Decided to take a stab at this Junk thing..that sounded painful actually
Creatures:
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Scavenging Ooze
Instants/Sorceries:
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
Artifacts:
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Top:
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Lands:
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
3 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
Don't really think there is anything too out of the ordinary
Originally Posted by iatee
So I guess theres a divide between using sfm and gsz in this deck. Personally, I don't like gsz as much since it grabs all of your creatures for 1 extra mana and doesn't provide true card advantage. However, another issue is that almost all of the creatures in rock depend on the graveyard to some extent. Knight, goyf, and shaman all need the yard to do their work. This means that all of them get shut down by rest in peace--I realize there are 6-7 outs after RIP lands, but even then, its a bit of a reset button and it'll take a couple of turns to refill the yard. Gsz doesn't solve that problem at all, but sfm helps alleviate it by using graveyard independent cards (equipment) that will turn your stuff big and scary. Has this been an issue for anybody so far?
<Just a quick thanks for the in-depth answers about shaman>
(Maybe there is an ongoing conversation you're referring to, but I'm answering this one in a vacuum.)
GSZ isn't intended to be card advantage. I think you are confusing the purpose of Junk/Rock. It has always been, and will always be, fundamentally an aggro deck. My experience with The Rock is that it isn't concerned as much about card advantage as it is with threat density, efficiency of answer spells, and ways of outclassing other decks with tempo advantage (either advancing your own or stifling your opponent.) I liken GSZ to Survival, when it was a toolbox enabler to aggro decks before the Vengevine absurdity that took place. It found the right threat to work against opponents and relied on the graveyard. Both enablers need(ed) the graveyard for peak efficiency, but neither auto-loses to graveyard hate.
That's the beauty of Knight of the Reliquary and Deathrite Shaman. Knight can re-load the graveyard once RiP is dealt with and Shaman doesn't need your graveyard at all for most of the game. Once again, he does fine once RiP is dealt with.
This leads to another point about graveyard hate: Junk/Rock aren't the only ones utilizing the graveyard. There are so many strategies using the graveyard right now (Snapcaster Mage, Past in Flames, Knight of the Reliquary.) I find it odd that a deck that uses white (the first example I can think of is Maverick) would use a card that also hoses their own threats (Knight, Goyf.) With graveyard use rampant, the two cards in question (Knight and Shaman) aren't as risky as they seem.
Just some thoughts...could be totally wrong, it's happened before.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Well, I understand the usefulness of gsz isn't meant for card advantage, but rather a draw smoother of sorts (kind of like brainstorm). It gives you what you need, when you need it. I understand that, but most of the decks running it are simply running them to be extra kotr's. The only tool-box like creature most decks run nowadays are oozes. I personally haven't tested gsz in a rock shell in a couple of months (before shaman was printed)--perhaps shaman makes the mana cost more bearable, but I've personally felt gsz was a bit too mana intensive at times in this deck.
As for the graveyard hate: the fact that almost every deck in the format uses the graveyard to some extent means that RIP is just that much more attractive as an answer. I'm personally running it in the board of UW miracles (siding out the 2 snapcasters; and thus having no gy usage) and every time I've resolved it vs rock/junk, its put them behind about 3-4 turns. This is even if they happen to destroy it that turn. Goyfs need to regrow and it tends to be slower since most of the discard has already been used by the time RIP hits (mid-game most of the time); kotr can regrow, but you start to run into that region where you may not have anything left to cycle into (if you happened to use her a couple of times before hand); and dr shaman basically becomes a 1/2 that might ping 1-2 times if you're lucky (I don't understand what you mean by shaman doesn't need the graveyard--literally every one of its abilities requires you to exile something). This is all assuming that you have the answer to RIP. If you don't then, 0/1 goyfs, 2/2 kotr, and 1/2's dont seem super impressive as a clock.
I'll agree with the fact you need to answer RIP very soon after it lands, yes. However, only one deck is playing many copies, and Miracles sometimes plays one.
I will agree with the fact that Equipment allows you to leave RIP on board and still have relevant attackers. I think if RIP is a huge deal in your meta, then you should pack more Abrupt Decay (max them out) and running SFM isn't a bad idea. Even 2 SFM and 1 Equipment is better than nothing, in that case.
