sconnell, I accept that there are numerous situations where having Empty in hand can be valuable. It's a tradeoff with more Wishes allowing the mana to function better since you can use LED. And yes I know you win a lot of games without Belcher, so you don't always need 7 mana. My feeling is that the mana boost to a 7+ average is sitting out there at no cost: you don't have to give anything up to receive it.
And the mana boost is not just about having access to 7+ in a regular hand. It is also about having access to 6+ on a mulligan, so that you can still expect to be able to Wish-Empty.
asthereal, the problem I see in potentially cutting a belcher is Miracles. If you are going second, and they have access to a Tundra, a Brainstorm, and there is a Terminus in the top 10 cards of their deck, then your Empty will not do any damage. I realize Miracles is probably a rough matchup anyway, but I don't want to make a sacrifice unless it gives me solid gains elsewhere, and I'm not sure that this does.
Miracles only plays 3x Terminus, and in this case they'd need both in the opening hand, or be very lucky and draw into one or the other. And we can still go for Belcher (3x main, and we can just play the fourth in the side for the MU's we really need it against).
I at least think it's an interesting idea to cut a Belcher. Of course it's our best kill, but it does have the two mentioned disadvantages.
Edit: and before I forget, Miracles has no clock at all, so as long as they don't draw into CounterTop, we have time to recover from a miss from EtW. When they are low on life from some Goblin hits, you can afterwards hit them with a small Tendrils or a perhaps a somewhat larger Grapeshot.
Last edited by Asthereal; 11-29-2012 at 03:19 PM. Reason: Forgot to mention.
4 mana is pretty easy to reach, so Empty is easy to cast - often castable even with an LED sitting in hand that does nothing other than add to storm count. As there are only 4 LED in the deck, I'm not sure if playing Wish because it works better with LED is worth it.Originally Posted by oarsman
Unless you're substituting a strictly superior card in, there's always a cost. When it comes to substituting Seething Song for Chrome Mox, you're giving up an initial mana source (and one which can produce 2 mana over 2 turns.) Substituting Song for Pyretic Ritual is bad in corner cases where you can get to 2 mana but not 3. This doesn't mean it's not worth doing, but I'd be careful suggesting that there's no cost.My feeling is that the mana boost to a 7+ average is sitting out there at no cost: you don't have to give anything up to receive it.
Seething Song is a bit like Chrome Mox in that drawing multiples can be bad - the more Seething Song you have in hand, the more likely it is that you can't get to 3 mana to start casting them. This makes me wonder whether the optimal number of songs is some number less than 4.
This is a really important point - the "per 6" figures are really important, too. "average total mana by turn 2" might also be worth mathing out, to see how often you have 7 mana by turn 2. The calculations would need to be a bit different here, since Chrome Mox/Land Grant/Taiga can produce >1 mana over 2 turns.And the mana boost is not just about having access to 7+ in a regular hand. It is also about having access to 6+ on a mulligan, so that you can still expect to be able to Wish-Empty.
Here's another way of looking at the general point about mana and deck construction.
The majority of mana cards in Belcher only generate one additional mana most (if not all) of the time - Spirit Guides, Land Grant, Taiga, Pyretic/Desperate Ritual, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, Rite of Flame. Some versions play <4 LED and Seething Song, which are +2 mana.
To activate Belcher on turn 1, you need 7 mana.
With Belcher in hand, you only have 6 cards to make 7 mana - which is a problem if most of the cards in your deck only make one mana.
re: cutting Belcher - since the general theme of this discussion is that there are no sacred cows, it's worth at least thinking about. At the end of the day, I think Belcher wins out because it has superior reach and allows turn 1 kills. It also allows you to spread the 7 mana over 2 turns so you can get multiple mana out of a Mox/Taiga.
So happy discussion about this deck is current again. There was a lot of steam a few months ago and it tapered off.
The article is groovy. I don't necessarily agree with everything, but i have trouble counting to 7, so the advanced statistics make my brain melt.
That said, I'm of a mind to stray from the pack when it comes to Belcher, I'm a huge fan of Reforge the Soul. It's not a kill card, but it's pseudo, and I forsake Burning Wish. (True story, I built Belcher because I owned 1 Taiga and 4 Burning Wishes and I wanted to crack into Legacy, now it's my a sparkle in my eye.) Burning Wish to me just screams counter me, or counter what is grabbed. Why have 7 EtW with 4 being conditional, when you can just have 4 EtW straight up. (To get that magical 6 mana instant kill, I copied someone playing 2 Goblin Bushwhacker for EtW tricks.) I find that RtS also gives more life to our LED's rather than just Belcher enablers, float in response.
My second huge stray from the pack, sb like crazy to improve my counterspell matchups. I'm in love with Carpet of Flowers & Mirri's Guile (F'u Jace Fateseal). Demigod of Revenge is better than bad as most folks side out removal unless it's mass. Thrun is a champ, and a Wickerbough Elder just because sometimes somethings gotta get got. Against U/W EtW comes out. Against other decks most likely Belcher get's sided. And if I side out Belchers, def siding in more land, sometimes I do that anyway.
