[Deck] Goblins

[ScatmanX]

Matron and Ringleader are far too important to the deck to cut.

Then why does your list has 0 Matrons?

[Vacrix]

Then why does your list has 0 Matrons?

Lol.. completely missed that. I was just making edits to Humphrey's list. Yeah.. gotta make room for Matrons.

[Sir_tokealot]

Heres my goblin list i've been brewing for the current metagame.

4 vial
4 lackey
3 tarfire
4 gempalm incinerator
3 mogg war marshal
3 goblin warchief
4 goblin matron
4 goblin ringleader

1 skirk prospector
1 tin-street hooligan
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin piledriver
1 Goblin chieftain
1 Goblin sharpshooter
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-gang Commander

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan port
4 cavern of souls
4 mountain
2 taiga
5 of your favorite red fetches


Reasonings for card choices:
tarfire is very good in the current meta and kills all relevant creatures except for tarmogoyf and the few survivors of the maverick deck. flyers are the problematic creatures that we cannot chump block. also it does not get blown out by lightning bolt early game. another reason is think of the bug delver or control magic on the draw. they play turn 1 deathrite shaman and even if you drop a lackey you cannot incinerator it on turn 2, its just not an option. and to be honest even if the lackey does not connect it is still worth it to kill the deathrite shaman, because if you dont the bug decks go freaking bonkers and drop turn 2 liliana / engineered plague into turn 3 jace or god knows what else(pernicious deed). also abrupt decay destroys piledriver which is all over the meta.

incinerator is too amazing to not run 4 of. i dont think ive ever lost a game to a fair deck (non combo) when i drew 2 naturally before being below 10 life

only 3 warchiefs because the 4th is a chieftain 1 of for utility. i play chieftain because he opens up a whole new avenue of turn 3 kills without warchief. he also comboes nicely with krenko.

for a long time i played without skirk prospector because i thought he was bad after damage came off the stack. in my most recent starcity (worcester 2012) i placed 58th (first time money) and it was on the back of this 1/1 in MULTIPLE games. and to be honest he was my fucking mvp of the day. round 1 i beat an affinity player who finished 11th with an accelerated and hasted sharpshooter because of prospector. During round 4 my game 1 against B/W stoneblade went 48 minutes, and around 25 minutes he got batterskull in play. 2 turns later he found jitte and equipped the same turn i got skirk prospector and he held off my opponent to 28 life and stopped every jitte token. eventually i made a big enough army to do a multiple attack alpha strike by leaving enough blockers to not get blown out and sacrificing whatever the jitte equipped creature ever dealt damage to. you should have seen the look on his face when he lost a nearly 50 minute game which he had batterskull carrying jitte and nearly 30 life for 15 minutes, 20+ turns. round 6 i almost shat my pants when i realised he was the 2nd best card i could have to face dredge with. especially with mogg war marshal and sharpshooter. i easily defeated dredge game 1 and 2.

i like tin street hooligan over tuktuk because im more afraid of jitte than batterskull, who gives a shit if they gain like 8-12 life and put you at a comfortable 8-12 life. as long as they arent killing an extra 2 creatures on every combat phase i can still win.

sharpshooter is an absolute house against maverick, elves (lol + tarfire, gempalm, and pyrokinesis gg brah), death and taxes, affinity, merfolk (they cant get into a combat and win, its gg if they dont play removal. just kill kira), dredge (ive killed 15+ zombies before with extra damage to the face and goblins still alive. also shuts off every narcomoeba, ichorid, and putrid imp), also good against lingering souls, dark confidant, vendillion clique, snapcaster, the list goes on.

i believe that 2 siege-gang commander is redundant. obviously when your playing off the topdeck siege-gang is usually better but krenko has some insanely explosive draws all the time and can be used in turn 3 kills. which opens up an entire side of your deck to draw for the turn 3 kill (chieftain and mogg war marshal instead of the traditional piledriver + siege gang + warchief). also Bug decks have an extremely hard time of dealing with krenko without thoughtseizing him. he lives through abrupt decay, and if you play him they need 7 mana on their next turn to pernicious deed him. hes really really good i wouldnt steer you wrong. ive had amazing success with him and it just gives the deck way more utility and eases the mana curve more than running 2 siege-gangs. how often do you rip a 1 off strictly when your top decking with nothing in play???

