Kokusho kills them, doesn't lock them down. They have a window.
Yosei locks them down, leaving a very small window. If they miss that, death is basically all but assured. It kills slower, but with much more certainty.
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Any combo deck capable of a 1st turn kill doesn't care too much about Yosei, although you have probably already ripped their hand apart when you can Yosei/Kokusho lock them. Burn is another case where kokusho is always better, burn just plays a land, bolts your face and fireblasts you, all without the need of an untap phase.
Sideboard update from the pfire list. I plan on playing this 75 tomorrow at a large tournament.
Main:
4 Grove
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 P. Tower
1 Kessig Wolf-Run
4 Veteran
1 Thrun
3 Huntmaster
1 Thrag
1 Prime Time
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 GSZ
4 Cabal Therapy
2 A. Decay
4 Punishing Fire
2 M. Pulse
1 Nightmare
3 Deed
3 Top
Board:
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Thoughtseize
4 Slaughter Games
3 Surgical/Extirpate
Vs. Tempo:
-4 Cabal Therapy
+ 4 Carpet of Flowers
Vs. Aggro:
none - main has a lot of removal to stall until broodmate/primetime
-could consider bringing in thoughtseizes
Vs. Control:
-4 Veteran
-4 Cabal? (only slots I am not 100% sure to board out in this match up)
+4 Carpet of Flowers
+4 Slaughter Games
Vs.Combo:
-4 Pfire
-1 Thrun
-1 GSZ (unsure about this)
-1 Prime Time
-1 Broodmate
-2 Abrupt Decay
-1 Recuring Nightmare
+4 Thoughseize
+4 Slaughter Games
+3 Surgical/extripate
@lambert101
Can you explain why you're not playing one of the (if not THE) best sideboardcard when playing red: Red Elemental Blast (and/or its brother Pyroblast)?
You should be able to fit at least 2 in (cutting 1 Carpet and 1 Surgical)... depending on your meta cutting 1 thoughtseize might also be possible to add a 3rd blast.
If you ask me REB is just too good to pass.
And do you really need the 2nd Scavening ooze? I'll admit it's a house but haven't run him in quite some time and haven't really missed him. A 2nd Thragtusk is just better.
/barn
The 4/4/4/3 board isn't really where you want to be with Nic Fit IMO. 3 is the highest I go on anything, because I'd rather have more options to be able to better tune my deck to a specific matchup.
I'd trim out 1 Games and 1 Carpet for a pair of REB/Pyro effects, for sure.
I would also consider going -1 Scavenging Ooze, +1 Garruk Relentless; and -1 Nightmare, +1 Inkmoth Nexus. Prime Time grabbing Nexus+Wolf Run seems way too good not to run. I'm very high on Relentless right now -- I'm assuming that the 2nd Ooze is primarily for the Deathrite decks. Relentless is also good against those same decks, but he has a wider range of applications. Nightmare is bad in red lists with no tutoring. It does give you a late-game mana sink, for whenever you randomly draw into it, but I dunno. If you wanted, you could keep Nightmare and not run Relentless...just swap out 2nd Ooze for Inkmoth, but I like the -2/+2 plan better. You just don't have the means to abuse Nightmare -- either the tutors to ensure finding it, or the creatures to loop with it. Broodmate/Tusk/Hunts are all decent options, but that's only 5 cards.
Also, just to clear something up --
I'm not a fan of more than 3 Carpets, mostly because I'm also not a fan of boarding out more than 3 Explorers. I ALWAYS leave one in as a GSZ target. You never know when you'll get mana screwed at 2-lands. You can't Zenith Carpet.
I'd leave a few Therapies in vs control -- it depends a little on the style of control, though. If it's like BUG, then I probably wouldn't bother. But something like Esperblade, for example, you want the interaction to be able to hit their equipment. I personally board very organically -- mostly based off of what I feel is good or bad in a given matchup against a given player. Some Esperblade players are very aggressive, to the point where the deck becomes more aggro/tempo than control. Different cards are bad against these style of players than would be against a more traditional, control Blade player. It's fine to have general ideas (like 3 Carpet for 3 Explorer is a common one vs blue decks), but I wouldn't lock yourself in prematurely. Always be ready to adapt.
@XdeckX
what do I need redblast for in this list? Kill a delver? The only thing it would be good against is jace and that is what s. games is for.
@Arianrhod
i like having the 2 ooze for yard hate. I might try -1 nightmare and +1 relentless, I am mostly using this list because I could not come up with a decent board with scapewish vs combo which I expect there will be a decent amount tomorrow. If you have any secret awesome sauce planned please feel free to share and I might jump on the shift. I am not a big fan of olivia but what are ya going to do, I understand the rationale behind her. I like the pfires as a damage sources and a "sac" enabler for explorer.
