[Deck] The Rock

[Barbed Blightning]

With nicfit and D&T in the NELC meta, I think I would rather have Elspeth to jump my dudes. Then again, tramples very good...

@Dyvith: could you post your sideboard here? I'm curious now. :P

[Esper3k]

I think the inclusion of Garruk and cards like Teeg after board make those matchups favorable as is.

While Teeg is amazing against Miracles, I don't think he's as good for us as say for Maverick since they have Mother of Runes / Sylvan Safekeeper to keep Teeg safe from StP/PtE.

[Barbed Blightning]

That is why I like extirpate; get rid of the swords, drop teeg, and you basically win. Alternatively somehow extirpate top

[Esper3k]

That is why I like extirpate; get rid of the swords, drop teeg, and you basically win. Alternatively somehow extirpate top

I agree! I play Extirpate as well and when you Extirpate either StP or Terminus, you're just in such a great position.

[sdematt]

While Teeg is amazing against Miracles, I don't think he's as good for us as say for Maverick since they have Mother of Runes / Sylvan Safekeeper to keep Teeg safe from StP/PtE.

This is true, but they're running 4 Swords, 3 Terminus, 2 Supreme Verdict once you're postboard, meaning they only have 4 that can hit Teeg, so they have to save their Swords and such. I can see them starting to board 2 PTE to help out against Teeg, but they can't have it all. They've got to get the correct removal to kill Teeg, then have other removal for our other dudes, which are all 4 hit ponies or less. They may have to waste Paths and Swords not on Teeg. In addition, we're also attacking with discard AND attacking them from the Planeswalker angle. I think all of these combined will definitely put the pressure on, since what do they remove to fit in all the extra cards?

So say they bring in 2 PTE, 2 Supreme Verdict, and a Moat. What are they cutting? In all honesty, probably some counters. Force of Will in this game becomes a liability, and they probably just turn into a deck with removal + win cons. Cool. Most of the Miracles players I've talked to bring out Force knowing we'll bring in more hand disruption, since at that point, there's no point to it. Forcing a Thoughtseize then getting Hymned is pretty brutal.

So, how are we protecting Gaddock Teeg? We're essentially not. Basically, rip apart hand, drop threats, hopefully make it their. Remember you can use Karakas to bounce Gaddock Teeg to your hand in response to removal. This could also help.

-Matt

[Claymore]

As a former Nic Fit player, I'd much rather face Garruk than Elspeth unless you were able to start making deathwolves as a defensive measure, which can fall to Deed anyway. Elspeth makes a pretty quick clock with her jumping ability and can gum up the ground on her way to her indestructible ultimate.

Neither are as intimidating as Liliana.

[Esper3k]

This is true, but they're running 4 Swords, 3 Terminus, 2 Supreme Verdict once you're postboard, meaning they only have 4 that can hit Teeg, so they have to save their Swords and such. I can see them starting to board 2 PTE to help out against Teeg, but they can't have it all.

Whenever I play against UW, they always have it all :(

The ones I play against actually like keeping in some Forces specifically because of haymakers we can throw at them like Teeg / Choke / Planeswalkers, etc.

Don't get me wrong, even though I don't think Teeg is as good for us as it is for Maverick, I still run him because he's too awesome not to play (plus doubling as combo hate is important too).

[Kich867]

obviously i did not just sell my librarys alone, i sold cards for over 250 €, and the librarys had a quite good price, and at the time i just thought i would only need top anyway
now i could bite my ass for thinking like that

well for now i will be fine with tops, because library does not like shocklands :P

Dude story of my life, I've lost hundreds selling cards back to shops only for short term cash that I needed. Never again though, the collection starts now haha.

[Mr. Safety]

Anybody considered Thrun, the Last Troll as Miracles hate? The essentially have to Terminus, otherwise he'll just endure through everything--plus we can bounce him with Karakas. He has the bonus of beating up batterskull as well.

I've tried both a single Garruk Relentless and a single Thrun. Garruk is better, hands down. That's not to say I don't have one in my sideboard occasionlly, but it's rare.

[sdematt]

Thrun is VERY good, however, Terminus just takes him to town.

Elspeth is good, I agree, but the more white/token hate gets played, the worse she looks.

