Gatecrash Spoilers

[Lemnear]

Unless I am mistaken this is the first time this lead designer has led a set. Forget legacy I have heard just as many standard players complain about the low power level of the set is.

It's like Kamigawa following Mirrodin. From Time to Time WotC needs to depower standard drastically to sell cards of the following expansions and dodge the power creep spiral which brought us Tarmogoyf, Nacatl, Knight of the Reliquary and delver. Just doing it mid-block is fucking ridiculous.

People complaining about the power Level are spoiled to no end imo. They should have played Standard bak then with Kamigawa where thieving magpie was the best carddraw available.

[bruizar]

You should take a look at the prices of the gatecrash cards. So overpriced.

[Lemnear]

You should take a look at the prices of the gatecrash cards. So overpriced.

It's still presale. I wouldn't expect anything different unless people underrate cards like Deathrite Shaman again, which I flipped several playsets for 220%+ of the price I bought them immediately. People please should continue buying the hype and misrating cards :D

[Darkenslight]

It's like Kamigawa following Mirrodin. From Time to Time WotC needs to depower standard drastically to sell cards of the following expansions and dodge the power creep spiral which brought us Tarmogoyf, Nacatl, Knight of the Reliquary and delver. Just doing it mid-block is fucking ridiculous.

People complaining about the power Level are spoiled to no end imo. They should have played Standard bak then with Kamigawa where thieving magpie was the best carddraw available.

FWIW, I did play Standard in Mirrodin-Kamigawa block. Affinity had the best card-draw in that thing, with Thoughtcast. Magpie was the best non-gimmicky draw available. But most fo the creep today is in the creatures, which is a pain when the other types (except Planeswalker) aren't seeing that kind of creep either.

[Lemnear]

FWIW, I did play Standard in Mirrodin-Kamigawa block. Affinity had the best card-draw in that thing, with Thoughtcast. Magpie was the best non-gimmicky draw available. But most fo the creep today is in the creatures, which is a pain when the other types (except Planeswalker) aren't seeing that kind of creep either.

I was highlighting the downfall AFTER Affinity got banned as a concept; Sorry for being unclear. I'm supporting your annoyance that creatures are favored even WotC tries to sell us the argument that a Body attached to a spell is a downside instead of an imo obvious advantage

See Dark Confidant and Dark Tutelage.
See Yawgmoths Bargain and Griselbrand.
See Thalia/Cannonist and Thorn of Amethyst
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[lyracian]

You should take a look at the prices of the gatecrash cards. So overpriced.

Glad I am working this weekend so I will miss the prerelease and save some cash. I have spent a massive $7 including shiping on the set getting playset of Boros Charm and Skull Crack.

[Offler]

MaRo said that Development was concerned about the number of hybrid one-drops Standard could support. Completing the cycle may have put them at or just over that number, so they opted not to finish it.

So yes, if people want to bitch about the hybrids one-drops not coming back, they can blame knuckle-dragging Standard players.

As for the uncounterable cycle, it was made clear from the beginning that it was an RtR-only cycle aimed at a specific audience.

Stupid Standard always getting in the way of good Eternal cards.

Few eternal formats = Singleton 100, German Highlander or Commander suffered from "stupid counter decks". Imagine it like monoblue deck with 40+ counterspells, at average cmc 1,5 and isochron scepter. Wincondition in such deck was killing with single 1/1 creature.

Previous sets with "Cant be countered" or "split second" methods are too old to be available for new players (or had high cmc such as Obliterate). Some cards such as Wrath of god were never printed in newer multicolor uncounterable variation until RTR.

Return to Ravnica, and cards like Cavern of souls made "stupid counter decks" not viable anymore on few competetive events for those formats. This brought some fresh air into deckbuilding...

[Lemnear]

Few eternal formats = Singleton 100, German Highlander or Commander suffered from "stupid counter decks". Imagine it like monoblue deck with 40+ counterspells, at average cmc 1,5 and isochron scepter. Wincondition in such deck was killing with single 1/1 creature.

Previous sets with "Cant be countered" or "split second" methods are too old to be available for new players (or had high cmc such as Obliterate). Some cards such as Wrath of god were never printed in newer multicolor uncounterable variation until RTR.

Return to Ravnica, and cards like Cavern of souls made "stupid counter decks" not viable anymore on few competetive events for those formats. This brought some fresh air into deckbuilding...

Mimimimi ... I hate Counters. What a nonsense in the first 2 paragraphs...

Cavern changed exactly nothing for Legacy deckbuilding nor created new decks. Decks like RUG (FOW, Daze + Pierce enough Counter for your criteria?) and miracles are still top performer

[Barook]

It's like Kamigawa following Mirrodin. From Time to Time WotC needs to depower standard drastically to sell cards of the following expansions and dodge the power creep spiral which brought us Tarmogoyf, Nacatl, Knight of the Reliquary and delver. Just doing it mid-block is fucking ridiculous.