i will never ever in my entire life run this deck again without 4 cavern of souls.

i strongly suggest playing 4 wasteland AND 4 rishadan port. port is rediculous against combo decks especially show and tell and high tide. if you get ahead in the early game with lackey or vial a single wasteland can be devastating, backed up with port every turn after it can be GG really quick. also if you know the format and understand your opponents strategy to beat you and know the general staples in their deck you can easily mana screw them off of jace, liliana, terminus, moat/humility, wrath of god and especially supreme verdict.

i run 2 taiga for only 1 reason, so the original does not get wastelanded and then i have none to call upon later in the game.

all input is appreciated.

[GoboLord]

/edit:

Isn't Boggard Mob very good in the current meta? It can't be killing by Decay, survives lightning bolts and is bigger than most threats (unless goyf is 5/6). It can even block Batterskull and survive. It also helps rebuild after a a sweeper from U/W miracles. If your opponent doesn't answer it immediately it will win the game for you.

That's exactly the card I stumbled over when I went through my binder yesterday. I also think that Boggart Mob is a good choice atm. However there are 2 concerns that I have:
(1) As I'm perceiving the meta right now we need cards that help us in early game (like, to handle early Delvers/Stoneforge Mystics/Deathrite Shamans) while still be able to make our usual setup in the face of removal spells (Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares and Decay - which unfortunately hit Aether Vial). My guess would be that Boggart Mob might not help us with those problems. Maybe it's indeed a good choice to run more lands and/or Skirk Prospectors.

(2) due to it's manacosts we can't really affort running more than 1 copy (maybe 2) of Boggart Mob. However, the good thing is that with Caverns + Vials + Lackeys alone you will be able to reliably drop him, even without any Badlands (even before Caverns were printed I used to run 1 Wort Boggart Mob in a otherwise mono-R list, which was perfectly good).

Apart from that, I think that Thalia in MD is THE single best choice against the top contenders: Esperblade, BUG COntrol and RUG Thresh.

[ScatmanX]

Apart from that, I think that Thalia in MD is THE single best choice against the top contenders: Esperblade, BUG COntrol and RUG Thresh.

Funny how I just rebuilt Rw goblins yesterday.

[jrw1985]

Outta the DTB forum.

I'm cool with that. Too many E Plagues and not enough Goblins players at big events recently anyway. I seriously haven't seen a single tournament report from GP Denver that has reported on even 1 Goblin match.

[Korvo]

Funny how I just rebuilt Rw goblins yesterday.

Are you done with the Punishing Goblins idea?

[jrw1985]

Speed Goblins
Discuss!

4Legion Loyalist
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Wardriver
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
4 Mogg War Marshal
14 Mountain
3 Wasteland
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Goblin Guide

I've been goldfishing a similar build and have come to the conclusion that this version of goblins is just a Sligh deck, and not a very good one at that. Goblins has a tremendous amount board control that this kind of build doesn't support. Vial + Matron gives you significant control over the board state. Trying to maximize Piledriver + Loyalist makes the deck less interactive, so it becomes much worse in the late game and only Marginally Better in the early game.

[ScatmanX]

Are you done with the Punishing Goblins idea?

Not 100%
I'm having some a lot of time to practice these few days, so am testing a bunch of stuff.

[TheRedBaron]

Outta the DTB forum.

I'm cool with that. Too many E Plagues and not enough Goblins players at big events recently anyway. I seriously haven't seen a single tournament report from GP Denver that has reported on even 1 Goblin match.

I think after Legion Loyalist from Gatecrash comes out and people splash for Disenchant/Thalia. I'm sure goblins will receive more brews/attention. At least for a while... First Striking, Trample Piledrivers that can't be blocked by Germ Tokens seem strong.

