I've been tinkering with Jund a bit on MTGO and have started to wonder about both Burning Wish and Pithing Needle. Have any of you tried a wish package? There are a number of soceries that spring to mind that are situationally amazing:
Life from the Loam
Maelstrom Pulse
Pyroclasm/Nausea/Cave-In/Massacre
Seeds of Innocence/Pulverize/Shatterstorm/Shattering Spree
Hull Breach
Chain Lightning/Innocent Blood/Chainer's Edict
Wurm Harvest
Those are the ones that spring to mind, and some of them might not be very good. I've done a little bit of testing running 2-3 burning wish main with a SB package of Life from the Loam, Maelstrom Pulse, Nausea, Massacre, Seeds of Innocence, Chain Lightning, Hull Breach.
The downside is loss of tempo while the upside is more consistent access to potentially game saving or game ending effects.
Have any of you guys tried this? If so how did it go?
As far as Needle goes, I'm wondering it it might be a decent metagame call to shut down planeswalkers, Helm of Obedience, Sneak Attack, Belcher, and possibly some equipment. Thoughts?
I'm not sure about the burning wish package. What do you plan on taking out? It's kind of clunky and we don't have a way to search for it like how TA can. It's just an extra turn to play something that we could have just maindecked. Besides I know Jund is great at attrition but that doesn't mean I want to go late game against Tundra decks. And against what decks do we plan on toolboxing against?Originally Posted by swarmofseals
Maybe copy what TA does and add a sinkhole package. Apparently that's the rage now and pretty much what TA does during 2nd/3rd match against all slower decks.
I think there are currently many decks that there is nothing to really wish for against. So ok, against S&T you might get a win off wish for innocent blood, against Maverick you can wish for Massacre and you always get that random win against Enchantress with Reverent Silence or against lands with Loam. But what do you wish for against Canadian *****? What do you wish for against TA? Against Miracles? Against Blade control (maybe artifact removal is viable option)? What about mirrors? Not only is it hard to resolve wish against most of current field but also those decks are not really susceptible to taking massive damage from resolved wish and in that case you will usually wish it was another Abrupt Decay or something among that way...
The only issue with the Sinkhole package in Jund is that Team America already has game vs. combo because of their counters (lighter for more aggro plans, but nevertheless there) and discard. Jund only has discard, maybe Pyroblast for S&T, but certainly no FoW or Spell Pierce. Sinkhole could be the nuts, but I feel like we're better with a loam package (if not already in the main), since it allows us to mana screw and protect our colors.
That said, I praise Team America for keeping Miracles shut out in the cold with Sinkhole.
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I think against RUG you probably end up either getting chain lightning, innocent blood, or life from the loam depending on your board position. Against Miracles it depends on the version -- you might get Maelstrom Pulse or Hull Breach against angel tokens/Jace/Rest in Peace. Against Esper Stoneblade or UW Stoneblade you'd probably end up getting artifact removal of some sort or possibly massacre. In none of these situations is the wish likely to actually win you the game, but it's not really a dead card either.
The main reason why I had this idea is that a lot of Jund lists run something like one maindeck copy of Maelstrom Pulse and one maindeck copy of Life from the Loam. If you replace these two with Burning Wish you increase the access to both cards while also opening up some other possibilities, mainly at the cost of sideboard space and some tempo.
As you stated, Sinkhole mostly for the UW/x MU. Otherwise the outcome will depend upon whether or not Confidant doesn't bite the dust. Keep them from getting the 4 lands with our disruption package and we should be ok.The only issue with the Sinkhole package in Jund is that Team America already has game vs. combo because of their counters (lighter for more aggro plans, but nevertheless there) and discard. Jund only has discard, maybe Pyroblast for S&T, but certainly no FoW or Spell Pierce. Sinkhole could be the nuts, but I feel like we're better with a loam package (if not already in the main), since it allows us to mana screw and protect our colors.
That said, I praise Team America for keeping Miracles shut out in the cold with Sinkhole.
Sinkhole mucks Esperblade, not so much Miracles itself. Miracles has a hard time against Jund, but Sinkholes allow BUg to crush Esper.The only issue with the Sinkhole package in Jund is that Team America already has game vs. combo because of their counters (lighter for more aggro plans, but nevertheless there) and discard. Jund only has discard, maybe Pyroblast for S&T, but certainly no FoW or Spell Pierce. Sinkhole could be the nuts, but I feel like we're better with a loam package (if not already in the main), since it allows us to mana screw and protect our colors.
