I agree that Delver is important and can be a viable choice for this deck, but in a lot of ways doesn't Shaman facilitate that aforementioned package better?Originally Posted by nitewolf9
-On the play, you can still cast a 2-drop even if you Daze'd their t1 play OR still Wasteland them on your second turn if you played a turn 1 Shaman... the two-drops being Tarmogoyf and Hymn
I guess it comes down to your personal playstyle.
Assuming you won the die-roll and your hand is the following (which is pretty much a god-hand btw..):
Delver
Shaman
Ponder
Verdant Catacombs
Underground Sea
Wasteland
Daze
What is your turn 1 play? I personally would play Deathrite unless I knew my opponent was on combo. I thus have the most options available to me on the second turn. Or at least if they expend removal on Shaman, I'll still have a more aggressive follow-up threat that I can probably set up to flip with Ponder. With Delver as your turn 1 play, you're just hoping that you get that blind flip.
Last edited by wcm8; 12-07-2012 at 11:28 AM.
I'd definitely go for Delver, especially against an unknown opponent, thus maximizing the number of turns where I got a Delver and an "active" Daze to protect it. If Delver doesn't flip on turn2, I'll go ahead and set it up with Ponder, then Wasteland them. If it flips naturally, I'll use Ponder to digg for more Forces/Spell Pierces/Dazes or - depending on my opponents deck Wastelands - then Wasteland them with the one I already got. If I cant Wasteland them because they played a Fetchland and find a Spell Pierce in Ponder, I'll grab that and play a Fetchland of my own. For me, the earliest Shaman comes down is turn3, unless I fail miserably on Ponder.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
Does anyone feel that it is an issue to blind flip or flip Delver?
I'm not advocating cutting Delver (because I don't want to hear all the crap that would come along with it), but I replaced Delver with Nimble Mongoose. I discussed this on the last page and I don't want to bring it up again. The only reason I mention it is because I cut Delver because I was having trouble with flipping it. (It was basically a 1/1).
BUG plays differently than RUG because you have way more 2-cc. Typically BUG lists have 20 lands, 14 creatures, an enchantment, and 25 spells. RUG has 18 lands, 12 creatures, and 30 spells (or 29 spells and 1 enchantment). The spell-differential (25 v. 30) alone isn't a big deal. However, the way the decks play out, combined with the lower sorcery/instant count, does become a big deal. BUG has 9 'free' spells, 15 1-cc spells, and 16 2-cc spells. Compare with RUG that has 8 'free' spells, 30 1-cc spells, and 4 2-cc spells (or 5 if you run Sylvan Library).
On turn 2, I find that I am wanting to cast Hymn or Abrupt Decay or Goyf, so I am faced with a difficult decision between cantripping to set up a Delver flip or launching another threat. Also, with BUG, with cards like Abrupt Decay, feels more reactive than RUG. With RUG, more often, it felt 'right' to cantrip aggressively. With BUG, I'm finding that I like to play my cantrips more conservatively, so that I have the option of going for discard, removal, or a counterspell in the mid-game.
I find that I am cantripping a lot less on turn 2 with BUG, thus my ability to set up a Delver flip is greatly diminished.
@catmint - maybe I need to test more, but I haven't had an issue running both Deathrite and Nimble Mongoose. Obviously RiP cripples you, but I'm able to remove lands and cards from my opponent's graveyard and usually by the time I am grabbing instants and sorceries with Deathrite, there are enough cards in the graveyards to maintain Threshold. I'm also running Dark Confidant and Liliana, so perhaps this helps fuel the graveyards. (And everyone, I don't want to hear that because I am running two Liliana that I am no longer Aggro or Tempo. Running two Liliana may remove the deck from pure tempo, but it certainly isn't mid-range.)
