I would add Jace Beleren ("Little Jace") before a 4th Jace. You can get him down a turn earlier, UW control often is not applying direct pressure, meaning they can't cast Big Jace before dealing with Little Jace, giving you more time to find your Big Jace (e.g. draw down Little Jace and keep him at 1 until you get a Big Jace, zero him out and then cast the big guy).Originally Posted by JimmyC27
You can't be as proactive like this against BUG because they have Abrupt Decay and creatures to pressure your Beleren. It's probably more useful as JTMS removal in that matchup.
But more discard is also a decent option in this situation, and is relevant against combo as well.
Went 3-0-1 at my locals last night. Played against:
Esper Blade (2-0) - Game one I win the Jace war, G2 he mulls to oblivion.
Reanimator (1-1-1) - Game one a Sphinx tears me apart, game 2 he can't resolve anything through counters, and game 3 drags on and he can't get me before turns.
Esper Blade (2-1) - Game one I mull to four and die to a Stoneforge I can't answer, Game 2 I resolve a Jace and beat him to death with a Stoneforge. Game 3 he keeps a weak hand and scoops after whiffing on lands off his Brainstorm.
Omniscience (2-1) - Game one he resolves SnT -> Omniscience and I scoop after he shows me the Burning Wish. Game 2 I have the Karakas for his shown in Emrakul and beat him to death with an equipped Clique. Game 3 he mulls to four and is never really in it.
I played a maindeck very similar to this one (also check out that hot Shred Memory tech in the side, probably too cute but interesting nonetheless). Basically I dropped the maindeck discard in favor of of more robust counter package (4 FoW, 2 Pierce, 2 Snare, 1 Counterspell) and a decent removal package (4 Swords, 1 EE, 1 Vindicate, 1 Verdict). Both Pierce and Snare did some work throughout the night, but the 3rd Pierce out of the board was often dead. I think that I would like to find space for a pair of Flusterstorms in the board because they are live so much longer than Pierce when you need the extra counters.
What are people's thoughts about dropping discard for counters? Discard is really helpful for finding the optimal line given your opponent's hand but I wasn't as happy with it against some of the midrange decks with redundant threats. It may have just been my matchups but I ended up boarding in my discard every round anyway. I like the flexibility of counters and I feel like they are live topdecks for a longer time than discard. They also let you sit back and tap out less and play a more reactive game.
The information the discard gives you is the reason that UWB has been consistently outperforming UW. I don't have enough seas so I've been jamming UW with friggin' Gitaxian Probe (it's been awesome).
Anybody jammed Ancestral Visions in Esper? Most likely in place of the third Snapcaster, the Clique(s), and whatever one-ofs you like least.
Here is how I see the breakdown of the two:
Discard:
Pros
- Perfect information is really useful for control decks.
- Seize grab your action -> SCM, Seize, grab your action can just win games on its own.
- Even if you don't grab something critical, you will almost always grab something.
Cons
- Forces you to fetch more non-basics because a basic Swamp might as well be colorless in many situations.
- Doesn't do much against redundant threats.
- Pretty dead in the late game and games tend to go long with this deck.
Counters:
Pros
- Stops random bullshit from beating you. Even though Force is card disadvantage, the power of hard countering stuff for free is not to be underestimated.
- Allows you to play a more reactive game, letting the opponent make mistakes.
- Force and Snare stay live into the lategame (hardcasting Force is not that uncommon with the deck).
- Protects your stuff against top decked answers.
Cons
- Not having perfect information means you might use your counters incorrectly/in the wrong order.
- Can be the wrong answer for the problem, Pierce against Confidant or Snare against an opposing Jace.
- Pierce can just be a total do nothing in the late game.
Edit: This might also be an issue of local meta vs. big tournaments. Counters are better when you know what your opponents are playing whereas discard becomes stronger when that perfect information is more necessary.