That said, I praise Team America for keeping Miracles shut out in the cold with Sinkhole.
-Matt
I was under the impression that Jund has quite a bit of difficulty against Miracles?
No, it's not that bad at all. It gets ridiculously good if you run Pithing Needle and/or Slaughter Games out of the side.
-Matt
As far as Jund is conerned, why would we play Sinkhole instead of Choke? Or are you guys thinking of using it in addition to Choke?
Abrupt Decay.
I just want to say that this advice is huge. I played a bit more against RUG and took a very different philosophy. Rather than trying to get even or ahead on the early turns I just assumed I would win the mid to lategame if I got there. I generally fetched much more strategically to play around maindeck stifle and it worked out pretty well. I did get stifled once or twice when I tried to waste something or fetch, but never in a critical situation. I always played around daze and spell pierce when I could -- for example I had a hand with two goyfs and just passed turn 2 rather than playing one into a daze. It really worked. Abrupt Decay let me catch up to his early starts and when I refused to let him counter my key cards he just folded.
To be completely accurate; it is the combination of Decay, Sinkhole, and especially Grip that lets TA beat Miracles. They still have enough spot removal post-board to slow down your clock, if they have Top. They run enough lands, basics mainly, that they can use that time to recover, and use their basically unbeatable late-game cards(Jace, Terminus, Entreat) if they have Top. TA can't often Daze Top, and Forcing it is often a lose-lose situation. Even if you still have Force against Miracles post-board. Decay takes care of CB if you can't counter it. And it also stops RiP/Field shennanigans if you're fortunate to find someone still running that. But it is the ability to remove Top, which everyone knows is the key to the deck, and possibly Helm, since RiP is still a justified inclusion without Energy Field, that allows all the rest of TA's disruption to remain relevant.That said, I praise Team America for keeping Miracles shut out in the cold with Sinkhole.
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Went 4-1 today for 5/26 (bad ties) and got myself a nice litts foil Batterskull for my troubles and 10€ ;)
R1 1-2 against Canadian
G3 was pretty rough, he mulled to six with me on the play and my t1 Seize revealed Volc Volc Trop Waste Snare Delver so i took the Delver, he then topdecked Mungo into Brainstorm into double Mungoose and Delver. I lost with 3 Bolts and 2 Decay in hand as i wastn able to find a Goof on time.
R2 2-1 against Pun Zoo
I messed up game 1 as i miscounted his mana and my life somehow (Ooze got me midcombat)
G2 He never found a second land and G3 he never found anything after double Bolt on Hierarchs and double waste on his 2 lands.
R3 2-0 against ANT
G1 he wast able to get to 5 mana t1 otp so i could discard Ad Nauseam with Seize and followed up with double waste into Hymn Bloodbraid into Deathrite and he wasn't able to recover on time.
G2 he somehow brainfarted, i mulled to Land Land Land Nihil Spellbomb and he forgot that i could activate is without using black mana, so i could nuke the yard in response to PiF.
R4 2-1 against High Tide
G1 Seize, Hymn, Seize+Confidant into BBE into Hymn
G2 i Lost after a mull to 5 keeping Blast Blast Hymn DRS Badlands because he had double Force on my Hymn into Hightide/Timespiral
G3 was quite harsh, he went to six while i saw my first land at 3 cards in hand -> kept Bayou Duress BBE
The Duress took Timespiral and revealed 4 Lands and Cunning Wish. I then proceded to topdeck Land into Seize into Land into Hymn into Land for BBE into Bolt to get him exactly before he coul storm me out. Phew.
R5 2-1 agianst Belcher
G1 he went Probe Probe and passed because he lacked 1 mana and drew the Taiga in his Grip so Land Grant was dead. I got the Seize for ETW and he never gets into the game while i curve out perfect.
G2 He makes 2 Goblins T1 and i had to Topdeck Deathrite after my mull to five to get there with Engineered Plague, i did not.
G3 I open with T1 Duress picking Bwish while he kept Land Grant, SSG, Tinder Wall x2 and Rite of Flamex2, he topdecked ETW like a boss and hit me once while i had the T3 Plague into T4 Liliana + Bolt for his hardcast SSG for the game.