GSZ and SFM are both good cards, but I think you're right in the fact that there is some competition for slots with the two. My version of the deck is more based on GSZ - I'm running silver bullet creatures because I'm running GSZ. If I wasn't running GSZ, all those choices become not the greatest. GSZ will give you redundancy with the creature you're already running, but SFM will give you the Equipment edge. I'll just tell you that in the mirror, GSZ wins this fight, but in some matchups, you want GSZ, whereas others, like Tribal, you'll want SFM. It's really up to you. SFM seems to be a bit more of an aggro plan, whereas GSZ seems to belong in the grindy versions, such as mine. You could run both, but what do you cut? How many do you run of each? Etc.
I think, meta depending, you could run 2 GSZ in the main, and your board could be:
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 SFM
1 Batterskull/whatever
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Deed
1 Open
So you could bring it in when you really wanted it, or just leave it out entirely.
-Matt
Don't forget that GSZ can also get dryad arbor. Accelerating your plays can be pretty huge too, in my experience. Even if it just accelerates via Dryad arbor, gets GY hate via Ooze (or Shaman), get Gaddock Teeg out of the board, and is an extra copy of Knight/Goyf, that seems like plenty of utility to me for one extra G.
GSZ also plays a lot better with Bob (Flip Batterskull, ouch!).
In the GSZ lists, I think I'd really want to have at least 1x Pridemage right now though due to the prevalence of CB and how badly RIP wrecks Goyf / Knight.
If you think you're getting a GSZ off for a Qasali, you may be mistaken. As the Miracles player, I know to counter that move ALL DAY LONG. Obviously if you can get it, great. However, I haven't found Qasali to be pulling its weight. I'd just rather load up on moar Abrupt Decays.
-Matt
Great post, because I think it 'begs the question': what are our GSZ targets by frequency?
Mine go, roughly, like this:
1) Deathrite Shaman
2) Dryad Arbor
3) Tarmogoyf
4) Eternal Witness
5) Qasali Pridemage
6) Knight of the Reliquary
7) Kitchen Finks
You may think it looks odd to see Witness being fetched more often than Knight...that's because I'm playing a full set of knights and see one in most games, allowing GSZ to do other work for me. Witness is great in a grinding situation, and sometimes Kitchen Finks gives you a great pad to your life total in order to get to your end-game. (Note: I use Volrath's Stronghold, so Witness/Finks are absurdly good in the late game. It's the primary reason I'm keeping Pridemage in the maindeck as well, I see a decent amount of Affinity, making a recurring Pridemage fairly decent. Countering GSZ is a real problem, as stated, but it isn't as bad as Terminus or Swords, those deny the graveyard shenanigans.)
Concerning the 1-extra mana for GSZ, making it seem slow: most folks are playing a full set of Shaman. It has been a long time since there was a 4-shot of Birds-type of acceleration in Rock. It's good, really good. Three drops hit on turn 2 (Liliana, Deed, Pulse, Vindicate, Knight, GSZ = 2) making the seemingly slower tempo not really that slow. That's why Shaman is a must kill/counter in the early game, and yet he doesn't suck ass like Birds in the late game.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I'm having an issue keeping Dark Confidant on the field, do you guys typically see him lasting long enough to really take advantage of him?
Also, wondering how quickly you seek out Maze of Ith? Because of the abuse we can do with it I'm tempted to grab it pretty early but I really fear losing it to Wasteland. Then again that might be better than losing a dual land.
GSZ- Lowers average casting cost for Bob.
Finds acceleration for t1.
Finds grave hate.
Finds land destruction.
Finds maze as pseudo removal.
Finds artifact/enchantment destruction.
Finds Teeg for anti combo/walkers
Finds finishers.
Increases threat density due to shuffle effect.
Can be a sorcery in yard when countered which helps tarmogoyf.
Has a flexible casting cost which dodges counter-top and spell snare.
That's the list of good things it does. I still only run 2, but it is pretty nice.