EDIT: Just to summarize, reasons why I find it may be hard to flip Delver in BUG than RUG:
1. Lower instant and sorcery count - 25 in BUG vs. 29-30 in RUG
2. More 2-drops - 16 in BUG vs. 4-5 in RUG (Tombstalker isn't a conventional 2-drop (at least not on turn 2), so perhaps that card can be discounted)
3. More reactive deck - Better to play cantrips more conservatively in BUG to enable you to dig for diverse answers
Last edited by Water_Wizard; 12-07-2012 at 02:38 AM.
I played Dan's list at a local tonight and I found the deck to be pretty smooth. I still got crushed by Burn but that was to be expected, otherwise, had solid wins over Punishing Maverick, BUG Midrange, and Junk. Never got to play against Miracles, but I imagine that matchup is pretty brutal. Here are some thoughts, and take into account that this is the first run with the deck, so I'm just figuring out things for myself. It's also just 4 rounds of play, really.
- I didn't really like Delver in the deck, as it looks like it's already being discussed here. I felt like it underperformed and I wanted to cast Deathrite Shaman on turn 1 almost every time, and had a couple of situations where I cast Deathrite over it. I'm going to type a longer paragraph below about it.
- Deathrite Shaman is absurd. 4 of this card, PLEASE?
- Reaching Tombstalker "threshold" was never really a problem. That opinion will likely change with testing against Miracles. The only real graveyard interaction I had to deal with tonight was opposing Deathrite Shaman and a Bojuka Bog from Maverick.
- I would like Krosan Grip out of the board (as Dan has stated already). Batterskull was a pretty big issue, especially when Decay doesn't hit it.
- Clique out of the board felt super good.
- Ooze out of the board had the same issues as it did in RUG; hard to reap its potential unless you had a Deathrite Shaman helping out.
Subbing out Snuff Out for Dismember as well the next time I play it.
Regarding Delver vs. Shaman as the premiere turn 1 play, I rarely get the feeling from an early Delver in this deck that I had when I played RUG (and I played a lot of RUG). It's harder to assume a stable tempo role when your removal spells are 2cc and you are playing a card like Hymn to Tourach. As powerful as it is, the reality of the situation is that discard spells are generally negative tempo which conflicts with your Delver plan. Sure, you can have the Delver/Daze/Hymn hand and draw the nuts each game, but realistically, if you tap out on turn 2 and Delver dies, it feels like such a chore to get yourself back into the aggressor role.
Deathrite Shaman, for me, is very similar to Noble Hierarch in Bant in terms of "tempo". It's designed to accelerate you into doing things a turn earlier, and has great synergy with Daze. But the tempo you gain is based on board position, not damage, like Delver is designed to gain you. The reason Delver was so good in RUG is that you had the reach to combine with it. I'm just not sure if you can match that in this deck. I would rather play a more midrange Daze shell with 4 Deathrite Shaman and maindeck Vendilion Clique.
These are just my opinions, and I obviously welcome the discussion. Perhaps my perspective could be a bit off.
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
Follow me on Twitter: @AllSunsDawn
Absolutely agree - The comparison with Bant Aggro fits very well. The scariest part of it this acceleration/tempo gain was that it could drop pretty diverse threats (Vendilion, Stoneforge, KoR & Jace). Compared to that BUG does not have the supergood white creatures, less acceleration (cause GSZ is not worth it), but more Hand control (which helps a lot vs. combo/control) & Liliana. So the question is what do you want to use your tempo advantage for? I rather snap-back a discard spell or play a vendilion clique followed up with a Liliana/Jace. Of course if you "shred" their hand a 5/5 flyer might ride you to victory as well, but they surely draw more outs to a tombstalker compared to a powerful walker.
Last edited by catmint; 12-07-2012 at 06:50 AM.
Currently playing: Elves
If we get rid of Delver, I think it might be interesting to look at Next Level Threshold. NLT does not play Delver, preferring bigger, albeit slower, threats:
4 Tarmogoyf
2-3 Grim Lavamancer
2-3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Jace
We could play something like:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Tombstalker
2 Jace
The deck becomes more midrange, though...
