. I know this deck takes a great deal of experience to pilot; perhaps I'm just not there yet. I find that I'm always 'stuck in the middle' with my mana base - either not enough colored sources to cast a Primeval Titan or too little mana to cast an Eldrazi. Liliana has been a real beat-stick. When she comes down on turn 2 or 3, it's pretty much GG. Thoughts, suggestions?
Against Aggro, I know the plan -> survive or try to race with an early S&T. Against Control, I know the plan -> Keep hitting your land drops and win through threat density. Against Mid-Range, I'm getting 'stuck in the middle' -> Their early disrupting is crippling me and I end up with a semi-developed board, 3-4 cards in hand, and 0 life.
Perhaps it's best to just play it safe and go for protection first. I've also had some trouble vs. BUG Landstill. The Surgicals help in that match-up, but it's just tough when they land man-lands and an early Standstill. It almost made me want to play Wasteland, even as a sideboard slot. I guess I can Vesuva their manlands and block and just keep making my land drops. But Wasteland with Life from the Loam breaks this deck's back.
Last edited by Water_Wizard; 12-02-2012 at 09:27 PM.
Nice report and congratulations to my team mate. We'll be ready on the 80k Legacy tournament :) Ant is a bitch to play against, you have to know and practice beating it even with 12 sideboard cards lol It sucks that they miscomputed for our team prize and we have to return the cards. Booo!
Congrats! nice to see turbo eldrazi making top 8 here!
@blindspotxxx
what do you mean wrong calculation? We were the team with 41 points, And your team had 43 right? so who won? :D
To force or not to force? That is the question.
Congrats! A Revised Plateau is better than nothing!
How many Wastelands did you face? How many Liliana's? How much dedicated land destruction?
It looks like 4 Wastelands vs. RUG (draw) and possible Wastelands vs. BG Rock and/or UW Miracles (although Caleb's BG Rock and UW can run less than the full playset of Wastelands).
There was a team with 44 apparently... I was informed by our Judge... They didn't know about it until an hour after Top 8 started, so I dunno if the winning team even knows. Anyway, it's not a big deal to return the prize it's still all on-hand anyway.
Only the RUG Delver had Wastelands.
The Rock was the only matchup with LotV.
Nic Fit was using Vindicate + Eternal Witness to slow down my lands whenever he can, but i shut off Recurring Nightmare, so that put an end to it after a few turns.
Good catch, writing posts at 6 am in the morning isn't the best idea. Go working nights.
No brainstorm is what is killing you against Deadguy ale. you beat Deadguy by making your turn 3-4 significantly better than theirs. They lose to Primeval titan hitting play, but I can respect them having a dangerous threat/clock in Confidant chugging along. I've actually been testing Pongify, as crazy as it sounds exactly for this reason. Crazy testing aside though, All is Dust wipes them out, as does titan. You play for turn 3-4, and brainstorm hides your threats until then.
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