The list was nearly the same as last time, -1 Inquisition + 1 Seize, - 1 Sylvan Library + 1 Liliana and exchanging 1 Pyroblast in the board with Pulse.
I played this today:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Strangleroot Geist
3 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Sylvan Library
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
SIDEBOARD
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Thoughtseize
3 Pyroblast
1 Damnation
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Surgical Extractions
2 Obstinate Baloth
I started 3-0, then cratered hard.
Basically:
R1: Kolt with Jund Mirror (2-0)
R2: David with UW Stoneblade (2-1)
R3: Matt with BUG (2-0)
R4: Steve with Sneak and Show (1-2)
R5: Donny with UW Miracles (1-2)
R6: Graeme with Merfolk (0-2 I think, I was out so I wasn't really playing well or paying attention, which I don't like to do, but I was upset at losing the last 2 rounds. Still shouldn't do it)
Basically, Strangleroot Geists were awesome all day. Matt thoughtseized one on the play game 2, turn 1, in anticipation. They broke through everything, were great, lots of damage, blockers (not necessary, but they could in theory). I never cast Cabal Therapy at all, sadly, but it should be good.
In round 4, game 3, I mulled to 5, kept Deathrite, Confidant, Cabal Therapy, Surgical, Pyroblast or something. Figured, against Sneak and Show, that's a good hand if I draw a land. A 4-card hand would not have gotten there really, and in that case I could at least Therapy SnT, Surgical it, then cast Shaman and re-therapy?
But I didn't draw a land, and he SnT me turn 3 with Force backup. Not much I can do.
R5, game 3, I made a pretty huge mistake. He drew pretty good, he started with T1 top, T2 counterbalance, T3 rest in peace (waiting for helm), and I managed to nuke everything basically, except the top. He had nothing in hand, and I always had two creatures, but he always got Terminus-es, Swords, and the like.
The mistake: I had Bob and Liliana at 3, and just cast Geist. He was at 17, and had no hand. I figured I could sac the geist to make 5 power, and that would eat up a turn. He top-decked his one-of Supreme Verdict (he did have top still). It was a stupid mistake.
I finally got a BBE but his top card was Entreat the Angels. GG. On turn 20 or something.
So I don't know. The deck runs awesome, Geists are awesome, I think I need a better SB vs. Miracles, SnT and Jund. The rest takes care of itself.
Chains of Mephistopheles were nice against Dave in R2G2, but other than that, meh. I am not sure if they should be in there, and definitely not 2. Oh, well.
I am going to try Garruk the Veil-Cursed or however the hell the flip-card Garruk calls himself now. Pretty solid against Miracles and Jund.
As for SnT, eeeeh. Annoying, but maybe with a bit better luck, the deck isn't that scary. Steve had some wild tech, Stifle, Wipe Away and such... so there's that.
I don't know if I even care about Dredge, it's almost non existent, it's nice to have Surgicals, but maybe 2 would be fine.
I would try something like this, maybe?
3 Pyroblast
2 Thoughtseize
2 Damnation
2 Surgical Extractions
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Garruk the Flip-Card
2 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Take something out
This deck is significantly harder to board for. I think the Jittes could be sick. I like Garruk.
Finally, the store, Heroic Dreams in Pickering, east-end of Toronto, great location, great people. Great opponents. I always enjoy the places I play at, this was my first time here, and it was great. Might as well say it.
edit:
Matt, Miracles sucks. It's a very annoying match-up. Top alone is such a pain in the ass. Donny was a good player, so that didn't help, but I am not cherishing that match-up. Maybe Garruk is the solution.
Yeah, I know how you feel. I think Ooze is the best beater after what we already have included (although you could play Call of the Herd if you wanted lol). I think Ooze and Jitte fill these rolls best by giving you beaters or making your beaters better than theirs.
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Alright, so Tony Chu with his punishing Jund won SCG open and we had 3 punishing Jund lists in the top 8 (5 jund list in top 32). Here is his list for reference
Creatures
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library
Instants
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
Planeswalkers
4 Liliana of the Veil
Sorceries
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Swamp
Lands
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Engineered Plague
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyroblast
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Duress
The lists were all very similar, though I prefer BBD's inclusion of mindbreak trap in the SB as a concession to combo decks. These lists are very strong and durable and I quite like them a lot. 1 issue is that I think the 4th BBE can be fitted in the mainboard since BBD was making a lot of remarks about boarding it in every game in the deck tech videos.
