57 PLayer Tournament. 1k+ prizes. I got 2nd (refused to split in t4 and t2).
4 BBE
4 Dark Confidant
4 Goyf
4 Deathrite
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Sylvan Library
2 Jitte
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Pulse
2 Treetop Village
2 Twilight Mire
1 G/B/R
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
10 Fetch
1 Taiga
SB:
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Deed
2 REB
1 Choke
2 Dread of night
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Ancient Grudge
Losses (RUG, Burn)
Wins (RUGx2, Esperblade, UW RIP, Goblins, Dredge, Storm)
Brief Comments:
Deck is fine but not great. I cut the p-fires because they make your mana worse and bolt is important against RUG. So I went back to BBE over Zenith to help fight Jace. BBE was terrible in every non UW matchup. RUG matchup is close, and I can't imagine its remotely winnable if you are playing wastelands. Basically wastelands are great against every deck that isn't attacking your mana. But you have worse mana then all the other wastelands decks. Sylvan has a nice synergy with Jitte and Deathrite in theory, but never really got them going in reality. Sylvan did set up some really nice BBE and save life with DC. I think I would start a raging ravine over a BBE or Jitte/Library.
SB was terrible. I was way over prepared for UW variants (which basically felt like a bye). I would cut Grudge, Choke, Garruk for other cards. Deed and Dread night also underperformed but that may have been due to matchups.
My take on jund recently has top8ed a 90players tournament (5-0-2 swiss), losing to maverick in quarters due to some misplays.
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Punishing Fire
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
I'm not quite sure why people are playing Punishing fire and Jitte. The deck is already super freaking good against the fair decks you are using those against, why waste slots for a diminished value?
How aboutOriginally Posted by Tinefol
+2 Scavenging Ooze
-1 BBE
-1 Tarmogoyf
I would agree. May I ask what you thought of my build on the previous page? It is built to fight combo/control.
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Modern:
Legacy:
Vintage: Dredge
EDH: Karn, 8.5 Tails, Talrand, Chainer, Slobad, Seton, Brago, Wrexial, Grenzo, Borborygmos, Sigarda, Obzedat, Jhoira, Edric, Aurelia, Glissa, Zur, Derevi, Uril, Marchesa, Shattergang, Kaalia, Karador, Ruhan, Riku, Mimeoplasm, Horde of Notions
Cube: Pauper Cube
Punishing Fire doesn't really make any sense, Jund is operating in a "I want to curve out perfectly and kill you", it's not looking to grind and it shouldn't be, it's literally all 3 aggressive colors crammed into a deck. It has the most flexible removal, hand disruption, aggressive creatures in the format available to it.
Jitte on the other hand, is just an absolute beating. It can be cascaded into, it doesn't occupy a huge slot in the deck, but finding it is a stomping.
The thing I like most about Jund is that pretty much every spell is a must-counter, every threat is a must-kill. Dropping in Jitte is just another huge hurdle for people to overcome--can't stick a goyf or bob? You can probably stick a shaman and beat them to death with it.
I really don't agree with the manland plan, this wreaks too much of modern where the only reason their run is that people hit 6-7+ lands regularly in the format. More solid, more consistent mana base is the way to go. Jund wants bombs at every casting cost, every card in the deck should make people go "Ugh..." Manlands and punishing fire aren't very intimidating. Wasting a man-land is a huge tempo swing and punishing fire engine is a grindy, grindy engine. You don't want to do anything that would slow you down.
Having less than 4 deathrite shaman is just completely wrong. There isn't a matchup where you don't want it; it is the best card in the deck.
Wastelands are something I no longer want in the deck. You really don't want to lose lands if you can help it, and the mana is very restrictive. Instead, play a manland or two. Whilst coming into play tapped seems bad, it's a good mana sink later on.
As far as jitte, I haven't played it in the deck so I'm not sure how good it is, but It seems good enough.
I basically disagree with almost everything you guys are saying. There are tons of fair decks where Jund doesn't have a huge edge.
1) We need more lands to operate and thus have to play more lands. When you play more lands then your opposing fair opponent, you need to either have lands that do things or 2-for-1s. Otherwise you run out of gas. Bloodbraid Elf is only a two for one if a 3/2 has is good against the opposing deck. He is exceptional against fair blue decks, but against things like goblins or maverick a generic 3/2 is more irrelevant. Jitte makes him better and gives you a trump against fair creature strategies (none of your other cards are this). Man Lands/Waste Lands are another way to mitigate the fact that we play more lands. Since our lands end up doing something. Given our use of Jitte and dependency on colored mana I think Man Lands > wastelands. If you play 23 lands, with 3-4 wastelands and are beating RUG then they are just bad players. If all you care about is combo, then wasteland is obviously better.