Depowering Standard to sell later sets is one thing, but it also fucks over the sales of the current "bad" sets. Doing it with the most popular setting ever seems kinda stupid, especially mid-set.

The better question is: Does Standard even need depowering? Whenever I watch the SCG Open from time to time and Standard is on, it always seems like it's always a clusterfuck of 10+ lands (because LD sucks ass), Thragtusk and Restoration Angel. And this doesn't seem that overpowered, but rather just warped and stupid because people can ramp without ways to put them back into place. And I fail to see how churning out even more overcosted crap is going to change that.

[Lemnear]

The better question is: Does Standard even need depowering? Whenever I watch the SCG Open from time to time and Standard is on, it always seems like it's always a clusterfuck of 10+ lands (because LD sucks ass), Thragtusk and Restoration Angel. And this doesn't seem that overpowered, but rather just warped and stupid because people can ramp without ways to put them back into place. And I fail to see how churning out even more overcosted crap is going to change that.

I think i can answer that. WotC thinks 70% of all Magic Players are timmy's between 9 and 14 years and they'll cry if LD cut them off from casting their 7cc+ Monsters. Thus ramp gets better by each set and LD is dropped.

On a more serious note: yes, depowering is important or the power creep needed to continuously sell sets will seriously affect modern, Legacy and vintage. Imagine they felt the Need to outclass delver in RtR to sell sets and the impact in standard, modern and legacy...

Sidenote: this actually happend in vintage with the tinker-bots: sardia -> Sundering Titan -> DSC -> sphinx -> Myr battlesphere -> blightsteel colossus

[wcm8]

WotC tries to sell us the argument that a Body attached to a spell is a downside instead of an imo obvious advantage

See Dark Confidant and Dark Tutelage.
See Yawgmoths Bargain and Griselbrand.
See Thalia/Cannonist and Thorn of Amethyst
.
.
.

This is an important topic that needs to be brought to the company's card-designers' attention.

A creature accomplishes the following:

-Attacks (is a win condition by itself -- many a Vintage match has been won 2 life points at a time via an unanswered Bob. This also means it enables equipment, some of which are among the most broken, dumb, poorly-designed cards ever printed, e.g. Jitte. At some point, creatures require action on your opponent's part of some kind or they will lose.)
-Blocks (Either chump blocking, and thus gaining you life, thus gaining you 'time'/turns, or evenly, thus functioning as removal and time, or favorably, thus functioning as both potential removal and as a deterrent from your opponent attacking, and a gain in time)
-And of course, does whatever comes-into-play effect or static effect written on the card, thus elevating it to Sorcery or Enchantment status.

Compare that to a Sorcery/Instant -- a one time effect that only does exactly what is printed and is then discarded. Generally speaking, a single spell is never a win condition in itself. Enchantments/Artifacts remain in play and are perhaps slightly harder to interact with, but they don't attack or block, which is an UPSIDE, not a downside.

The argument that 'well, every deck plays creatures/creature removal, whereas not every deck plays counterspells, discard, or non-creature removal' is a poor reason to push the power level of creatures while not giving Spells and non-creature permanents a similar boost in power level.

Creatures are an important part of the game, but they shouldn't be the only aspect that gets pushed. I think the examples you highlighted are excellent examples of this disparity.

If Dark Tutelage cost 1B, decks would actually have an interesting choice in front of them: they could play Bob since they'd also get a creature out of it, thus helping to enable an aggressive strategy; they could play just Tutelage, thus giving the effect a bit more resiliency, but also a bit more 'danger' since you can't just chump block with it; or certain decks might play BOTH, to increase the density of that effect. This would also push the power level of Bx decks, without requiring a splash for Blue for card draw effects.

Maybe to make the card a little more balanced it would cost BB.

They had a perfect opportunity here and they blew it.

[joven]

This is an important topic that needs to be brought to the company's card-designers' attention.

A creature accomplishes the following:

-Attacks (is a win condition by itself -- many a Vintage match has been won 2 life points at a time via an unanswered Bob. This also means it enables equipment, some of which are among the most broken, dumb, poorly-designed cards ever printed, e.g. Jitte. At some point, creatures require action on your opponent's part of some kind or they will lose.)
-Blocks (Either chump blocking, and thus gaining you life, thus gaining you 'time'/turns, or evenly, thus functioning as removal and time, or favorably, thus functioning as both potential removal and as a deterrent from your opponent attacking, and a gain in time)
-And of course, does whatever comes-into-play effect or static effect written on the card, thus elevating it to Sorcery or Enchantment status.

Compare that to a Sorcery/Instant -- a one time effect that only does exactly what is printed and is then discarded. Generally speaking, a single spell is never a win condition in itself. Enchantments/Artifacts remain in play and are perhaps slightly harder to interact with, but they don't attack or block, which is an UPSIDE, not a downside.