I've been goldfishing a similar build and have come to the conclusion that this version of goblins is just a Sligh deck, and not a very good one at that. Goblins has a tremendous amount board control that this kind of build doesn't support. Vial + Matron gives you significant control over the board state. Trying to maximize Piledriver + Loyalist makes the deck less interactive, so it becomes much worse in the late game and only Marginally Better in the early game.

I wouldn't go as far as building Gobbos around Piledriver + loyalist.

I'm more along the lines of a W splash, integrating Loyalist into Vial Denial gobs.

Not 100%
I'm having some a lot of time to practice these few days, so am testing a bunch of stuff.

I'm not sold on this idea yet.

---------------------------

edit

Here is my initial Loyalist build:


3 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Chieftain
2 Siege-gang Commander
3 Legion Loyalist
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
1 Stingscourger
2 Mogg Warmarshal
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Tuk Tuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Æther Vial

2 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
4 Mountain
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls

//SB

4 Disenchant
1 Boar-tusk Liege
3 Thalia
3 Rest in Peace
2 Pyrokenesis
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

[jrw1985]

I think after Legion Loyalist from Gatecrash comes out and people splash for Disenchant/Thalia. I'm sure goblins will receive more brews/attention. At least for a while... First Striking, Trample Piledrivers that can't be blocked by Germ Tokens seem strong.

Peep this, holmes. Loyalist and Thalia both = Soldier. So you actually have a T1 and T2 Cavern on Soldier play when you splash W.

Too bad Loyalist isn't going to be a 4-of... Stupid non-cumulative effects.

[TheRedBaron]

Peep this, holmes. Loyalist and Thalia both = Soldier. So you actually have a T1 and T2 Cavern on Soldier play when you splash W.

Too bad Loyalist isn't going to be a 4-of... Stupid non-cumulative effects.

That's actually cool :D

Check out my list in the post above.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I feel like the "can't be blocked by tokens" was tossed in, just to piss on Batterskull.

[Avatara]

Too bad Loyalist isn't going to be a 4-of... Stupid non-cumulative effects.

That's only a valid argument if you consider that you opponent will never kill your Loyalists.

[Mr. Froggy]

I played a few test games vs UW Miracles, and I felt all games were not completely unwinnable, like a 50/50 match-up. The only times I thought I would lose were when he would Miracle an Entreat the Angels, but other than that, they were all good games. If I had a Loyalist in play, I would've been happy, lol.

[zulander]

How do you beat Zoo?

[ScatmanX]

I played a few test games vs UW Miracles, and I felt all games were not completely unwinnable, like a 50/50 match-up. The only times I thought I would lose were when he would Miracle an Entreat the Angels, but other than that, they were all good games. If I had a Loyalist in play, I would've been happy, lol.

We should beat UW Miracles usually. It's one of our good Matchups. Don't overextend into Terminus, but don't play too safe. 99% of the time you should Matron for Ringleader. It's quite tricky to play, but it's our game to win. Pithing Needle is good SB card, so is Thorn of Amethyst, and maybe 1-2 Surgical Extractions (only use in response of them tapping Top on your turn. That way they'll lose their top card, and the Miracle with it), while ReB was not. Ports are very good here. Delay their play to the max. Use Ports to shut them off WW, and use them o your turn to prevent a mid-combat Terminus. If you'll use it on your turn, the best time is during the Draw phase, because you have more information than on the upkeep, and you ca play/Vial dudes on your mainphase and attack.

How do you beat Zoo?

With Wasteland, Vial, Mogg Warmarchall and Stingscourger (and Ports). Chumpblock the shit out of them, until you can get Matron->Ringleader going, and you win by card advantage. Do not try to race them. They have bigger dudes and faster removal., but only Library as CA. Only Gempalm when you're SURE you'll kill a dude. Cut them of a color if you can. Preferably Green, since it's almost all their dudes, ad has 0 Instants. Piledriver is bad. SB Kinesis help. You need to use them very wisely. Not in the early game, but later, when you chump 2-3 guys, and finish them off with Kinesis. Trade life for board presence until you're at 10 life. You'll need the board presence for Gempalm and for the kill. Going below 10 is bad, since they may have a lot of burn, but do what you have to do. I've come to find out that having dudes is more important than life in the early game. Bring TSH or Tuktuk if you have ANY reason to believe they might have Jitte.
Depending on your build it can be a good or awful matchup.

