[Deck] The Rock

[Esper3k]

He's obviously mana intensive but if he lands vs miracles you win. What about elspeth or gideon?

I thought about Elspeth, but the version I'm playing currently already runs Lingering Souls so I didn't want to increase my susceptibility to anti 1/1 tokens stuff.

Gideon doesn't seem as good since he makes all of their creature removal live?

[Claymore]

I haven't tested it, but a promising haymaker against UW Miracles is Luminarch Ascension. Found it in the Deadguy Ale thread and it sounds intriguing enough:

It's incredible against Miracles. They can't Terminus or Swords it away, and it forces them to find an EtA quickly, which means fewer angels. Or they don't find it, and lose to one card.

I haven't used it against anybody else yet. It's obviously good against any deck that doesn't chip away at your life. It could be good against a slow BUG deck, and it would definitely rock against Lands. I would bring it in against combo too, other than Dredge. You can disrupt them, play Luminarch, and hope they can't rebuild in four turns. Not ideal, but it's better than keeping StP or BB in.

The danger you run into would be a random Snapcaster, Clique, or Venser, but those can be dealt with reasonably enough.

Another alternative along these lines would be Sacred Mesa.

[Esper3k]

I haven't tested it, but a promising haymaker against UW Miracles is Luminarch Ascension. Found it in the Deadguy Ale thread and it sounds intriguing enough:



The danger you run into would be a random Snapcaster, Clique, or Venser, but those can be dealt with reasonably enough.

Another alternative along these lines would be Sacred Mesa.

Ascension seems decent and still playable under Teeg. I'll give it a spin tonight and see how it works out.

[Amazing Larry]

Better players than myself will probably come here to answer your questions, but throughout this thread multiple times people advised against running more than two libraries. The reason is, that a second one does absolutely nothing (more aggressive decks, like Maverick, actually often run only a single copy). 2/1 split with top is most likely a much better choice than three libraries.

True, more than one Library does nothing on the board, but running three in my deck almost assures that I will see at least one during the course of the game. While it's true that second and third copies are essentially redundant, they can be useful if your opponent removes your 1st library. Also with library fixing your draws, and many ways to get a shuffle in this deck, you don't have to keep your extra copies if you don't want. Either way, I will test three copies to see if I like it. Hopefully I can get some playing time in this weekend, now that finals are over for me.

[lyracian]

Gotta love how I don't get an email about this until AFTER it's posted.
Enjoy the read all, and tell me what you think.
http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=3385
-Matt

Apart from you calling it Junk I quite enjoyed reading that. Probably did not need the really long list of stuff AD can kill. I am only a couple of cards short of what you have listed so I think it is time for my Maverick deck to turn to the dark side.

You have convinced me to try 'Garruk Relentless' however you said "He’s a single copy in a 61-card deck" yet the deck list given was 60 cards?

i sold my two librarys about 2 months ago, needed the money..... sucks to be a "poor student" when you want to play legacy :D (i do not like the other formats :P)

Not sure how poor you are but do not forget the white bordered 4th/5th Editions are only about $10.

[Kich867]

Apart from you calling it Junk I quite enjoyed reading that. Probably did not need the really long list of stuff AD can kill. I am only a couple of cards short of what you have listed so I think it is time for my Maverick deck to turn to the dark side.

You have convinced me to try 'Garruk Relentless' however you said "He’s a single copy in a 61-card deck" yet the deck list given was 60 cards?

Not sure how poor you are but do not forget the white bordered 4th/5th Editions are only about $10.

I would second the Garruk Relentless vote. I don't think I ever feel quite so dominant in a game as when he's hanging out dropping deathtouch tokens. His ultimate may seem small, but really, it's quite insane. Sometimes 2-3 wolves and a deathrite shaman can swing for ~16-20 damage on their own, even with two creatures in the graveyard you're often pushing a lethal swing through given the sheer board presence Garruk creates. Furthermore, unless your opponent has flying, until they kill Garruk they cannot profitably attack you ever.

Garruk Primal Hunter seems vastly inferior--his ultimate requires another turn to win, he's harder to cast, his card drawing power is potent but I much prefer the virtual card advantage / card selection from Relentless, and quite frankly a 3/3 isn't that intimidating in legacy. A 1/1 deathtouch token is significantly better, it always trades. Relentless has a much larger impact on the board state.