*** The main reason I don't like the discard version as much as the pure U/W build, (or U/W/R with 1-2 volcanic and fetches for REB) is due to the fact that discard only grabs what your opponent happens to have in their hand at that moment you decide to cast it, (if they didn't just hide it/them with brainstorm); it seems as if you basically have to pray that they have the card you want to take. If they draw that crucial spell after you play your discard and pluck somthing else they may not have needed, it's not as valuable as the counter that you could have had in your had to use on the critical card they just cast. Just a few thoughts.. It's late and i'm tired. I'm by no means a top pro, but i'll throw my U/W list up soon with reasons for selections if anyone wants to test it out. Thanks!
Hi everybody, i'm going to play an UW version of this deck at a local tournament in italy (around 60 players) the meta will be something like Bug, Jund, Canadian Thresh, some sort of S&T, some
Maverick and some storm combo... i considered playing this version:
23 lands:
4 wasteland
2 volcanic island
3 tundra
1 glacial fortress
1 karakas
4 flooded strand
1 arid mesa
3 misty rainforest
3 island
1 plains
creatures 11
4 stoneforge mysotc
3 snapcaster mage
2 vendilion clique
2of/split of (Venser, shaper savant, Geist of saint traft, maybe Resto angel) does anybody have any tests results with any of these?
spells
4 brainstorm
4 stp
2 engineered explosives
2 spell snare
2of/ split of counterspell/ mana leak
3/4 of Force of will
2 spell pierce
2 sensei's divining top
2/3 jace, tms
0/1 elspeth, knight errant
0/1 supreme verdict
1 batterskull
1 sword of feast and famine
SB:
2 disenchant
1 supreme verdict
3 red elemental blast/pyroblast
1 umezawa's jitte
2 path to exile
1 pyroclasm
2 surgical extraction
2 RiP/ Relic of progenitus
1 flusterstorm
i tried little Jace and i found it overwhelming in most situations, elspeth is great vs any king of B/G/x IMHO the real problems of this deck are 2:Lily and punishing fire, i choose to play 4x wasteland maindeck because of the second and the fact that manbases now in the format are becoming fragiles, explosives are there beacuse they can save our a** vs. lily, and it punishes especially Bug delver and Canadian for the low curve of their creatures, spell snare is an answer for confidants, toutach, opposing mystics, is a little underwhelming vs. S&T, i don't think anyway that Venser woulb too necessary having the red splash for SB, but maybe i am wrong, don't know if could be better a version with 4 md planeswalkers but i guess that will put our curve too high, top is useful in a meta rich with discard for floating stronger cards on top protecting them from discard effects, mana leak could be an option because of the 4x wasteland in the manabase.
Does anybody could give me an opinion about this (sketchy) decklist?
is Geist of St. Traft effective vs Jund/Bug?
Last weekend me and my friend both hit top 4 with UW Blade (30-people tourney though). We were both rocking Blood Moon in the Sb in such a meta you described (however, there aren't that much SnT decks in our meta. But we run 4 Spell Pierce and SnT is our best matchup next to TES/AnT).
Resolved Blood Moon against BUG, RUG, Jund, Esper and other decks (Valakut Nic Fit, other 3 color decks, 12-post, MUD) is usually good game.
Watch out for red decks playing Sulfuric Vortex post-SB though.
If you're afraid of Punishing Fire play more RiPs in your board. Those also help a lot against tempo RUG/BUG.
Geist is bad against Jund and BUG (only if they play liliana).
Liliana is a pain in the butt, but maxing out on spell pierces and a resolved elspeth, knight-errant is great against it.
Nice idea, can you post your list for reference? An idea that i want to verify is that restorarion angel in this deck might be awesome in something like 1 or 2 of, it has flash, can act as removal blocking, protect.mystic from decay (will see if useful), every creature we blink has a CiP effect, it can threaten planeswalkers, is resistant to bolt and decays, with sword is a 4 turn clock... It seems like it screams VALUE everhtime it moves :-) in case of sideboarding in 3x.RiP in your hopinion must i side out all 3x snappy?
That's what I came to believe too, concerning discard. I think that if you play well enough, you don't actually need to lean on discard, and you can focus on the actual permission battle on what you don't want to see. Actually I am interested in looking at your list as a reference. So far, this is what I have been having success with :
23 lands:
1 wasteland //still an open spot. not been bad, but hasn't bee amazing either
1 underground sea //powers the engineered explosives, and the perish in sideboard. gets fetched when I need it, or when I want it to eat a wasteland
4 tundra
1 glacial fortress
2 karakas
4 flooded strand
1 academy ruins
1 moorland hunt //actually has been impressive for me so far.
