It seems really unlikely to me that you will be able to win with Lab Maniac at instant speed. You're going to have to be casting Lotus Petals and Children of Korlis which gives you enough sorcery speed interactions that your opponent can respond to. If they don't disrupt that, then they aren't really going to disrupt anything that you can't deal with after drawing your deck (i.e. boatloads of discard or whatever).
Because of that, I do think that they are mostly equivalent, but after testing a bit, I do think that Tendrils is still slightly better. Yes, you can tutor for Lab Maniac with Entomb, but you MUST draw your deck to win with him. Why would you even be entombing for him unless you know you can draw everything? Tendrils at least has the added bonus of a potential draw spell if you don't happen to hit a Children of Korlis (which definitely happens).
I've tried a Doomsday sideboard (August of last year I think), but I think it takes up too many slots. Doesn't seem like you want a pass the turn pile given the deck structure, which means that post Doomsday, you need at minimum, UB open and 2 draw spells (usually SDT and Gitaxian Probe) to win with Lab Maniac. That turns into a lot of cards to sideboard in for a slower combo plan that is still extremely vulnerable to discard and graveyard disruption (unearthing Lab Maniac). 4 DD, 4 SDT, 4 Gitaxian Probe, 1 Unearth, 1 Mental Note, 1 Predict.
I suppose you could try the Tendrils version, but there again you really want Gitaxian Probe, SDT, and LED's at a minimum as well as the Ideas Unbound or Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain and ideally at least a Chain of Vapor. Coupled with the copies of Doomsday, you're well over 15 cards at that point.
Emrakul/Shelldock Isle with Amulet or Cloud of Faeries would probably be the most ideal, but again, you're going to want SDT at a minimum. However, this plan is extremely vulnerable to decks running wasteland - and it doesn't seem like you could dodge that enough over the course of a tournament to make it worthwhile.
Sideboards I'm thinking of currently:
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 RIP
4 Helm of Obedience
3 Flusterstorm
(and make sure to leave in your entombs so that you can entomb for Emrakul if a combo piece gets Surgical-ed).
4 Show and Tell
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Massacre Wurm
2 Jin-Gitaxias
2 Cabal Ritual
or something like that. Some greater amount of men that are castable with rituals or SnT targets. Obliterator in particular seems pretty insane.
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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
Hey everyone, I've been away from the game for awhile but I'm glad to be back and see that this thread has continued to develop and evolve!
I'm glad others have tried my idea of Children of Korlis - the card is nuts!
Sadly, the deck seems to suffer from the same problem... postboard interactions. Also, Deathrite Shaman, though he fairly easy to play around, is another maindeck card we have to watch out for.
I REALLY like the Lab Manic kill. Great idea.
As for the Sideboard...
Is something like through the breach, show and tell, sneak attack, + more fatties out of the question? Ideally we would want the hate they bring against us to be useless... Gravehate, spellsnare (does it even see play?), mindbreak traps, flusterstorm. Things like pierce and discard are still a problem.
Or perhaps a more white heavy maindeck list w/ silence + discard with a postboard transition into the helm of obedience, rest in peace, leyline of the void, enlightened tutor option. This option might prove to be better because of less strain on the manabase.
There is also the possibility of slowing the deck down - adding a few lands, moving a single entomb to the sb, and running cunning wish. Wish would be a slow answer to anything - grab a counter, a stifle, a bounce spell, an entomb, a reanimate spell. it would also let us run maindeck intuition more easily.
I think the issue with slowing the deck down is the fact that the deck needs a decent life total to begin going off.
Yeah - you were totally right on Children. That card is insane. Although the combo did totally fail me once when someone cast False Cure in response to sac-ing Children for 21... that was pretty boss. And likely never to happen again. :)
I tried Sneak and Show out of the sideboard when I was splashing red - it actually worked pretty well for the most part. I ran Burning Wishes maindeck at the time, but may not actually be needed. Seems like it wouldn't be a HUGE strain to board in 4 SnT, 4 Sneak Attack, 3 Emrakul, and still have some slots for whatever other answers you need. Seems like you definitely want Mox Diamond in this case though.
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Played in a local tournament with a pretty similar list to what I posted above. The deck felt absolutely insane, and most of my losses were to variance with the deck, an abysmal matchup, and my own mistakes.