At worst, Relentless is an expensive bolt to a creature, on average he provides an engine for you to repeatedly tutor game-ending threats / stall the board until you find them naturally, and at his best he kills a creature, flips, runs the board and one-shots your opponent.

I don't think I can emphasize enough how insanely useful Garruk Relentless is when he hits the board.

[Esper3k]

Another interesting card that was suggested to me today against UW was Bitterblossom. Anyone have any opinions on it?

[godofallu]

Another interesting card that was suggested to me today against UW was Bitterblossom. Anyone have any opinions on it?

I played it in a more token orientated version and while it does do very well against control you can't expect 1/1's to have any impact without support. As in you need equipment or Intangible Virtue or Sorin or something to make them an actual threat.

With the right support the card is great, but that requires a lot of room and after a ton of testing I have come to realize that the large creatures version is superior. Mainly because it is more resistnet to sideboard hate and a much faster clock versus combo.

[Mr. Safety]

I played it in a more token orientated version and while it does do very well against control you can't expect 1/1's to have any impact without support. As in you need equipment or Intangible Virtue or Sorin or something to make them an actual threat.

With the right support the card is great, but that requires a lot of room and after a ton of testing I have come to realize that the large creatures version is superior. Mainly because it is more resistnet to sideboard hate and a much faster clock versus combo.

I've been playing legacy U/b faeries in legacy for the past couple years, and Bitterblossom doesn't need support to be good. It's one of the best under-appreciated cards out there. I do play 2x Jitte to make them BETTER, along with some of the usual suspects (Spellstutter, Mutavault.) It plays really well with Snapcaster and Jace, too...you can lock opponents up with Bitterblossom while Jace does his thing. Blue is the best support color though, if only for Spellstutter. (Ensnaring Bridge out of the board is intense, especially with 2x maindeck Liliana)

But I digress...

I don't think Bitterblossom is good enough for Rock, not with how slow it is to gain value. If you're stifling tempo with blue elements and using Bitterblossom to get a 1/1 flying counterspell, then it can be incredible. Bitterblossom screams incremental value...and honestly, Bob does that waaaaay better than Bitterblossom. Less pain...but also less gain.

[Mr. Safety]

I would second the Garruk Relentless vote. I don't think I ever feel quite so dominant in a game as when he's hanging out dropping deathtouch tokens. His ultimate may seem small, but really, it's quite insane. Sometimes 2-3 wolves and a deathrite shaman can swing for ~16-20 damage on their own, even with two creatures in the graveyard you're often pushing a lethal swing through given the sheer board presence Garruk creates. Furthermore, unless your opponent has flying, until they kill Garruk they cannot profitably attack you ever.

Garruk Primal Hunter seems vastly inferior--his ultimate requires another turn to win, he's harder to cast, his card drawing power is potent but I much prefer the virtual card advantage / card selection from Relentless, and quite frankly a 3/3 isn't that intimidating in legacy. A 1/1 deathtouch token is significantly better, it always trades. Relentless has a much larger impact on the board state.

At worst, Relentless is an expensive bolt to a creature, on average he provides an engine for you to repeatedly tutor game-ending threats / stall the board until you find them naturally, and at his best he kills a creature, flips, runs the board and one-shots your opponent.

I don't think I can emphasize enough how insanely useful Garruk Relentless is when he hits the board.

I agree with all of this...add to that Garruk Relentless is easier to cast at only 4 mana and only one green.

What makes him so good is his ability to deal with OPPOSING Deathrite Shamans. He pings and flips, dealing with a lot of small and annoying threats in the game (Bob, mana dorks, Deathrites, Vendilion Clique, Snapcaster Mage, sometimes merfolks and goblins.) If you drop Garruk on an empty board, he's sweet too. Churning out 2/2 tokens each turn is really nice...

[sdematt]

Apart from you calling it Junk I quite enjoyed reading that. Probably did not need the really long list of stuff AD can kill. I am only a couple of cards short of what you have listed so I think it is time for my Maverick deck to turn to the dark side.

You have convinced me to try 'Garruk Relentless' however you said "He’s a single copy in a 61-card deck" yet the deck list given was 60 cards?