[jrw1985]

How do you beat Zoo?

Welcome to 2010.

[Korvo]

Yesterday i tested Punishing Goblins vs UR Delver and went 5:2. Its really great to finish every creature with PF UR Delver has to offer. But on the other side i realise how strong Price of Progress is. This card finished me off twice. Well there are not so much decks who play PoP so im not really worried about it.

Here is my list:

Deck:
4 Grove
4 Waste
4 Caverns
1 Taiga
5 Mountain
5 Fetch

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader

4 Warchief
1 Chieftain

3 MWM
1 Piledriver
1 TSH

4 Punishing Fire
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger

1 Krenko
1 SGC

SB:
2 Kinesis
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Boartusk Liege
2 Red Elemental Blast

My SB is not at the final state but i think its ok. (its nearly identical with the one from ScatmanX)

Last thing i have to say is that i always had enough mana to cast PF and make the "combo" work so the mana base is very stable.

I will test against Jund this weekend. I will keep you up to date.

[jrw1985]

Some quick math. Some important implications!

If you want to make a land drop each turn for the first 4 turns, you should be running 23 lands. I think making 4 land drops is a strategically significant number for us, considering our most important mid-game card is cc4 (Ringleader) and Wasteland means we are often shorting ourselves also. Making our land drops is very important.

On the play, cards drawn thru turn 4 = 10
On the draw, cards drawn thru turn 4 = 11

On the play: 60 cards in deck / 10 cards drawn = 6 cards in deck / cards drawn
Since you want to make 4 land drops over the first 4 turns...
(4 land cards drawn) x (6 cards in deck / cards drawn) = 24 Land cards in deck

This is simply saying that on the Play you will want 24 lands in your deck in order for the proportion of land cards in your deck to be consistent with making a land drop each turn for the first 4 turns. Easy.

On the draw: 60 cards in deck / 11 cards drawn = 5.45 cards in deck / cards drawn
Since you want to make 4 land drops over the first 4 turns...
(4 land cards drawn) x (5.45 cards in deck / cards drawn) = 21.8 Land cards in deck, rounds up to 22 Lands

This is simply saying that on the Draw you will want 22 lands in your deck in order for the proportion of land cards in your deck to be consistent with making a land drop each turn for the first 4 turns.

Since you cannot control whether you will go be on the play or draw I think you should just play the average of the two land requirements, which is 23 lands. It won't be the idea number if you're on the play G1, but I've been running 22 lands for long enough that I know it can be done easily with 23.

MORE IMPORTANTLY
If you run 24 lands MD it is entirely mathematically reasonable to side OUT 2 lands when on the draw.
If you run less than 24 Lands MD it is entirely reasonable to side IN lands when on the play, up to 24 lands.

I'm going to start brewing lists with 23 lands MD and 1 SB. The SB land I'm going to start testing is Smoldering Spires because it adds utility when on the play following up a T1 Lackey.

Another thing I was thinking about what the number of Cheat cards we need to run. The Cheat cards that matter are Lackey, Vial, and Instigator. I generally always mulligan to a Cheat card because they are what drives the Goblin engine. Without them you are just stuck with wayyy too many expensive cards in hand. So I want 1 Cheat in my opening 7. So, 1/7th of my deck must be Cheat cards.

60/7 = 8.57 ~ rounds up to 9. 9 Cheat cards. 4 Vial, 4 Lackey, and 1 Instigator. Vial and Lackey are the best just because they're 1-drops. Instigator gets to fill that 9th slot.

So, mathmatically speaking, if you want to have a Cheat card in your opening hand AND make your land drops, you will need 9 Cheat cards and 24 Lands in your 75. I'm advocating 23 lands MD, 1 SB, so you can side 1 land out when on the draw and side 1 land in when on the play.