P-Fire is an alternative way to beat fair decks if you don't want to rely on Jitte. Its also obv very good against blue decks (but if u play BBE, probably not necessary).
2) "Not looking to grind". This is exactly what we are looking to do. If you want to curve out and kill someone you are not playing the right deck. You are also not playing this deck right. Just because we can have aggressive draws, doesn't mean we pigeonhole ourselves as an aggressive strategies. Liliana and BBE are two of grindiest cards possible. And we are trying to maximize them.
-----------
Jund's Strengths:
a) Best discard deck. If discard is good in the format then this is a good place to play it.
b) Good at fighting fair blue decks.
c) Good at grinding out aggressive tempo decks.
I'd have to wholeheartedly agree there.
BBE is not quite enough against blue decks (though its good!). You're certainly losing some games to JTMS if you don't run Pfires - its not too uncommon, even with BBE. If you do, however, they're never getting there. Same can be told about games against creature decks, like Maverick or Goblins. You really want these Jittes or Pfires. This deck is absolutely about grinding in most matches, except for combo.
I like new decks and a versatile format, but I feel Jund does not really have space in legacy (except aggro loam).
If I look at this deck (which is obviously strong and can put up results) I have to ask myself a couple of questions:
1) Playing Red over Blue?
Bolt, punishing fire, bloodbraind elf versus. potentially Brainstorm, Snapcaster, Clique, FoW, Jace,…
2) If I want to play with cascade and have an edge over fair decks why not play waterfalls (RUGb cascade).?
I feel this has a better combo matchup + is more unfair against fair decks. I rather have Ancestral than punishing fire against blue decks. ;)
Or for “not blue”:
3) Playing Red over White?
Knight of the Reliquary, SFM, Thalia, Swords to plowshares – again I see this cards have more potential than what red offers.
4) Nic Fit
In Nic Fit you can play any third color along BG and if you aim to grind out games and win fair matches there is nothing like it…
I am curious how you justify playing jund over all the listed decks. In my opinion Deathrite & Abrupt decay make GB a lot more attractive and really influence the meta, but not all deathrite decks will become/remain tier decks.
Currently playing: Elves
Comparing Jund to Waterfalls (RUGb Cascade): I think Jund would be a slightly better choice in a known meta that has little or NO combo and more control and aggro. Dark Confidant is really amazing, as is Liliana of the Veil. The decks play a similar style of generating massive card advantage, but I do agree that Blue is generally just better thanks to Brainstorm, Ancestral Visions, Shardless Agent, Vendilion Clique and Force of Will.
I've actually played Waterfalls against Jund online, and the matchup seemed very close and often came down to who had better topdecks and cascades. I was able to pull out a 2-1 victory, but I could see it going either way.
I think Jund is a metagame call, but if you're in a fair meta, Punishing Fire is absolutely gross and is a huge draw for red, even if underappreciated. It's pretty weak against combo, and it's not the best against Counterbalance or Rest in Peace, but Abrupt Decay solves those problems pretty nicely. More importantly, not only does it help against small creatures, but it takes care of opposing planeswalkers with no questions asked.
Once I came into grips with the fact that Deathrite Shaman is a real Legacy card (contrary to my initial expectations), I actually thought it would be pretty cool to build a Jund deck to take advantage of the new Return to Ravnica tools and to combine them with Punishing Fire. I ended up stumbling into this thread, and I'm not surprised at all to see Tinefol (whose deckbuilding skills I respect a lot) already came up with a successful brew.
Do I think red is better than blue or white in a vacuum? Hell no. But if you're going to make a metagame call to go into red, I believe that (and I know this will be controversial) Punishing Fire is the best thing red provides for a midrange strategy.
Jund finished 14th place at Baltimore: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=51272
List seems pretty solid.
Thanks. I got a lot of ideas for the deck from this thread, so that was pretty helpful. Deck was really good and if I didn't make a loose keep or two in round two and if I properly played around Stifle in round seven I think I could have gone pretty deep with it. I didn't really feel outclassed in any matchup and all the cards are pretty strong individually. I played at a reasonably soft local event last night and it held up pretty nicely there as well (4-0, 8-0). I'm trying one less Scavaging Ooze for the miser Sylvan Library to see how that feels in the deck (also the random Twilight Mire I just made the 3rd Bayou since I stopped trying to be "cute" for Treetop+Liliana/Hymn hands).
You're welcome ;)
Thanks Brandon for the initial list. I usually play decks that durdle around in the graveyard for value, but I don't like that place in the metagame right now and was looking for something else to try.