As to Bob eating removal: Who cares. If they use a removal on Bob they won't have it for KOTR. They remove him asap because he is powerful, it's a testament to his ability.
It has the ability to shuffle your top three while you have SDT out as well!
Why doesn't anyone board in EP in the board. Its good against maverick, goblins, merfolk, belcher
Because you have other cards that are better as they're more broad. Plague is that best at what its doing, however, the question remains if you're seeing those matchups or not.
-Matt
Anyone tried Funeral Charm? I know the discard is their choice but instant speed, creature manipulation and possible endgame helper?? Seems like a great choice so what am I missing?
Because Thoughtseize is better. You'll probably mainly want it for mucking a card, but it's their choice, so it's not THAT good. Swampwalk is nearly irrelevant, and the +2/-1 is only good every once in a while. It's doing different things, but not well. I used to play that card back in B/W ages ago, but it just doesn't cut the mustard.
-Matt
I agree. I think the biggest weakness of DGA is not having scary threats, and Knight is a fat threat that does a billion things that happen to go very well with the disruption plan.
I've been running a Souls-therapy package for some time now and I've been very happy with them. Then again, my meta is relatively predictable so I don't brick too much with Therapy. With Knight in the deck, Gavony Township is a powerful combat trick and a fast clock with souls.Another thing: a friend suggested me to throw in some (2-3) lingering souls for some grindy matches and to allow cabal therapy shenanigans. I'll try it out and as soon as I get results I'll tell you
I'm not sure how "the rock" it is, but this is what I run:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Gavony Township
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Dark Confidant
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Path to Exile
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
My meta has a lot of aggro, tribal, Affinity, and no control/graveyard decks. That's why the main has 1 PTE, 2 Pridemage, 2 Jitte, 2 Stoneforge and no planeswalkers.
Went X-2 at SCG Baltimore. You won't find my list on the SCG page because after splitting with Edgar Flores in the last round, I crushed him but gave him the win cause I didn't really care and he wanted his name up their. Oh well.
I lost round one to BUG Delver because he drew action and I drew many lands, many many many many lands, and they wish death upon me. I then went 7-1 crawling back only to lose to RUG Delver in round four because I didn't put him on RUG and game one I walked into stifle with a land light hand and he had all the wastelands, and in game two I mulliganed to six, kept another land light hand, and proceeded to get demolished again. Though I played twenty three lands on the day, I felt like I had none of the lands ever. In fact, the only game in the entire tournament where I flooded was against BUG.
Sad day.
I beat Bant in three (Game one and two, I mulled and had Bog in my opener. Game two, I naturally drew the second bog on my first draw step. Sick life.) I beat UW twice, one of which was Edgar in the last round. I beat a RUG player once. I beat goblins because 2x E. plague is a thing. I beat Show and Tell because he went off turn one and I had this cute card in my hand called Karakas. I also beat Scapeshift because Garruk overruns real well past Veteran Explorer blockers.
As for the list... This is what I ran.
4 Goyf
4 Deathrite
4 Bob
4 Knight
3 Lilly
2 Inquisition
4 Thoughtseise
4 Swords
3 Decay
1 Garruk
3 Tops
1 Diamond
4 Verdant
3 Flats
1 Heath
2 Scrub
2 Bayou
1 Savanah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Bog
1 Karakas
1 Mase
1 Canopy
4 Waste
SB:
1 Golgari Charm
1 Darkblast
2 E. Plague
2 Choke
2 Pridemage
2 Thalia
2 Teeg
1 Cannonist
1 Duress
1 Bog
Making these changes:
MD:
-1 Bog, +1 Flats
-1 Liliana, +1 Vindicate
SB:
-1 Darkblast, +1 Decay
Choke was also miserable for me on the day, but I already crush stoneblade and I didn't play against Miracles, so I'm slightly biased. Against RUG, I was always behind and never felt like I could make the play because their counters are basically free anyway. Against BUG, they play either basics, or bayous, and abrupt decay.
Told you Garruk was amazing.
Your Mox Diamond should be a Sylvan Library. Choke is also pretty darn miserable right now, I agree.
Congrats on the finish, champ!
-Matt
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