Round 1 - Jund
I killed him on the play on turn 1 with Lab Man. He boarded in a couple of cards, so I boarded in 2 ETruths and 2 Needles. He stripped a lot of my hand with Hymn and Liliana, but he never found a Deathrite. I had a man in the yard from earlier and eventually topdecked a Shallow Grave for the Lab Man win (from like 13 life no less).
Round 2 - Vial Zombies
I killed him turn 1 on the draw after seeing maindeck Withered Wretch. Boarded the same in. He disrupted me with Sculler and beat down. Game 3 I went for a turn 1 Emrakul instead of taking his Enlightened Tutor with my Therapy. He killed me from there with Sculler. He dropped to drink though, so gave me the win.
Round 3 - Budget Stoneblade
He had some Forces, but only one Tundra. Game 1 I had a turn 2 kill, but he left up Pierce mana, so I just Therapied him instead. Saw Mana Leak and some junk. A few turns later, he tapped a land to cast Top, which allowed me to EOT Shallow Grave, untap Shallow Grave. Killed with Emrakul. Game 2 he was able to Flusterstorm my Vengeance in response to Rest in Peace and couldn't find Echoing Truth in time. Game 3 he snap-kept, and I mulliganed. Opened up Petal x2, Dark Rit x2, Intuition, Goryo's Vengeance, hope you don't have Force. He didn't, I won.
Round 4 - draw
Top 8 - Dragon stompy
I got smashed by moons and Chalices. Not a whole lot to report. Didn't find turn 1 kills, proceeded to lose.
The match I lost in the swiss was really just me getting hot in the pants to make Emrakul turn 1. If I had played correctly I feel like I would have won. I liked Gitaxian Probe + Cabal Therapy a lot. I'm really still not sure what to sideboard. Force of Will has been truly awful for me. I'm trying out a couple Flusterstorms and Spell Pierces and those have been a bit better. Echoing Truth is still good. I think I might want a couple of Show and Tells against random things like Chalice decks because they can't really beat it, but otherwise I think the deck can fight through the interaction, or just open on the nut and ignore the opponent.
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Do you think that Probe + Therapy is better than Thoughtseize + Therapy? That's the debate I'm having, since Thoughtseize can be used as a combo piece on it's own as well. Is a card taken from their hand worth more than a card drawn from our Library? I can't decide that in this deck yet...
I think unless you are completed transforming to something else (man plan, RIP/Helm, Painter/Stone, etc.) you probably want Show and Tells out of the board. At least in some quantity to get around random hate, like you said. RIP and Leyline are pretty tough to get around unless you draw bounce, and SnT will just eat their lunch if that is all they are relying upon. Still weak to Vendilion Clique and if they next level you and board in Humility or something expecting you to bring in SnT. Although, it seems that Show and Tell is a bit less reliable now than it once was, due to Miracles actually having a decent amount of 3 drops in their deck.
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Went 3-1 at my local shop and ended up in 4th place.
I played 15 lands, 6 creatures, therapy/daze/Thoughtsieze.
SB was bobs, fluster storms, lilianas, bounce
I lost round 1 (2-1) vs combo elves with deathrite shaman. I think I punted this game away in game 3 but it was hard to know when to try to go off. He went on to get 2nd
Second round was against another combo elves player. I played tighter, learned from my mistakes and beat him 2-0. He had deathrite as well.
Round 3 was against belcher. Game 1 he Emptys for 16. I mulled to 5 and still had a turn 1 kill. Lucky I guess.
Second game I just beat down with bob and kept up plenty of counters
Round 4 sneak and show. Game one had an interesting interaction. He show and tells putting in Grisel. I untapped and played shallow grave (Grisel already in yard) he responds and draws 7, I respond and cast another shallow grave. He responds and draws 7. (he's at 3 life now). He whiffs on force (he'd already used 2). Gbrand comes in an legend rules, then the second one comes in hasty for the kill.
In the second game he eventually loses to all the hand disruption and I combo out.
Lab man is a much better kill. Very happy with him. I attracted a decent amount of attention - you know - drawing your entire deck, going to 40-80 life, and winning on turn 1-2 often. It's a very fun deck to play.