I took Jund to 11th place in SCG Vegas (and saw that someone else placed 12th). I lost the last round playing for top eight since I had the worst X-1 breakers and couldn't draw in, though the deck felt very strong and I made mistakes that cost me some games and at least one of my two match losses.
Quick rundown of my tournament:
Round 1 - Goblins
I definitely should have lost this round, he had nut-draws the first two games but overextended into an on-board deed when he didn't need to and then never got back into the game.
(1-0)
Round 2 - Miracles w/ Helm/RiP
This match-up didn't feel difficult at all. I lost one of the games to a topdeck, but if you hold back an Abrupt Decay it feels like you can't lose since they can't answer everything and so much of what you're doing generates card advantage.
(2-0)
Round 3 - RUG Delver
Game one I won convincingly, while game two I met three Stifles and two Wasteland and died with no lands in play. I punted the third game. I had a 3/3 Ooze with five lands and an Abrupt Decay, Pyroblast and Umezawa's Jitte in hand. My opponent had a 3/4 Tarmogoyf and a nimble Mongoose with 10+ cards in his graveyard, but only one creature between the graveyards. I am on 10 life and he had been keeping a Volcanic open every turn and I am certain he has a Lightning Bolt in hand (he did). I played Jitte, leaving three open. At the end of my turn he submerges my Ooze, which I counter with Pyroblast. What I should have done was attempt to exile the one creature with Ooze, and if he Bolted it in response I could Decay his Tarmogoyf and Exile that to let Ooze survive the bolt and likely secure the game by playing and equipping Jitte the following turn. Instead i lost a couple turns later as i only drew a Deathrite Shaman and some lands, which didn't quite buy me enough time with Jitte to come back.
(2-1)
Round 4 - Junk
I won pretty handily in games one and three. the second game I should have mulliganed. It was a one land hand with a Deathrite Shaman. His discard tore my hand apart, and by the time i drew a second land it was both too late and the first had been Wastelanded away. I don't know if it was just mismatched draws, but it didn't feel very close in the other two games.
(3-1)
Round 5 - Elves Combo
I lost the first game to an Ezuri with a ton of mana on the fourth or fifth turn. The second game I Pernicious Deeded his board away and the third game Surgical Extraction kept him from being able to combo off, we both just drew lands from there and since my creatures on board were bigger than his, I won.
(4-1)
Round 6 - UB w/ Death's Shadow
From the two games I seemed like the match-up was favorable. All the creatures die to Abrupt Decay and all the card advantage eventually wins the game. The second game played out similarly, though I imagine Pernicious Deed is pretty good against a one-drop deck.
(5-1)
Round 7 - UWB Stoneblade
Game three was played under the camera, so you can watch me forget to gain life before the first Bob trigger and then remember before the second trigger before flipping Bloodbraid and going to 1. The match-up felt good. I lost a game to a triple Stoneforge hand and just got out card advantaged. The seems like a corner case though. Aside from Stoneforges most of Jund's plays are more powerful than what they are doing. Pretty much it felt that against any blue deck, once I eventually could get something to stick, it would just keep slowly pulling me ahead until I won.
(6-1)
Round 8 - Elves Combo
This was under the camera. In the second game I had plenty of outs, but got plinked to death by a small squadron of elves (I'll probably re-watch that game to evaluate what I might have done differently).
Game three I made a few errors that likely cost me the game (I also had plenty of outs to just win, and never saw any of them). First, which I didn't realize until later in the game due to inexperience with the deck, I should have been removing my own cards with Deathrite Shaman before removing his cards. By keeping his cards around I could have potentially been playing to a couple more outs in Surgical Extraction and Extirpate. Had I drawn either it was possible I could have kept him from combo-ing off. It never came up, but it was something that occurred to me after the match.
The other mistake I made I just simply missed a line of play that would have given me another chance at finding an out (long tournaments mentally fatigue me). on my last turn after bob revealed Pyroclasm, I looked at the top three cards with library and saw a Bloodbraid Elf and two lands, I took the elf and put the other two back as I had a fetchland in hand. I don't recall what I played from my hand that turn, it was an extra blocker/attacker, but I should have played the elf as cascading into any number of things would have likely won me the game. (My reasoning at the time was that Bloodbraid wouldn't help me on the board because of Absolute Law it could never block and would be a bad attacker) However, cascading into one of: 2 Pernicious Deed, 3 Abrupt Decay, 1 Maelstrom Pulse would have allowed me to wipe his board (plus Extraction/Extirpate had I played properly). After the game I learned that he had a Zenith in hand that he drew the previous turn, so hitting any discard would have kept him from going off as well, I think I had 7 left. I still might have lost the third game, but I did not give myself the best chance to win.