-Matt

[Barbed Blightning]

What about vs. Miracles? I like the jump ability over moat, and it also shores up the WBR NicFit matchup (Rector into Moat). She's also decent vs. goblins and Fish. Any token hate would be also applied to Garruk on the whole.

[sdematt]

The key is white token hate, namely Dread of Night. Jumping over Moat is cool, I'll agree. It's really up to you. I'm not too concerned at the Nicfit matchup, it's not common.

Also, have people given thoughts to 2x Linvala somewhere as a bomb creature? Mucks opposing Deathrites, Knights, Oozes, etc. Seems good in those Deathrite mirrors, doesn't get killed by Abrupt Decay, blocks Delver, etc.

-Matt

[Oiolosse]

The key is white token hate, namely Dread of Night. Jumping over Moat is cool, I'll agree. It's really up to you. I'm not too concerned at the Nicfit matchup, it's not common.

Also, have people given thoughts to 2x Linvala somewhere as a bomb creature? Mucks opposing Deathrites, Knights, Oozes, etc. Seems good in those Deathrite mirrors, doesn't get killed by Abrupt Decay, blocks Delver, etc.

-Matt

Her ability, toughness > 3 and evasion kick ass but it was my understanding that WW was too prohibitive in most builds? I thought that that was one of the main arguments against Elspeth.

[lavafrogg]

The key is white token hate, namely Dread of Night. Jumping over Moat is cool, I'll agree. It's really up to you. I'm not too concerned at the Nicfit matchup, it's not common.

Also, have people given thoughts to 2x Linvala somewhere as a bomb creature? Mucks opposing Deathrites, Knights, Oozes, etc. Seems good in those Deathrite mirrors, doesn't get killed by Abrupt Decay, blocks Delver, etc.

-Matt

For Elspeth: WW is just too hard to get on a regular basis when we can do everything we need to be done with G.

For Linvala: Just does not do enough until the mirror match is a real issue.

[sdematt]

Her ability, toughness > 3 and evasion kick ass but it was my understanding that WW was too prohibitive in most builds? I thought that that was one of the main arguments against Elspeth.

I'm just wondering if her abilities grant her enough of an argument for her inclusion. WW is tough, that's my issue. If she was 2GW, then this wouldn't be a conversation I think.

Also, I'm in the process of teching out the maindeck in preparation for Denver. Some things I'll openly talk about on here, other things I may keep under wraps until after Denver. I don't want to give away my tech you know.

What I do think is going to happen is CFB is going to come with a new deck like they did in Providence. I was already ready for Stoneblade back in the days of 2011, but I think this time they're bringing a 4C monstrosity. To combat this, as well as the revival of Esper Stoneblade packing Lingering Souls, I feel like UW Miracles is going to shift to either UWr with Blood Moon to screw over BUG/4C Garbage, or go to UWb to run Engineered Plague for its weak matchups: both Goblins and Esper Stoneblade, while simultaneously beating Maverick even harder. BUG right now seems to be beating up on RUG, so I'm not terribly worried about that matchup. I think it'll be played, but not to the same extent that we were seeing it before. RUG needs to start running 8 pieces of burn to deal with the amount of Deathrite Shaman to get anywhere, but now Nimble doesn't become a card unless they have Threshold, and they're losing ground to Abrupt Decay.

Maverick has sufficient tech in Linvala and Sylvan Safekeeper coupled with Gaddock Teeg. They need to cut a ton of the garbage they're running and shape up, but I think Maverick has game, especially against stuff like Gobbos.

To keep all this Rock-Paper-Scissoring in mind, I'm thinking of the following changes.

1) Dryad Arbor is the weakest land in the maindeck for sure. I love the card and allows for a ton of little tricks, but I think nonbasic hate may ramp up for Denver. There's a ton of greedy manabases out there that are looking for a good correction. I feel like I want to run another Swamp or Forest just to have some extra game against the mana denial decks, whether they be in the form of Blood Moon or Wasteland or Back to Basics.