The decklist on there is missing a Maze of Ith to make it 61, I'll have to edit it.

@ Bombs

Garruk is very good, and I've been toying with Luminarch's Ascension, but I question if it's good enough or if we NEED it, as in, what other matchups matter with this card? I'll have to test it after exams.

Another good card to run as a more control bomb is Linvala. People are really missing the fact that Linvala shuts down opposing Deathrite Shamans AND doesn't get killed by Abrupt Decay, so it would be good in the BUG matches and Maverick.

-Matt

[Claymore]

Since Im relatively new to this specific Rock deck, what are its problem matchups? I imagine Maverick and BUG arent terrible but the larger concern would be the likes of UW Miracles and combo. Anything else to keep an eye out for?

[sdematt]

Since Im relatively new to this specific Rock deck, what are its problem matchups? I imagine Maverick and BUG arent terrible but the larger concern would be the likes of UW Miracles and combo. Anything else to keep an eye out for?

High Tide is not the greatest matchup, OmniTell can be scary if you don't have any hate early in the game (discard, Gaddock Teeg, etc.), Mono Red Burn, etc. Usually less popular combo matchups really suck to play against.

-Matt

[Barbed Blightning]

High Tide is not the greatest matchup, OmniTell can be scary if you don't have any hate early in the game (discard, Gaddock Teeg, etc.), Mono Red Burn, etc. Usually less popular combo matchups really suck to play against.

-Matt

I'd definitely agree that Burn's hard sometimes, esp. game one when you thoughtseize them. However, I think that Junk has game against everything (as per Matt's Primer) so there are no truly atrocious matchups.

[Esper3k]

Yeah the strength of Junk is similar to Esper Stoneblade - you have fairly decent game against everything (at least no matchup feels unwinnable).

Conversely, this also means you have no autowin matchups either.

I'd say our toughest matchups are fast combo and UW Miracles.

[Barbed Blightning]

Anybody considered Thrun, the Last Troll as Miracles hate? The essentially have to Terminus, otherwise he'll just endure through everything--plus we can bounce him with Karakas. He has the bonus of beating up batterskull as well.

I'm going to test out a more library-focused list this weekend at NELC, essentially dropping 3 tops and a vindicate for two libraries and two maelstrom pulse. I'm also dropping chokes in favor of a third teeg/extirpate, or maybe something to hate out combo/the mirror, like ooze. We'll see.

[Dyvith]

Anybody considered Thrun, the Last Troll as Miracles hate? The essentially have to Terminus, otherwise he'll just endure through everything--plus we can bounce him with Karakas. He has the bonus of beating up batterskull as well.

I'm going to test out a more library-focused list this weekend at NELC, essentially dropping 3 tops and a vindicate for two libraries and two maelstrom pulse. I'm also dropping chokes in favor of a third teeg/extirpate, or maybe something to hate out combo/the mirror, like ooze. We'll see.

Take a look at my sideboard on Saturday - you may like it.

[Esper3k]

Anybody considered Thrun, the Last Troll as Miracles hate? The essentially have to Terminus, otherwise he'll just endure through everything--plus we can bounce him with Karakas. He has the bonus of beating up batterskull as well.

I'm going to test out a more library-focused list this weekend at NELC, essentially dropping 3 tops and a vindicate for two libraries and two maelstrom pulse. I'm also dropping chokes in favor of a third teeg/extirpate, or maybe something to hate out combo/the mirror, like ooze. We'll see.

I considered Thrun as well, but I think one of the biggest problems we have against UW Miracles is Terminus, so he doesn't really help with that particular problem there.

Didn't really like Luminarch Ascension in my testing. Problem was that it's simply just too slow to get going mid-late game. I'm still liking Choke - it's also really good against the greedy Esper Stoneblade lists today that run only islands for their colored mana lands (some lists even cutting Glacial Fortress these days).

[Dyvith]

I think the inclusion of Garruk and cards like Teeg after board make those matchups favorable as is.

[AggroSteve]

Not sure how poor you are but do not forget the white bordered 4th/5th Editions are only about $10.

obviously i did not just sell my librarys alone, i sold cards for over 250 €, and the librarys had a quite good price, and at the time i just thought i would only need top anyway
now i could bite my ass for thinking like that

well for now i will be fine with tops, because library does not like shocklands :P