Cutting delver and going midrange you have plenty of options. Some creatures have good defensively and/or offensively quality and/or provide good utility.
A little overview about the creature options:
Deathrite Shaman Supergood utility, decent offensively, bad defensively, a bit GY dependent
Tarmogoyf Very good offensive- & defensively, best cost/body relation in the format
Delver of Secrets Very good offensively, restrictive deck design in terms of instant/sorcery count; Shines early most.
Nimble Mongoose Good offensively, decent defense & good protection; GY dependent
Scavenging Ooze Good utility, offensive & defensive strength situation dependent & "expensive".
Tombstalker Supergood offensive & good defensive - GY dependent
Vendilion Clique Good offensive, very good utility, decent defense.
Baleful Strix Very good defense & utility; bad offense
Shardless Agent Potential for unfair utility; "swingy"; restrictive deck design
Dark Confidant Potential for unfair utility; a bit "swingy"; decent offense, bad defensively; deck design constraints (cmc, SD.top,...)
Snapcaster Mage Supergood utility; decent offense & defense; a bit GY dependent
Bitterblossom Good utility; “swingy”, slow, mediocre offense & defense
Thrun, the last Troll Good offense, defense & protection; expensive
Eternal Witness Good utility; decent offense; a bit GY dependent & expensive
For fun some fancy Ophidian stuff that does not make it to the list.
Shadowmage Infiltrator
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Neurok Commando
To me:
Deathrite cannot not support Nimble Mongoose or Tombstalker. Mongoose cannot support Tombstalker or the other way round. Since deathrite is MVP, the other two are off the table for me.
If I play a deck supporting powerful planeswalkers (which is a good thing to do if you run acceleration), good defensive creatures are important to protect the walker. That is what makes Tarmogoyf so good. He fulfills aggro & defensive both roles perfectly.
Currently playing: Elves
I have a ton of thoughts regarding Team America so pardon the Menendian-esque ramblings to follow.
Regarding Delver of Secrets
I've outlined my reasonings against this card for BUG earlier in the thread, but really the main reason is that he's too "fair" for this deck, especially now with the alternative options available. In RUG, you have a minimum of 50% chance of blind flipping the dude, and that deck is also playing Spell Pierces and Stifle to potentiate this sort of threat. RUG is also playing Bolts to finish the job the Delver started. TA can certainly be built to play a similar style of tempo, but then you just become like a worse version of its Red cousin. For Team America, Delver will more often be stuck as a Merfolk of the Pearl Trident instead of as a Snapping Drake. We don't really need Delver as much since we are going to tear chunks of our opponent's life total by 5+ points at a time.
My current suggested decklist takes Dan's list with the following changes:
-4 Delver of Secrets
-1 Snuff Out
+1 Deathrite Shaman
+2 Vendilion Clique
+1 Dismember
+1 Liliana of the Veil
Regarding Deathrite Shaman
I had pretty much given up on TA after the banning of Mental Misstep and instead focused on playing RUG for a period of time. Recently, I had begun testing a Four-Color Cascade deck that played 4 Shamans and 4 Abrupt Decays. That deck is still viable and I may still bring it to a tournament, but what I was finding was that these two Golgari cards were the key to winning so many matchups. A turn 1 Shaman pretty much 'floops the pig' against the Legacy format. He's everything you could hope for in a one-drop. Abrupt Decay was also amazing and was giving plenty of decks fits. Once I began to realize that these two cards were really the key to my success with that deck (even moreso than cascading into Ancestral Visions), I went back to the drawing board with Team America to include both of these. Testing proved my assumptions, and I then posted a list on this thread that was only 4-cards off of the list that Signorigni and Hatfield went on to top 8 the SCG Open a week later.
I don't need to keep gushing about this guy, but I do want to say that I want him in every opening hand if possible and that's why I'm going to play 4. I also would not be surprised to start seeing more and more competitive Legacy decks start including both of these cards, such as in a 4-Color Esper Blade build or Maverick becoming more of a three-color Rock-style deck.
