Had to leave in Round 2 due to a family emergency, but don't worry, everything's okay.Originally Posted by Crust
-Matt
List looks fine, but I definitely think that you need the thoughtseize and karakas first and foremost. Thoughtseize, unlike IoK or duress ensures you grab what is important in their hand guaranteed. Karakas is important since S&T decks are still very much a thing. Goyf has been debated as of late and while I love him, he's not necessary.
Question: if you're packing lingering souls, why not run cabal therapy? Esp. Alongside thoughtseize, therapy has a very potent reach if you know what your opponent has.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
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I think for his list, cabal therapy can be a good replacement for Duress as opposed to Thoughtseize, especially given Lingering Souls. Later, replace IoK with Thoughtseize.
Everyone here who plays Therapies with Extirpate effects should check the nic fit thread for some sweet anti-brainstorm techniques.
Yeah I'd like to pick up a Karakas and a set of Thoughtseize but the price of Thoughtseize seems to have doubled in the last few months, maybe in the Modern Master's set? Cabal Therapy could be interesting, I only recently started playing Lingering Souls as an alternative to a "2 of" creature choice (was playing Terravores).
Thanks for the feedback.
dballard - Since you're lacking some of the larger bodied creatures, Tracker seems as though it's a sub-par inclusion. I would look into adding something that would be a little more helpful to the matchups you see.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
Yeah that's a fair assessment since I don't see a lot of match ups where I'd bring him in, the sideboard is always a work in progress.
In the "Dark Maverick" lists that play 3-4 GSZ and 4 Deathrite Shaman - Sigarda, Host of Herons? Jund and BUG can't kill once it's in play. With Terminus on the wane it could be a techy GSZ target, if you can get to 6 mana that is.
I've always liked Sigarda. Her only negative was her cost. I think that the "Dark Maverick" versions are able to support her better than the Mox versions (I think I may be the only one still doing this...) as they are running more mana sources. Give her a shot, let us know how she is.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
I've been running this unorthodox Rock(well, I'm not even sure if this can be considered a Rock deck anymore) pile to good results on MODO, 4-0'ing and 3-1'ing a bunch of dailies.
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Dark Confidant
3 Lingering Souls
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Batterskull
2 Sylvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Bitterblossom
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Chrome Mox
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
Sideboard
1 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Choke
3 Engineered Plague
I've ended up almost cutting all green cards entirely, but I think some of them are still great to have. Knight has been underwhelming for me since Deathrite. It's hard to keep it big enough to survive bolts and block Goyfs against other Deathrite decks (mostly Jund). It's also very bad against all the Lillianas being played right now. I cut Goyf because in about half the matchups it doesn't do enough. It has many of the same problems as KotR. This list is tuned to beat Jund and BUG because those decks are a big part of the online meta. Basically my goal has been to make my Lillianas much better than my opponent's, and have their Jaces be bad at the same time. Chrome Mox I have kind of a love-hate relationship with. I added it because sometimes all I needed was the speed to unload my hand in order to win, and it's pretty good in a deck with mono powerful 2 drops that I want to slam on turn 1. The list should probably have some number of Cabal Therapies.
Just to note: Chains of Mephistopheles is great against all these Brainstorm/Jace/Visions decks. Say hello to never Brainstorming again!
-Matt
Quicky on understanding Chains.
Oracle:
Easier - For each draw, except the forced one in your draw step, that player must discard a card from their hand then draw. If a player can't discard a can't discard, They mill a card and don't get to draw.If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in his or her draw step each turn, that player discards a card instead. If the player discards a card this way, he or she draws a card. If the player doesn't discard a card this way, he or she puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
So, if you have 2 Chains in play and Someone casts Brainstorm:
1st card: Discard a card. If you did, Discard a card. If you did, Draw a card. If at any point you failed to discard a card, Mill a card and move on.
2nd card: Discard a card. If you did, Discard a card. If you did, Draw a card. If at any point you failed to discard a card, Mill a card and move on.
3rd card: Discard a card. If you did, Discard a card. If you did, Draw a card. If at any point you failed to discard a card, Mill a card and move on.
To add more chains instances, just keep adding the "Discard a card" portion.
Last edited by damionblackgear; 01-12-2013 at 05:22 PM.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
Does that stop the 'eot, tap Top, miracle' play? Seems especially good if they have no hand due to Liliana. I thought it didn't affect the first card drawn period, but if it only ignores the draw step draw then I think it's going back into my sideboard.
The only draw that isn't effected is the draw for the turn when they change into their draw step.except the first one he or she draws in his or her draw step
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
Correct, Chains triggers when they're drawing and it's not the first card drawn in their draw step.
So, if a Miracles player had no hand and tapped Sensei's Top to draw, they'd instead mill the top card of their Library, then draw the next card down, making it less intuitive to set up an EOT miracle trigger.
Brainstorms and Jace +0 now become: "Discard, Draw, Discard, Draw, Discard, Draw, Put back 2"
Activating Sylvan Library becomes: "Draw first card, Sylvan Triggers, Discard, Draw, Discard, Draw, Pay or put 2 back"
Cards like Dark Confidant are unaffected because they put the cards directly into your hand, and you don't actually draw them.
-Matt
Best May ever. You can not draw from the activated library.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
They don't actually get to draw off of Top (presuming they're popping it on your turn) at all.
Since they can't discard, they just mill and don't draw (per Chains) a card.
Sounds good, thanks for clearing it up. I guess it's also worth pointing out that they'll just do the miracle with their natural draw, but that sets you up for a Maelstrom Pulse during your turn. Seems like Chains is a good way to utilize Liliana to her fullest in decks that have her.
They can also get around Chains by just holding something like a land in their hand to discard to it.
Is there a good list to start building off of without Goyf?
A few unorthodox lists recently have started cutting Goyf and KotR for cards that are better vs a Terminus and Deathrite Shaman meta. Check out kikoo's list on the previous page, but I don't know of any lists that have placed without the goyf.Is there a good list to start building off of without Goyf?
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Just a thought I had...since it is most important to keep Miracles off of double white for Entreat and we already have Wasteland to hit nonbasics (and sometimes KotR to fetch more Wastelands), would it be reasonable to roll with Sinkholes in the sideboard to hit the basic Plains? Or is that far too narrow?
This more or less came up during my last Legacy finals vs Miracles where he was very vocally fetching only Plains to counter the land hate and very vocally fearing the likes of Aven Mindcensor, but only ever had 2 plains out and I believe a lot of Miracles lists only run 2 basic plains anyway.
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