Edit: Possible Scapewish Board
3 Thoughseize
3 Extirpate
1 Reanimate
1 Scapeshift
1 Innocent Blood
1 Pyroclasm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Damnation
3 Slaughter Games
I'm actually on Rector tomorrow, mostly for that reason.Like, Scapewish can beat storm passably well if need be, but it isn't a "fun experience." If there's going to be a lot of combo, I'd rather have Nether Void in my 75. I'll be back on Scapewish for Mythic...but Jupiter is just too combo-heavy.
Red Blast is good not for killing Delvers -- but it is good for a few other things:
-) Countering cantrips out of storm (or business if High Tide)
-) Countering Show and Tell
-) Countering/Destroying a resolved Jace (sometimes, they'll get to 4 before you will)
-) Countering Submerge
And so on. It gives you a good coverage against control and combo. Like, you don't need it for Delver itself, too, but it can help.
@Arianrhod
Any other board suggestions? I was also thinking -1 carpet and -1 s. games in board for 2 duress against combo
So much discard, lol.
There's a few options.
There's Mindbreak Trap, Chalice of the Void (drop it on 0), Thorn of Amethyst is technically possible....if you're feeling REALLY CHEEKY you could try Dash Hopes (though most decks won't care about the 5 life hit).
I'd definitely push towards non-discard non-Games means of fighting, though. You need something that's either board-based or stack-based. Like, if opposing combo deck drops Leyline of Sanctity, you still want to have some interaction. I'm not saying that's a likely scenario, but you don't want to just die if they have it. You're also insanely soft to Show and Tell right now, which I do NOT like seeing -- that's one reason I'm pushing as hard for REB as I am for you. Keep in mind that 12post is rapidly becoming a thing at Jupiter, and they are also (technically) a Show and Tell deck. You do not want them Showing a Primeval Titan -- if they do so, you likely die shortly thereafter.
Discard does help vs Show and Tell decks, but 12post runs upwards of 4 Tops and 4 Brainstorms, while Sneak/Show or OmniTell run piles of counters/Misdirection in addition to 4 Brainstorm and some number of Ponder/Preordains. Going all-in on discard is pretty bad, because you just lose to a topdeck -- and they have a lot of manipulation.
Speaking of Duress, which combos/non-interactive decks [i.e. Burn, Dredge] does Duress and Inquisition of Kozilek specifically hate on? I'm running Inq right now for the sole purpose of hating out elves and having something to swap Therapy for against tempo/aggro, but Duress seems like its more useful against ANT, High Tide, and control.
board changes if I understand:
Does this look more grounded? I also appreciate all the help
3 Carpet (tempo and control)
3 S. games (Control and combo?)
3 Surgical/Extirpate effects (commmmbbooooo)
3 Thoughtseize (combo)
3 Pyroblast (BLUE)
For the main am thinking
-1 Nightmare
+ 1 Relentless
or
-1 Nightmare
-1 ooze
-1 huntmaster
+3 lily of the veil
Also about Inkmoth idk what land to cut for it
Yup. I don't think that I would cut a land for it -- your mana ratios are all fine as is right now, although I guess if you decide to add Lily, that borks things a bit.
Sideboard seems fine. You don't really have anything for fair midrange decks, but I think that PFire is probably the most anti-Fair of all the versions, just of its own merits. I'm not sure that you NEED to board anything for fair midrange decks (I'm thinking Junk and Jund, specifically).
Also, don't forget that Carpets can come in vs combo as well. Most combo decks are some degree of blue -- TES being a notable exception. Like if you run into ANT or Show and Tell, bring the Carpets in. Same for vs 12post. Even if they only generate 1 free mana, that 1 mana can get you to a Slaughter Games one turn faster, and that can make ALL the difference.
Inquisition isn't an anti-combo card. It's anti-fair with combo applications. You use Inquisition if you're scared of creature decks, basically. For vs combo, Duress is always better, with Elves! as the lone exception.
I also don't board Therapy out often. I'll shave it sometimes, especially when the Explorers are coming out, but I can't think of a time where I had 0 Therapies in my deck. Even against like RUG I like having them to call Stifle, unless I'm certain that they aren't running it. Goblins gives you a ton of free information -- half the time you can nab whatever they Matron for, to say nothing of Ringleader, so you don't want to board it out there. You don't want to board it out vs Stoneforge aggro (DnT, some Junk, some Maverick). And so on. Just be careful about "swapping" Therapy for IoK. A well-placed Therapy is a dozen times more devastating than a t1 IoK on the play (which is usually when IoK is at its best).
after talking to Steve i made the cut for inkmoth:
Here is the list, Please comment for board suggestions and rationale. Thank you.