Regarding the 'Spectrum' of Ana (BUG) Decks
Earlier in this thread, I posted a short analysis of how BUG decks lie upon a spectrum of varying strategies, from focused, aggressive tempo, to plodding, inevitable control. Here's a link to that post:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ht=#post607885
Dark Thresh - - - Team America - - - BUG Control - - - Deedstill
I think that Dan's list falls pretty far to the left of this spectrum, and the deck that posters like catmint are advocating are further to the right. I myself am testing a list that is somewhere between TA and BUG Control, as I still feel that cards like Tombstalker, Daze, and Hymn are powerful even without the added pressure of a turn 1 Delver.
The thing to keep in mind is that every deck on the spectrum is viable, and which variation is best is largely going to depend upon your expected metagame and personal playstyle. The fantastic thing about Deathrite Shaman is that it makes it so much easier to shift gears to the right side of the spectrum in your sideboard games if the matchup warrants it.
Regarding the Cycle of BUG's success
It begins again. Dan Signorigni makes it to the finals in a high-profile event, more and more people adopt his list, the format is slow to adapt to the new menace, and BUG decks begin crushing tournaments left and right. Gradually BUG players tweak the list to beat the mirror, including maindeck Jace, perhaps a few more lands, adjust the creature base to include more controlling creatures like Snapcaster Mage and/or Dark Confidant, maybe get 'tech-y' and play sideboard cards like Misdirections or Diverts. Short-sighted Legacy "experts" like Drew Levin write about how Tombstalker is "just" a 5/5 Dragon for 2. Other players see an exploitable weakness to the BUG archetype and play cards like Price of Progress, Blood Moon, Rest in Peace, etc. Merfolk with Standstill, or ultra-slow control decks with near-infinite removal enter the scene to prey upon the deck. BUG then falls out of favor until the cycle repeats itself again.
But this time might be different. With the added power of Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay, it's possible that BUG might never fall out of favor the way it has before. BUG is now poised to be the Tier One Deck, since it can be easily configured to beat almost every archetype. The added versatility of Abrupt Decay and maindeck graveyard hate granted by Deathrite Shaman also make its sideboard even more powerful and adaptable.
Couldn't have said it better myself!
Your last paragraph is correct - BUG now has more tools to combat hate - Deathrite gives us a colored source in the face of cards like Blood Moon and it also gives us a long game out, causing us not to over-extend on board (plus some nice main-deck gy hate). Abrupt is main deck removal - which is awesome. With a few Grips in the board, we can hit most anything in the format (besides Jace, which is why I still like at least one Maelstrom Pulse).
If the format does begin to shift, then I think that we combat it with planeswalkers (and perhaps V. Clique) - Jace, Liliana, and Garruk Relentless. This shifts the build more towards the 'right,' but it creates diverse threats which cannot be answered by 'infinite creature removal.'
@ Mark (and others) - are you having any issues with you U count to support FOW?
Cutting Delver, even if we add 1 V. Clique, still leaves our blue count pretty low (17). I like to run at least 18 with FOW and I prefer 19+. I've thought about running Preordain - cutting Delver lowers our 1 drops - so Preordain, Iok, Thoughtseize, Goose (only Preordain helps our U count).
I was also looking at Spell Snare.
With Delver, you're almost always playing to a blind flip. You just accept the inherent luck behind the card when you put it in your deck because playing the flip lottery is better in the long term than is just not playing the card.
Given your example, I would definitely run out the delver turn 1 personally. Delver is going to kill your opponent much better, and you certainly don't need more options with a hand like that.
What about Rushing River as a 1-2 off? Im considering it, since it quite nice supported by counters and Seizes/IoKs. Also "takes care" of jace and batter, can feed your shaman by saccing land so you can add one of any color instead if needed and its blue for pitching to FoW :) the 2U is also easier with the Shaman indeck.