Thoughts? I'll be looking forward to this version of Jund.
Creature
4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 shaman
4 BBE
1 lavamancer
Planeswalker
3 liliana
1 Domri rade
Spells
3 Hymn
3 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
4 Abrupt
4 Bolt
1 Pulse
2 Sylvan Library
Lands
4 wasteland
3 Badlands
3 bayou
1 taiga
1 forest
1 mountain
1 swamp
9 fetch
Sideboard
1 Golgari charm
1 loam
2 jitte
2 deed
1 ooze
2 pyroblast
2 ancient grudge
3 slaughter games
1 garruk relentless
This is the list I ran for Jupiters NELC. It was my first time playing Jund, and I know some cards (like Domri seem obscure) but I wanted to test it. My results were 4-3-0 which wasn't a complete loss and I had a lot of fun. It did also help me figure out the changes I would make to the build. First I think if I had the chains I ordered in before the tournament I might have had some better match ups. I think I would drop slaugher games 1 grudge for 2 chains and 2 ensnaring bridge. I would drop domri for either a second lavamancer or a 4th liliana (not sure yet on this because both did some great work for me)or even possible main loam. So Domri Rade ok I just couldn't resist trying it out and I cut the 4th liliana for his spot so it didn't really affect my deck to much. Did he help, No but a different PW that could be cascaded into seemed like something to test. There was a couple times he got me an extra creature in hand, I got to use his fight ability once when I needed it but that was about it so no improvment to the deck at least for me.
Round 1
4 color control deck
I was on the play I open with a Duress, forgot what I took I think it was a counterspell. turn 2 Hymn then I continue to rip his hand apart and land BBE into goyf he scoops
G2 I side in blasts but have another great opening hand
1-0
round 2
Eric English with Elves
this guy is a very good player and I actually got to meet him in Rochester the previous week while I was at training for work.
1-1
I honestly think if I had chains and Bridge this match may have gone different. but it was fun. here is his report
"Game 1 he starts off with a deathrite and then proceeds to waste me then lay down a dark confidant. The bob gives him a bunch of lands, allowing him to keep killing my creatures and wasting my cradles. Unfortunately for him he doesn't have anything other than deathrite to really pressure me, so eventually I find a glimpse plus creatures and hoof him. Game 2 was a little harder since I had to fight through both a jitte and a pernicious deed, but all he had for pressure was two deathrites and nothing else. So I went ahead and fetched harmonic sliver to first blow up the jitte. I then used 2 glimpses to mini combo on my turn, going up to over 8 cards in hand and moving to discard before he used the deed. It might have been right for him to have used it sooner, but it didn't really matter since I had a full hand and cradle against his nothing, so I easily won from there." Copy and pasted from His top 8 report because he wrote it exactly how it happened.
round 3 14 post Steve Thomas 1-2-0
yea I know steve we both play at mythic a lot and are friends. So this was an interesting match (well for Steve)
so Game 1 I try to keep up but just don't get the wastelands or anything relevant in time he prime titans into more land into Ulamog
game 2
I thoughtseize a Ostone away but seeKozilek and Ulamog in his hand. so I play a slaughter game on my next turn and name Prime titan thinking that if I can keep him for playing that I might have a chance to catch up but I was not able (Good games steve I'll get you next time)
R4 Elves (dont remember name) 2-2-0
this time I was able to keep him off everything with hand disruption and abrupt
G2 same thing
R5 esperblade 2-3-0
dont remember to much on this I know I won game 1 but 2 and 3 he took over with souls tokens
R6 Burn 3-3-0
I won g1 and 2 playing around Price and sided in jitte to gain some life
R7 Bug
He was a nice guy I dont remember his name though but it was a fun match we knew we were out of the prize pool so just had a relaxed game and test our decks against one another.
I won both games BBE is just so good.
well all in all it was a fun day got to play some Legacy and meet some good people.
I'm curious about inclusion of slaughter games in your sideboard. Have you seen yourself ever using it, or would prefer extirpate or another option? 4cmc is a bit high imo.
This deck loses to Entreat the Angels and Slaughter Games is the only real answer jund has access to.
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