4 polluted delta
3 island
1 plains
creatures 12
4 stoneforge mysotc
4 snapcaster mage
3 vendilion clique
1 venser
spells
4 brainstorm
4 stp
1 engineered explosives
2 spell snare
1 counterspell
4 Force of will
2 spell pierce
1 sensei's divining top
3 jace, tms
1 elspeth, knight errant
1 batterskull
1 jitte
SB:
1 disenchant
2 supreme verdict
1 perish
3 meddling mage
1 sword of war and peace
1 path to exile
1 spell pierce
2 surgical extraction
2 geist of saint traft
1 flusterstorm
feel free to comment
Just split Top 4 of Jupiter Games Duel for Duals with Esper for one of each of the blue duals. This deck is insane. If you're gonna cut black, don't.
My decklist: http://jupitergames.info/articles/20...uary-2013-nelc
I am Rich.
also, i was playing 11 sword of feast and famines, as it says on that site.
Congratulations, list looks very solid. Digging the 11 Sword of Feast and Famine ;)
Did you miss Geist of Saint Traft in the board? Do you board out Snappys when you bring in RiP? Or how has RiP been performing for you, as I lean more towards GY without CDA/need of boarding out Snappy, as Relic of Progenitus...
Thanks man. I didn't miss it at all. The only thing in my board I would change is the Divert, which was awful all day.
And RIP has been pretty good. I don't side out snapcaster mage, the reason being the decks i bring it in against are hosed more than i am. it hurts a bit against BUG, but consider this: deathrite will stop my snapcaster mage or souls from getting full value anyway, and making deathrite and goyf useless outwayed the detriment to my deck. I could be wrong, as I haven't had the chance to fully test it, but in my feature match my BUG opponent valued it very highly and ripped it out of my hand, so that's something.
No, snapcaster mage is at least huge as a 2/1 flash guy against 1/1 mongeese. FoW's get boarded out most of the time.
Our list for reference:
Mainboard:
Creatures (7):
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
Planewalkers (5):
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Artifacts/Enchantments (3):
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Instant/Sorceries (22):
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Supreme Verdict
Land (23):
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
7 Island
3 Plains
1 Mountain
Sideboard:
1 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
1 Humility
1 Disenchant
1 Seal of Cleansing / Disenchant
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Blood Moon
1 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
4 Flex slots
I'm excited about Restoration Angel, so we will test that out. I think the more instants or flash cards you play, the better.
For anyone interested, if I were to play in an open field tournament tomorrow like a GP, it would be this list . This is the best list i've put together after a ton of testing:
Mainboard:
Creatures (7):
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
Planewalkers (3):
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Artifacts/Enchantments (5):
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Batterskull
Instant/Sorceries (23):
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
Land (22):
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Fortress
Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Counterbalance
1 Force of Will
1 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Disenchant/Oblivion Ring
1 Umezawa's Jitte
It has good game against the whole field due to the creature removal, counterspells, and the counterbalance sideboard plan. Sensei's, Ponder, Fetches, and Brainstorms allow for greater card filtering. This deck also has a really stable mana base, which is the main reason i began testing this version. Esper just rolled over to Rug with wasteland and stifle in testing.Test it out and let me know what you think!
Hi,
I got 1st place on saturday with 3-0-1 and an unlucky 3rd place on sunday going 4-1 (1st and 2nd also went 4-1) with the following list:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
3 Force of Will
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Force of Will
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Oblivion Ring
Saturday matchups:
Reanimator 2-0
Belcher 2-0
UW Stoneforge/Thopter/Balance 2-1
Merfolk ID (Played for 1st Pick 2-0)
Sunday:
Reanimator 2-0
Jund 0-2
RUG 2-0
Dredge 2-0
TheGate 2-0
I was torn between a stock esperlist and this gem, but I decided to try it out. The reasons for this were that I hoped to beat all the BUG, Jund and Tempo Matchups with Ancestral Visions (delaying with Bolts, Plows and Snares). Well it didn't work against Jund, but against the rest of the field. I think the card is well placed in the current slow and grindy meta, but the mvp's were actually Lightning Bolt and Spell Snare. Geist underperformed a little.