It's a good idea and it does answer many of the >3cc permanent problems we may run into.
You mention thoughtseize and iok. What is your list?
The SCG lists were running 4 x Hymn and one of them had 2 x Thoughtseize in the 'board, but neither of them were running 1cc discard main.
At the moment im considering running this:
3 TS
4 Goyf
4 Shaman
20 lands
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Hymn
4 Decay
1 Maelstrom pulse
I am considering if I should go up on the Discard spells by adding 2-4 Thoughtseizes or IoK (or a mix) and take advantage of disruption, which in my eyes equals to the burn of RUG - It gives the opponent a hard time getting stabilized in a game until we can do that ourselves. Goes so great with wastes and especially a turn one Shaman. I also think that Hymn is getting better again, and easier to cast because of shaman and the almost certain BB mana you can generate. I know how well 1CMC removal is topping at the moment, but then why not use both?
Not sure on the Stifles, they could be Spell Pierce or even SPell Snares. (I typically have 3 Spell Pierces in the board, so maybe the latter is a valid option? I mean it does take care of RIPs which i really fear (Of course stifles + decays will do the same thing, but still, thats two for one which hands down is not what we want).
The pulse might go out in favor of mentioned Rivers. I can see situations where you would really benefit from removing flying blockers, so you can finish the game with a TS or returned both a Batterskull and Jitte to the owner's hand (which almost always both are present..).
Maybe a new
3 TS
4 Goyf
4 Shaman
20 lands
3 Daze
4 FoW
4 BS
3 Ponder
3 Spell Snare/Pierce (what are your oppinions here?)
3 Thougtseize
3 Hymn
4 Decay
1 Rushing river
1 Sylvan Library
Just want to emphasize the importance of Massacre again. The locals have already started adding Mirran Crusader to their Wx decks.
Splash White for Swords to Plowshares
I'm really liking how BUG is shaping up as of late.
-Matt
LOL, I beat Maverick in the first round of locals on Thursday and they were snap bought as well.
Jace is probably the only out, Sword of Feast and Famine also seems fairly rough. Massacre is probably going to make a comeback, or at least Virtue's Ruin.
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
Follow me on Twitter: @AllSunsDawn
I would focus on the Spell Snare - it answers a lot of threats in the current meta. The secret is never allowing SFM to resolve, not bouncing a Batterskull once it hits the board. I would keep your Daze count at 4 and I would run 4 Hymns with targeted discard in the board.
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Hymn
3 Spell Snare
1 Thoughtseize (with more in board)
0 Rushing River
How has FOW been working out for you? This is the one card that I consider cutting for more threats or disruption. I board mine out most of the time and there isn't much combo running around. I think these slots can be better used for discard and maybe an extra removal spell. What if you ran:
0 FOW
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Hymn
3 Spell Snare
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Rushing River (or Snapcaster Mage)
w/ Pierces or Flusterstorms in the board?
Do we want Massacre, Virtue's Ruin, or Dread of Night?
I'm leaning towards Dread because it does a better job of answering Lingering Soul's tokens, kills Thalia, SFM can't build tokens with Jitte. I don't think anyone brings in enchantment hate vs. BUG (maybe a Vindicate is all we need to watch out for).
Not to mention Massacre kills our Deathrites and Delvers.
I'm gonna probably try a 1/1 split between dread and ruin. A friend of mine who plays stoneblade added crusaders to his list and they are rough. Currently all I have to deal with them is a Jitte out of the board. Dread of Night doesn't really deal with him by itself. Ruin provides us with the effect we need to deal with them without also wiping our own board. Massacre may not be terrible either though, but killing our own guys isn't really what we wanna be doing. That would be more along a BUG control or Team America card I think.
Just curious, what are some sideboarding tips you guys have against maverick? So far the match up seems very dependent upon being on the play. Is there much we can do to swing that in our favor any?
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