I don't see how this statement goes against what I said.Originally Posted by Darkenslight
I other news, I just Split the Top 4 at Jupiter Games's monthly Duel of Duals event. huzzah 365$ for all those involved. Probably would have normally played it out, but solo driving 4 1/2 hours each way and having to get up early curbed my desire to gnash it out to be lessened. I'll supply a tournament report in the next day or two, busy time for me, but I still have my notes.
Here's the list I ran, I'm updating my main list with it, as it feels super strong. I know I say this every time, but the current build is the strongest I've played yet. After Oblivion Stone saved me from three totally different archetypes today, two of which were different combo, I'm completely sold on it.
// Lands
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [B] Tropical Island
2 [ZEN] Island (2)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [CMD] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
// Spells
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [GP] Repeal
2 [MR] Oblivion Stone
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 2 [CMD] Oblivion Stone
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
I really like the oblivion stones in the list. One of my favorite cards from back in the day--and it seems extremely useful since you can split the cost over two turns.
I was testing a bit with Thespian and it kind of helps the deck dodge wasteland a bit better. By this I mean you play the thespain first, then next turn play the cloudpost with 2 mana up. If they wasteland the post, you just copy in response. A bit narrow, but it plays a bit better than a hand with vesuva and 1 cloudpost.
Someone considered Batterskulls? Played them with success in Modern back then. Fixed a lot of Problems with aggressive decks and fits the curve well
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you don't have a problem with aggressive decks... ugg I loathe comments like this.
I appreciate your attempt to add to the discussion, but without doing any testing and coming from a stance of pure conjecture, can you understand how this doesn't help?
with the price of primeval titan sinking and the continued success of the deck, I'm strongly considering buying in. I understand that budgets shouldn't be a reason to sway from the optimal list, but how important is the second candelabra and the sideboard tabernacle? I'm currently on 1 Candelabra and 0 Tabernacle. Also, in which cases do you play Kozilek? Watching the SCG live streams I've only seen Emrakuls and Ulamogs. What's the use of the +4 cards when you can just win instead?
Rock - would love to hear where O-Stone shined that All is Dust wasn't pulling its weight (maybe MUD is crazy in your area?). I had previously tried Powder Keg and Ratchet Bomb and both felt clunky, and had been trying both All is Dust and Devastation Tide in that slot, and been pretty happy with both. Had actually forgotten about O-Stone as a card.
Although I am far from an expert with the deck (yet), from what I've seen they each serve different goals:
Emrakul wins.
Ulamog answers specific things that are causing you a problem (Bridge/Humility/etc).
Kozilek gets you to Emrakul.
Like, I've had a number of situations while I've been learning the deck where I can't quite get to Emrakul, but I can get to Kozilek. And usually, I draw into something that gets me to Emrakul the next turn.
Additionally, it's really fairly easy to exile space monsters, especially with Deathrite.meta. They just Hymn you/Thoughtseize/whatever, and then eat your guy in response to the trigger. Three seems like a pretty good number, and it's nice to have the flexibility that they each do something different.
I'm sure Jeremiah has a better, more thought-out explanation -- but I figured I'd offer my 2c in the meanwhile.
Concerning candelabra, especially if you are running Trinket Mage, I strongly suggest 2 since it enables you to have them in hand or get abrupt decayed and not have your plans get completely ruined. The deck can function without 2 candelabra, but your power level will be weakened, and your ability to explode out of situations you normally could not will be dampened.
The SCG coverage didn't have a video feed of my games against Goblins, where I cast Kozilek 2x to win me the game where I had no other avenues of play nearly as good. As Arianrhod said, and I have repeated in the development thread several times, Kozilek performs a vital role in the deck, which is assuring an equally strong play next turn, while requiring them to answer a 12/12 annhilator 4. Against any deck where all you need is advantage to win, and you aren't facing down a potential combo win or lethal pressure, Kozilek will always outperform Ulamog. More STP life, more card advantage, and next turn will be significantly more stable.
I'll write up a tournament report right now.
all spot on, additionally, ulamog only nets you a 2 card swing -> (1 vindicate & 1 huge-body/removal) whilst Kozilek nets a 5 card swing, and with brainstorm and top, this advantage gets amplified further, giving you serious reach.
61 cards maindeck?
yup, I address it in the tournament report here.
Great report, hope you get your stuff back.
I'm pretty sold on the MB oblivion stones, but how have they added to your games in the sideboard? I realize this is a pretty broad question, but as I'm building this deck I'm finding myself drawing specific attention to side board choices and what the optimal mix would be for my meta.