Main:
4 Grove
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 P. Tower
1 Kessig Wolf-Run
1 Inkmoth
4 Veteran
1 Thrun
3 Huntmaster
1 Thrag
1 Prime Time
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 GSZ
4 Cabal Therapy
2 A. Decay
4 Punishing Fire
2 M. Pulse
1 Nightmare
3 Deed
3 Top
Board:
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Thoughtseize
3 Slaughter Games
3 Surgical/Extirpate
3 Pyroblast
Agreed, REB is one of the biggest pulls towards playing red. Countering Show and Tell is huge. You should definitely be playing 2-3 copies.
That being said, I definitely disagree about adding the Inkmoth. It's just too cute and completely unnecessary. It's gonna make opening hands way more awkward. Nobody is playing infinite life in competitive Legacy. I have never had any problems killing anybody through regular damage with Wolf Run. Neither will you. Wolf Run and P-Fire do anything you would want a 1/1 flyer to do. Cutting business for a land just increases your chance of flooding out. Even if that land does something. It is only good to tutor with Titan, terrible in almost every other scenario. I would much rather have another business card or GSZ-able creature.
- I agree about Inkmoth Nexus. Not worth it. A 1-of tutor target for a 1-of tutor target that is only good with another 1-of is too cute. I like the Wolf Run though, it seems like a solid mana sink.
- You need a 2 Mana GSZ target. I think Sylvan Ranger is the best, but Sakura-Tribe Elder would work, too, they both have advantages. Tribe Elder is far better vs Dredge, Sylvan Ranger has synergy with Cabal Therapy and Nightmare, and you can keep it around, have both the land and the creature. Either way, you need something that is not Explorer that makes Mana. This comes up quite often.
- rest of the list looks solid.
I like the REBs/Pyros in the SB. At first I was hesitant because there is already Carpet in SB against blue, but Legacy is so blue that 5-7 Anti blue cards won't be too many.
I would also suggest 2 Go for the Throat in the SB. Maybe cut a Slaughter Games. It is great against every tempo deck, and you currently only have two ways to kill a Tombstalker (Pulse) or block it with Broodmate but that is slow.
So how did it go at Jupiter yesterday? Anything under perform?
@Arianrhod - I was checking your list for SB and I noticed to added Master of the Wild Hunt MD. Is that the 61st card? And what purpose does it serve in the deck?
I did some play testing last night with NO and have come to the conclusion if you don't have dryad arbor it becomes very difficult to cast this card when you want. I only had the chance to use it once and I grabbed Sigarda to fight past my opponents removal. I may just need to get use to it but it seems like we would need a seperate package for NO for it to be really effective. But at the same time that's what Green Sun does.
On a side not whoever came up with the idea of using recycle is a genius. This card is broken, all you really need is Top in play or in hand.
Recycle was all Tao's tech. Credit goes to him for that discovery.
I finished 17th at Jupiter yesterday =(
I was 3-1-1 (out of 7 rounds), and if I won out I would have been able to top 8 -- but I got paired down to the new Balustrade/Belcher hermit druid-esque thing and got destroyed...partially because I wasn't entirely sure of how it worked (although I had a rough idea), and partially because, as with its cousin, Belcher, that's a REALLLLLLLLLY bad matchup. So, I went from top 8 contention to hail-mary-for-top16 in one round. Pretty depressing. I still got some interesting stuff to talk about, though -- full report will go up tomorrow, as usual.
Erick (Lambert) ended up not going, and Devin (Siig) had the twin unfortunates of playing against 2 12post decks -and- being talked into taking Innocent Blood out of the wishboard, which I'm pretty sure he's never going to do again, lol.
Devin and I both had feature matches over the course of the day -- I'll try to track them down and post the links for people. Mine was vs RIP Miracles in r2, which is where I picked up my draw. I'm pretty sure that if I had been a little lighter on the gas in game two, I could have taken it down, but I went a hair too deep and got punished for it. We had 7 minutes (4 on clock + 3) for game three, which we both acknowledged was pretty much an impossibility -- especially after I Cranial'd away his Helms, taking away his combo kill.
But yeah. More tomorrow =)
Innocent blood is one of my most wished-for cards. I could never see myself taking it out.
Regarding Kevin and Devin's feature matches:
http://www.twitch.tv/jupitergames/b/363268869
Kevin @ 1h 35m vs miracles.
Devin @ 3h 55m vs BUG
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