2) I want Abrupt Decay #4. I'm not scared of Liliana, but I just want to have another answer to opposing creatures and permanents. Upping it to 8 pieces is high, but not awful. I feel like Inquisition #3 could be the 4th Abrupt Decay, since I don't want to cut GSZ, although GSZ #3 is probably the next weakest card. Garruk isn't getting cut.

3) Having 8 pieces of removal makes us better than any other deck in the format in dealing with opposing Shamans, so we may not even need Linvala.

4) Goblins may rise in popularity due to its speed and how good it is against Miracles. It's probably better against Esper, but I don't know the match well enough.


Suffice to say, the sideboard seems like it should be:

2 Engineered Plague (Humans for Maverick, Merfolk, Goblins, Spirit for Esperblade or Wizard to muck clique/snap)
3 Hymn to Tourach (Miracles, BUG, Combo)
2 Gaddock Teeg (combo, Miracles)
3 Surgical Extraction (Reanimator, Dredge, etc.)
1 Scavenging Ooze (same thing)
2 Pernicious Deed (Elves, Merfolk, Goblins, Dredge, Maverick, Affinity, Enchantress, MUD)
1 Garruk Relentless (Maverick, Miracles, BUG)
1 Virtue's Ruin (Maverick, Death and Taxes)

Virtue's Ruin COULD be Golgari Charm, but I feel like against Maverick especially, as well as Esperblade if needed, Virtue's Ruin is an absolute blow out. This could be something, but I still feel like Ruin is VERY good. It could also be Teeg #3 or Hymn #4, or something else. Thoughts?

I feel like a Maverick list looking to out-tech the meta and slide through into Day 2 probably will look like:

3 Noble Hierarch
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Linvala
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thalia
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Qasali Pridemage
25

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 STP
2 Sylvan
2 Jitte
1 Garruk Relentless
13

23 Lands

1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
4 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Plains

--BOARD--

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
3 Krosan Grip
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Compost

-Matt

[Griselpuff]

Nice post Matt. However, I would say that the majority of people are not going to trying to outtech the CFB team (who knows if they will actually play UBGW Shaman Blade?), so anticipating adjustments to that is to our advantage, but we shouldn't expect many other people to do so. Anyways, I'd definitely love to do some more testing!

[sdematt]

Nice post Matt. However, I would say that the majority of people are not going to trying to outtech the CFB team (who knows if they will actually play UBGW Shaman Blade?), so anticipating adjustments to that is to our advantage, but we shouldn't expect many other people to do so. Anyways, I'd definitely love to do some more testing!

I agree with this, however, I don't want to get screwed by not testing. It seems like the BUG+W deck is BUG with White, meaning less blue to worry about. I think we have a more consistent deck and can take them out. Time will tell.

-Matt

[lyracian]

I feel like a Maverick list looking to out-tech the meta and slide through into Day 2 probably will look like:
-Matt

Looks a good Maverick list. I know I would want one Bujuka Bog. It is fun with Knight and allows you to activate all the abilities of Deathrite. Second Linvala could be a Fauna Shaman for searching or a lone Stoneforge to help get Jitte online.

[lavafrogg]

For GP Denver I would play as few colors as possible, a long tourney you want as little pain from mana issues as possible and a 4 color monster has trouble written all over it. Straight maverick is going to be strong again soon with everyone derping around with abrupt decay and deathrite shaman. Mother of runes still comes down turn one and they can easily slide in Elspeths and Big Garrucks to stomp the Deathrite matchups.

[godofallu]

Isn't the 4 color deck playing a decent amount of basics? More than most Rock lists I think. Plus it was doing well in the coverage today and yesterday. It does seem nice being able to get brainstorm and Jace added to Rock but it does seem like a lot of work trying to get the manabase right. Plus would have to give up on the Hymn/Liliana SB plan.

Linvala does stop DRS but what other creatures does BUG run that it stops? Against Stoneblade she comes too late to effect SFM which is the only card she hits. Against Miracles she doesn't hit anything either. Those 3 matchups is like 1/3 of the metagame so I don't know if she really does much at all, but I have never ran her before and I know there was a time when she was used effectively. I think that was for Maverick mirrors though.

I wouldn't want to be running a ton of white 1 def creatures when Lingering Souls is gaining in popularity. Dread of night might be coming to sideboards soon. But who knows.