On game 1 Probe is more valuable than thoughtseize, because it gives you the right information on going off that turn or not without costing you anything except for two life points. If you see you can't go off you just adapt to the situation or you can Therapy/Daze protect yourself to still go off. The fact that it costs no mana and gives you a card back makes it fully supportive if you can pull it of in the first turn. If they play counter magic you play around it and if they don't you smash their face. Personally id take the probes out game 2/3 because id rather have answers at that point. You know what your up against game 2/3.
As for S&T, i think thats a weak plan due to the low creature count. I'd personally have either Pithing Needle or Echoing Truth in those situations. I've even thought about running Disenchant instead of ET, but ET also gets rid of annoying creatures like Thalia, Ooze or DRS. I prefer ET over Chain of Vapors so i can bounce Chalice @ 1 on or before (eot) the turn i want to go off.
@ Dela
Bob against Belcher? Aside for being a 2 powered beatstick, was it usefull in that matchup? As for Bob, i see him be usefull against hand disruption. But hows your experience with him? And how was Liliana? Her +1 can help us to by binning Griselbrand.
I'm pretty excited about bringing the list to the next tournament i'm gonna play. But i am still working on sone details. Running Silence or Probe main and what to board. 2-3 Pithing Needle, 2-3 Echoing Truth (or Disanchant), 1 Children, Silence 1-4 (if not main), Leylines (those are dead if not in opening hand), Counters like Pierce or Fluster, More discard or Bobs and Liliana. Our Meta is very varied. Aside from a lot of BUG there is a mix if kinda everything. Scapewish, stoneblade, mud, reanimator, elves, storm, dredge, GBW nic fit, BUG fit, Food chain. Just about everything. I think the main concern is fighting counter wars, discard, gravehate, tax and moon/chalice/humility. Aside from that we just have to be faster.
So far i'm thinking about:
1 Children
3 Pithing Needle
3 Echoing Truth
1 Silence
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Pierce
That's a good point about Probe in the main. Maybe i'll try it that way and see how it goes. I have a pretty blue heavy meta locally, so I'm not sure. We'll see I guess. Seems pretty good to board out G2/3 like you said for more specialized answers if you're running an anti-hate board.
I agree on Echoing Truth vs. Chain of Vapor, also. If we were running Sensei's Diving Top, I'd probably run Chain, but I don't see a good reason for it without.
As far as too few SnT targets go - I think you need to either board in more and/or add Lim-Dul's vault to shore that up. I never really had much problem with 4 Griselbrand, 1 Emrakul, 4 Show and Tell, and 2 LDV when I was playing with that. Also, the interaction between Children of Korlis and LDV is pretty awesome.
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I mistyped. I meant to say TES? He had Thoughtsieze, duress, tendrils, and empty. I figured flusterstorm + hand disruption were my best tools against him so I sided in 2 bobs.
I never got to cast liliana but I would have liked to slam her early vs elves and try that out.
I think the probes make sense as well and I too will be trying them out as well as your SB plan minus a change or two.
I'm so excited to play this deck at the SCG open in Atlanta coming up. I've been durdling on cockatrice with it and it feels unbeatable. One G3 I mulliganed to 6 and only drew 2 non-land spells. Unfortunately for my opponent, they were Entomb and Goryo's Vengeance. Of course, that was after mulliganing to 5 and beating him on turn 57 after he ripped my hand to shreds with 3 discard spells game 1.
Here's where I'm at with my list:
// 13 Lands
1 Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Marsh Flats
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
// Creatures
2 Children of Korlis
3 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Hapless Researcher
// Spells
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
3 Daze
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Intuition
// Sideboard
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Pithing Needle
1 Griselbrand
2 Echoing Truth
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Show and Tell
3 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
I feel like the sideboard is a complete pile because the only cards I've boarded in are 2-3 Pithing Needle and 1-3 bounce spells, with the occasional Spell Pierce for value.
I'm very happy with the maindeck, but it's 61 cards. Can you guys find something to cut?
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Man, that's a really tight list... The only thing I could think to cut would be a Probe, but you're already very land light... I suppose since you're running Daze instead of more therapies/thoughtseize, you can't really cut researcher either. Only other thing I could think of would be to cut the 3 Daze for 2 Thoughtseize and 1 Cabal Therapy, and then cut the Hapless Researcher. But I do understand how good Daze can be as well...
I haven't really played this deck much recently, but my thought was running a 4/3 split of Therapy and Thoughtseize to try to maximize protection by making them combo pieces if need be. Don't know if that is right though.