The argument that 'well, every deck plays creatures/creature removal, whereas not every deck plays counterspells, discard, or non-creature removal' is a poor reason to push the power level of creatures while not giving Spells and non-creature permanents a similar boost in power level.

Creatures are an important part of the game, but they shouldn't be the only aspect that gets pushed. I think the examples you highlighted are excellent examples of this disparity.

If Dark Tutelage cost 1B, decks would actually have an interesting choice in front of them: they could play Bob since they'd also get a creature out of it, thus helping to enable an aggressive strategy; they could play just Tutelage, thus giving the effect a bit more resiliency, but also a bit more 'danger' since you can't just chump block with it; or certain decks might play BOTH, to increase the density of that effect. This would also push the power level of Bx decks, without requiring a splash for Blue for card draw effects.

Maybe to make the card a little more balanced it would cost BB.

They had a perfect opportunity here and they blew it.

A body with a strong effect like Dark Confidant is strong because it serves as both a creature and an effect (while it is in play). This is strong because there are only a limited number of slots in a deck. Packing threats and effect densely is an advantage. Cards like Dark Tutelage that just have one effect and sit there doing nothing right after they have been cast aren't played anymore these days. They are too weak concerning threat/effect density.

[Gammadoom]

A body with a strong effect like Dark Confidant is strong because it serves as both a creature and an effect (while it is in play). This is strong because there are only a limited number of slots in a deck. Packing threats and effect densely is an advantage. Cards like Dark Tutelage that just have one effect and sit there doing nothing right after they have been cast aren't played anymore these days. They are too weak concerning threat/effect density.

Sylvan Library and Aether Vial are two cards that came immediately to mind to contradict your argument. Dark Tutelage may very well have seen play at two mana.

[rufus]

Sylvan Library and Aether Vial are two cards that came immediately to mind to contradict your argument. Dark Tutelage may very well have seen play at two mana.

I think that the Dark Confidant effect is just inexpensive and good enough that it more than offsets the vulnerability.

In general, if the effect is immediate (stuff like Snapcaster Mage,Griselbrand,Thalia, Guardian of Thraben,Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Primeval Titan, or even Stoneforge Mystic) then the body is a bonus. Similarly, if the creature is big enough to be a beater on its own like Knight of the Reliquary, then the ability is a bonus.

Creatures with fragile bodies, and abilities that are conditional and slow to come on line like Goblin Welder or Mangara of Corondor end up being marginal.

[Barook]

A body with a strong effect like Dark Confidant is strong because it serves as both a creature and an effect (while it is in play). This is strong because there are only a limited number of slots in a deck. Packing threats and effect densely is an advantage. Cards like Dark Tutelage that just have one effect and sit there doing nothing right after they have been cast aren't played anymore these days. They are too weak concerning threat/effect density.

This

Problem with many enchantments/artifacts is (virtual) card disadvantage when they do nothing. Only the most powerful effects are worth the trade-off, often being able to generate card quality or long-term card advantage.

[joven]

Sylvan Library and Aether Vial are two cards that came immediately to mind to contradict your argument. Dark Tutelage may very well have seen play at two mana.

Ok, your're right, I thought of cards like Phyrexian Arena or Martial Law or something like that.
Of course in addition to all, the general Legacy casting cost rule applies: If it cost more than 2 mana, it must win the game immediately (more or less). ;)

[Rizso]

Got a very positive experiance from extort!

[Offler]

Mimimimi ... I hate Counters. What a nonsense in the first 2 paragraphs...

Cavern changed exactly nothing for Legacy deckbuilding nor created new decks. Decks like RUG (FOW, Daze + Pierce enough Counter for your criteria?) and miracles are still top performer

Thats why I was talking about EDH and HL. BTW I like counters, but I dislike decks without idea.

[Koby]

I wonder if this set looks like a steaming pile of feces because WotC knew they would bring back the duals for Dragon's Maze regardless.

[Lord Seth]

I was highlighting the downfall AFTER Affinity got banned as a concept; Sorry for being unclear. I'm supporting your annoyance that creatures are favored even WotC tries to sell us the argument that a Body attached to a spell is a downside instead of an imo obvious advantage

See Dark Confidant and Dark Tutelage.
See Yawgmoths Bargain and Griselbrand.
See Thalia/Cannonist and Thorn of Amethyst
.
.
.

I'm not sure how those examples show Wizards of the Coast to be trying to sell you on that. The Dark Confidant/Dark Tutelage example assumes they consider Dark Confidant to be a fair creature in the first place (they likely don't). I'm not even sure what you're trying to say wit the Yawgmoth's Bargain and Griselbrand thing, considering Griselbrand costs more mana and his draw ability is much less efficient. And Thalia has disadvantages Thorn of Amethyst doesn't have, specifically the fact you can only have one in play and she's restricted to White decks.