(6-2)
Overall the deck felt strong throughout the day. Other thoughts on the deck:
Aside from a poor mulligan decision and the second RUG game I never had any real mana issues, 22 lands was fine. The Twilight Mire was actually helpful a couple of times throughout the day. Raging Ravine was okay, but not great. It helped a time or two from being a dual land though I only got to activate it once in a game I would have won without it. Generally when I activate Treetop Village I had extra lands anyway, though the trample was relevant exactly once, because my opponent didn't realize it had trample. Going forward it might just be better as another Fetchland, a second Treetop, or a second Basic Swamp.
The creature mix was good, I'll probably cut the Eternal Witness, as there were times when the double green could have been awkward and it could be replaced by something that's just simply stronger. Ooze was good all day and I can't see myself playing less than two. Bloodbraid Elf was amazing, though I took most/all of them out against combo decks, against everything else they were always a two or more for one. Even if the body isn't very relevant he can help double block to trade with something big and you have enough removal to punch him through a lot of the time anyway.
I like Inquisition over Thoughtsieze for the most part, there were a couple times I wished i could take something costing four or more, but also times when the two life would have made a big difference as well. I'd consider putting a couple Thoughsieze in the board, as most of the decks you want them against the life points don't matter as much.
In the Sideboard I'd remove Garruk Relentless. He didn't do much work. Back to Nature could probably be better served as a Krosan Grip or the fourth Abrupt Decay. I think Grafdigger's Cage would have been better as another Extraction effect, or something that doesn't get completely undone if it's answered. I'd move one of the Deeds to the main in place of the Eternal Witness. It's rarely bad, and can be game-breaking in many match-ups. It also frees up an extra sideboard slot... or just lets you have a third Deed.
Regarding Punishing Fire, I originally had it in the list, but in practice it just wasn't necessary, so I took them out. I agree with Brandon on both Punishing Fire and Jitte, neither are really necessary in this deck. Just because both are awesome doesn't mean they have a place in this deck, there is little that you are gaining by including them. Both get better as the game is going longer, but you should be winning many of those long games against the decks those cards beat up on anyway.
I like your deck list and I will give a try to Jund in legacy. I am currently playing Aggro Loam and loving it.
Has anyone thought about Destructive Flow possibly in board?
semioldguy:
Congrats on your finish! It's awesome that people are doing so well with this deck!
At this point lists in this thread are identical to BGW Rock builds, playing Lightning Bolt over Swords to Plowshares and Bloodbraid Elf over Knight of the Reliquary. Plus Red Elemental Blasts instead of any white hate cards.
Playing Bolt over Swords can possibly have some merit. Bolt has much better synergy with Deathrite Shaman, than swords. Provided your target is in bolt range on top of the obvious lack of life gain the slain creature provides food to your Shaman. Most of all however Shaman makes bolt reach even more valuable - sudden 5 damage to player is nothing to sneeze at. Don't get me wrong, Swords is still a better cards, but I could live with bolt over it, especially since this is supplemented by other strong point removal and discard.
What sounds like a much worse idea for me, however, is playing Elf over KotR. Fetching a Karakas could offset lack of Swords to Plowshares, he will almost never be smaller than elf, not to mention that she is one full mana cheaper and often can be played on turn 2. Now, with more and more people playing maindeck graveyard hate and KotR anty-syngery with Shaman I see one might opt to find a better option here, but elf is a whacky choice and to the best of my knowledge the creature to fill that slot has not yet been printed. I wonder however if Huntmaster of the Fells would not be a better choice here? Sure a 2/2 wolf is not a Tarmagoyf but Huntmaster has a long term value. Than again, haste on Elf adds consistency to the deck goals. I just dislike how often he can fail and it is even worse post-board when you bring in some hate.
Before I get to my point here, I need to add that Red Elemental Blast is a great anti-blue card and adds a way to snipe Jace - something the traditional Rock can have trouble with with only two pulses. I am also surprised that so few people run Slaughter Games. This card can for instance remove Entreat the Angels, giving you a ton of time to kill Miracles (as mentioned above - you can deal with Jace fairly well too) and provided your discard delays combo long enough for you to cast it - this more often than not is a game too, sniping their main (sometimes only) win-con. Note that a big thing about Slaughter Games is the uncounterability, so while it is a huge investment your opponent can't easily stop you from resolving it.
Ok, so why all this rambling? This is to address the question 'why play this over rock'. In current iteration Jund is a more explosive variant of Rock with greater blue-hate. To gain it Jund sacrifices utility of swords and kotr and hopes just to race the opponent with burn and hasted elves in situations where white would fight for board control with mentioned cards. There is still more tuning to be done, but Jund can definitely be a viable alternative to bgw Rock.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