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Cut the basic swamp.
- Magus of the Moon
If you're finding you don't need Careful Study, I think Hapless is the first thing I would cut.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
Nedleeds, I hate you and all your pimp moons.
Thanks for the feedback, guys. It's just looking like it's hard to fit Gitaxian Probe in the list - the numbers are shaved already. .dk, you said that boarding into Hot Carl was ok but underwhelming? I'm thinking about trying that out, but don't want to just repeat past mistakes.
Compared to previous list, thinking about running tomorrow:
-1 Daze, -1 Hapless Researcher, -1 Lab Man, -1 Cabal Therapy, -3 Gitaxian Probe
+1 U Fetch, +1 Griselbrand, +1 Tendrils, +3 Thoughtseize
That takes the main down to 60 cards and should hopefully make it more stable. The change to Tendrils is to make Showing in Griselbrand better postboard against decks with StP, and it doesn't really change much maindeck. The only decks that run Leyline of Sanctity are Show and Tell combo, pretty much, so targeted shouldn't matter much.
The board I'm thinking about is:
4 Show and Tell
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Cabal Ritual
1 Thoughtseize
3 Pithing Needle
2 Echoing Truth
1 Massacre
Theoretically, Intuition fills the role of the second LDV, 4 Cab Rit was never necessary, and all I've found myself boarding in are Needles and/or Echoing Truth if I want to stay on TinFins.
I feel like I want the S&T plan against any white control deck because the combination of Surgical/RiP, Plow, and Karakas are difficult to fight through, and they'll let you go late enough to set up S&T.
I think I want to stay on TinFins against G/B/x because they almost always rely on Needle'able hate and Deathrite is of limited utility against Shallow Grave.
S&T is better against decks with Chalice because your man stays around.
TinFins is probably better against random aggro decks like Goblins? They can kill you real quick, and I lost to a couple of red-based decks in GP Atlanta.
A random aside I was thinking about in the shower - this deck can beat "infinite" life with Tendrils by recycling the deck with Emrakul. The number of times you have to go through your deck is about 2*sqrt(Life / (Spells cast per iteration)) or roughly .5 * sqrt(Life). PM me if you care to see the steps. It would be awesome if this was ever ever ever relevant.
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I'm probably being dumb, but... Hot Carl? What's that? :)
And the infinite Tendrils loop is rad - I was thinking about that the other day as well. Children of Korlis is just insane with the shuffle effect from Emrakul.
That's also a good point about Tendrils post board - so that you have a shot to win without drawing your whole deck.
I think your sideboard plan is pretty reasonable. We're already amazing against slower graveyard hate not named Rest in Peace - so having a Show and Tell plan against the rest seems good. What are you taking out in those situations?
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Oh, yeah, that's what nedleeds first named Chocula before alphastryk and I tried to come up with a, ahem, more apropriate name. I still think about the deck as Hot Carl. I tried to get it on the back of my GP Atlanta shirt, but the lady claimed it was "a disgusting sex act". Poo on her.
I was thinking of taking out the 7 reanimation spells and 4 Entombs and bringing in the 4 Show and Tell, 3 Cabal Ritual, 1 LDV, 1 Thoughtseize, and probably a couple Needles for Karakas. That leaves us with 6 ways to find S&T or Griselbrand, 8 protection spells, and a slew of mana.
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Ahh.... gotcha. I don't think it's a poor plan, per se. It's very reasonable - I'm just not sure I found the right protection around it. Flusterstorms were good - Divert was cute. And I'm not sure I was actually boarding right in some matchups... keep in mind that if you're on SnT and you suspect Surgical, you want your Entombs in too - they counter Surgical by fetching Emrakul. I think that would have saved me a few games, since you just scoop to it otherwise pretty much. Ritualing into hardcast Griselbrand is a thing, but only against the durdliest of durdles.
Sucks you couldn't get what you wanted on your shirt though - thankfully Tin Fins isn't offensive to anyone except those that hate humor so my shirt passed. ;)
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For the record, Tendrils opens you up to Gaddock Teeg mattering, where lab man doesn't. I'm not sure how much of a concern that it.
Generally you are winning before he lands. However, post board, you should have at least 1 or 2 bounce spells to clear him off the table. 1 might even be enough if you're drawing your deck anyway.
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