Tournament report is up! In the Tournament Reports section: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...go-with-12Post
Oblivion Stones sound like a great idea! As a sweeper I think it is better than All Is Dust since it can be used earlier over the course of two turns, and is an all-around answer to many random problems. Rock, did you ever have any issues with them destroying your Candelabras? I suppose losing a candle isn't the worst price to pay when clearing the board.
Nice report. you sideboard TOTALLY differently than I do, but that only shows the resilience the deck has to multiple strategies.
I only destroyed my own candelabra once with Oblivion stone at the top4 event, and I popped the O-stone twice while a candelabra and SDT both had fate counters on them.
Rock, would it be unreasonable to cut a brainstorm to bring it back down to 60 cards? I feel slightly uncomfortable running 61 and I've seen plenty of other lists at < 4 brainstorm. However, if you feel the one extra really gets there.. Please advise, thank you.
If you insisted on going sub 61, then I'd cut an expedition map or a Trinket Mage.
Agreed on the resiliency of the deck. Would you mind sharing your sideboarding in some of the most common matches?
With my current version, I find that I sideboard much heavier than I used to.
Against Rug I almost always keep in bojuka bog, as the mana can be relevant, and dwindling mongoose is huge.
I never side in flusterstorm against decks with dude win conditions unless I fear something especially nasty, Armageddon is the only spell that comes to mind. I basically always use flusterstorm aggressively and never defensively. Aggressively it is a Last Word, defensively it is force of will. I only bring in chalice when I want to lay it at 0, or if 1 completely cripples them, moreso than just hitting cantrips. Elves, High Tide, that's about it.
I bring in venser CONSTANTLY. As in, basically every matchup. He's a great cover-all. Any deck that isn't going to win by turn 3 I bring in Venser if I dont' know their hate. It can save cloudposts and it stops shenanigans. It gets abused by karakas and can go infinite mana with a candelabra and karakas. Most importantly, it is EXTREMELY annoying to play against, and annoying is this deck's goal.
I basically never side out Show & tells against decks running more than 4 counterspells, as they free the way for hardcasting Titans so well. Obviously decks who have things to show in I side them out.
Any deck that overcommits their dudes to mana ratio I bring in Tabernacle like Goblins or Ichorid. Most decks that run vial, merfolk being a large exception. Of course tabernacle comes in against any deck that can run Empty the Warrens.
Bebs are obvious. Red bad things that happen fast? ya in.
Mindbreak trap against decks that dont' give me a turn 3. Elves, Tes, High Tide, the like. rarely, if I need to exile things, Rector, sometimes loam, or if I just need an added counter I side it in.
O Stone has been coming in more and more. If they need their board to win, which is many decks, Ostones come in.
One thing that I've started noticing from playing 12-Post since your Providence showing is I'm beginning to question the importance of Expedition Map (as a four of). Between Trinket Mage's gradual resurgence, the fact that Primeval Titan and Candelabra do a better job, and that unlike Modern Tron we're more flexible in how we assemble our lands is there a need for 3-4 Expedition Map? Wouldn't two work?
Maybe they should be tried in the main board? The basic function of Venser is a different form of Repeal. I ask because I notice that I'm playing Venser more and more as well, sliding at least one to the main might not be a bad idea... for science.
My one concern about Oblivion Stone is that 12-Post commits to the board as well... namely Candelabra, Primeval Titan, and Kozilek. Granted losing those is better than dying.
I think that'd probably work better in the potential 16-Post decks (which the one I'm working on is basically MUD-splash green at this point) that may result from Thespian's Stage's printing than in UG 12-Post, although I guess it could work as a budget Candelabra (at least better than Magus of Candelabra).
To me it seems like expedition map is one of the weakest cards in the deck, so I did a little searching on gatherer for potential ways to search our deck for lands. I came across sylvan scrying. Seems like a cheaper way to find a land as well as shuffle, at the drawback of costing green and now that I think about it getting hit by pierce and snare. At the same time, if they waste their counters on this its probably good for us. Thoughts?
Hello all!
I just started testing this deck, seems awesome to me, cheers to Rock for its creation and for continuing its development.
Well, at this very moment, with 2 to 3 Trinkets MainDeck, Sylvan Scrying is kinda worse than Expedition Map, due to tutor reasons.I came across sylvan scrying
And you mentioned another drawback aswell.
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