I'm still looking for a good way to beat Jund, Although I lost both games, I think I was very unlucky. Game 1 I resolved 2! Visions while a 3 Goyf 2 Wasteland hand was beating me up. I handled two goyfs with Bolt and Swords early, but by the time I reached 4 mana I had very low live with a Geist in play to buy me a crucial turn to resolve Batterskull, but he topdecked Liliana. Second Game we both traded some cards and went to topdecking mode. I had two Brainstorms still in my hand but found 5 Lands with them. My Jund record is 0-6 in tornament play right now. I considered playing Punishing Fire, but I really dislike that card. Maybe Esperblade is better for this matchup, but I think the matchup is still bad.
Well I'm still satisfied with this performance, won a Wasteland and an Entreat and most important, I had fun playing with my bolts again.
Last edited by preddi; 01-21-2013 at 09:23 AM.
Ok thanks, i've got some questions about your decklist:
1 why do you run Tamiyo? It' for a specific matchup?
2 why play ponder over SDT? It's simply for blue count?
3 which is the minimum number of basics for playing blood moon in sb in your hopinion?
4 why not Vendilion clique ?
I post my actual resto-blade decklist for reference:
Creatures 11
2 restoration angel
4 stoneforge mystic
3 snapcaster mage
2 vendilion clique
Spells 27
4 brainstorm
2 top
4 stp
1 supreme verdict
1 detention sphere
1 engineered explosives
3FoW
2 spell snare
3 spell pierce
1 counterspell
1 batterskull
1 sword of feast and famine
3 jace tms
Lands 22
4 flooded strand
3 misty rainforest
1 arid mesa
3 tundra
1 glacial fortress
2 volcanic island
1 academy ruins
4 island
2 plains
1 karakas
Sb
1 elspeth
2 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
1 engineered explosives
1 path to exile
2 pyroclasm
2 rest in peace
1 enlightened tutor
1 blood moon
1 umezawa's jitte
1 disenchant
1 force of will
Something else I wanted to know. Has anyone tested with crucible of words recently? If yes, any reaction towards the card so far? I really want to try that card, but it seems subpar in a meta filled with deathrites. However, it could also just win games right away in some matchups. I might be overestimating the card tho.
Aside from that, I will be trying out the red splash this week, as I am becoming more and more interested with it. I also like pyroclasm as the sideboard addition, along with REB (probably a 2-of, most likely a 3-of).
In conclusion, I do not know what TomT's is on this, but having tried Tamiyo a bit after I saw it inculded in a few list on this thread, I really feel like that card was win more. I may be alone in thinking this, but it really felt like every time I pulled it out, it could have been literally anything else. I had it in there for decks like nic fit (matchup in which elspeth did the same job for one less mana) and matchups like bug (where elspeth still did a better job). locking down lands was cute and all, but it also ended up happening when I could actually get her to stick, aka when it did not matter.
Also, I don't feel like cards like blood moon are what you want to be playing in a UW stoneblade list. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that it a bad card, or anything, however, what I will say is that i believe that one of the uw's version biggest selling point is in fact the possibility to play utility lands, and the small edges you can gain out of them. With that in mind, I do not think that sacrificing these possibilities in order to play a "i win in a easier way" card is the right thing to do, not when the decks you are bringing this card in are in facts decks you already win against by getting those small edges over them in the course of the game. Feel free to comment on this point, I could be totally wrong too.
Tested, hated it. Simply too slow, and I'd rather keep mana up most times I have the ability to cast it. 23 lands rarely stutters for me, I typically have no issue getting up to 4 lands, which is my sweet spot. We can't afford to run more than 1 or 2 Wastelands anyways. Deathrite is a huge pain in actually doing anything useful with it anyways.
That makes sense. It could either be really good, or really bad, the way I saw it. Better not add something clunky in the 75 for no reason then.
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