While I read the article, I don't understand why Chrome Mox isn't favored. I'd rather 4 Mox and less Seething Song, as that screams to get countered too and usually takes ramping to get to. In my list, I also dropped Tinder Wall, a few times I was screwed for playing it before combo'ing out, felt less than ideal. Sometimes it's the suck, but I don't find it to be terribly too often. By that point, something is wrong because the game isn't over in the first 6 turns, extra chrome mox or not.
Enough rambling, I was inspired by Vacrix too, he get's props(/slops) for this decklist in absentia
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
2 Seething Song
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Rite of Flame
4 Land Grant
4 Empty the Warrens
3 Reforge the Soul
1 Taiga
4 Street Wraith
SB: 4 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Mirri's Guile
SB: 4 Demigod of Revenge
SB: 1 Taiga
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 Wickerbough Elder
I will say that I just exchanged Street Wraith for Manamorphose. The article made a light go off- why the hell am I playing Manamorphose? I'm not color fixing, looking to set up Tendrils or Diminishing Wishes so... And spending two mana for a counterable cantrip storm enhancer isn't worth it. The two life for Street Wraith... well, I was gonna die to an aggressive deck anyway if I didn't combo, so what's the difference?
Cheers,
Glass Cannon goes BOOM!
Goblin Bushwhacker should not make the cut and in my view, is a wasted spot in a deck that is already tight for precious space. It is not tier one card, in this deck or otherwise. There are so many other more viable cards for this deck right now. For example, look at any GP or SCG Belcher decks that have top 16; Bushwhacker is conspicuously absent in all those deck lists and I would submit for very good reason. I am sure a person could come up with tangible arguments for its inclusion; however, the fact remains that the cons manifestly out way to pros when it comes to this card in this deck.
Furthermore, I strongly believe that three (3) Reforge the Soul is too many; you may seriously want to consider reducing the number of same.
To be the man, you gotta beat the man!
I played this list at SCG LA yesterday, finished 17th out of 266.
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Land Grant
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
1 Taiga
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
1 Pyretic Ritual
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
3 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Goblin Charbelcher
Sideboard:
4 Autumn's Veil
4 Carpet of Flowers
1 Forest
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
Wishboard:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
---
Here's a quick summary of what I faced and how I fared
Round 1 - Merfolk - (Won 2-0)
Round 2 - U/W Helm/RIP Combo - (Won 2-1)
Round 3 - Omniscience - (Won 2-1)
Round 4 - BUG (Lost 0-2)
Round 5 - Death and Taxes (Won 2-1)
Round 6 - B/R/W Zombies (Won 2-1)
Round 7 - Sneak/Show (Won 2-1)
Round 8 - Aggro Loam (Lost 0-2)
Round 9 - Deadguy Ale (ID to assure mutual top 32)
After 7 rounds I was 6-1-0 in matches and looking for my win-and-in. In Round 8 I was paired up against my friend Tony DeVeyra, playing aggro loam. We discussed an ID and I decided I wanted to play it out, since Belcher is favored in the match. Tony won the die roll and I took a mulligan to 6 (no win conditions in my opening 7). He leads with T1 Deathrite Shaman, pass. I go LG -> Taiga, Chrome Mox imprinting SSG, Chrome Mox imprinting ESG, Lotus Petal, play Charbelcher. Seems good, right? Tony responds on his turn by Wastelanding my Taiga, getting a mana from it with the shaman, and blowing up both of my Chrome Moxes with an EE for 0. Seems bad, right? Next turn he pulses my Belcher and I'm too far behind to recover. Game 2 I punted by holding back a Chrome Mox when I was storming for Goblins. I anticipated him blowing up my Goblins, so I wanted the Chrome Mox for a future attack, but his Deathrite Shamans seriously swung the match in his favor - block a goblin and gain 2 life negates 3 attacking goblins each turn, and if I had played out the Chrome Mox (with nothing to imprint upon it) I would have done exactly the 4 extra damage needed to kill him. I learned the hard way just how good that shaman is.
I'm very disappointed that I missed out on the Top 8, but at least I lost to a friend who knows and plays his deck well and not to some scrub sporting the RUG/BUG Delver flavor-of-the-week garbage that these events are rife with. My other loss was to Jack Fogle in Round 4, who ended up winning the whole event.
Some other memorable plays of the day:
Round 2 vs. U/W RIP/Helm combo - Game 3 I make a bunch of Goblins and she Detention Spheres them after taking a bunch of damage. I have Forest, Taiga in play, and my next two topdecks are Carpet of Flowers followed by Belcher. Better to be lucky than good!
Round 3 vs. Omniscience - Game 2 I lose to triple thoughtseize with force of will backup. Game 3 I decide to keep a hand with no win conditions because, well, they're just gonna get thoughtseized anyway. Slow rolled him with ESG/SSG beats and win off a late ETW for 6.
---
Some comments about the direction this thread has taken, and my sideboard choices:
- Joe, thank you for writing that article on Belcher. My first experience playing this deck was at a Knight Ware event that I showed up to hungover and deckless. I borrowed Ben Perry's and had a blast. I hadn't thought too much about changing the maindeck except for the addition of Probes (when NPH was printed) and a brief stint with Reforge the Soul last summer (which by the way, is total garbage; even as a Wish target, Diminishing Returns is better). Your article is thought-provoking and convinced me to drop one win condition from the standard 11 in the wish build; as you can see my maindeck above is -1 Burning Wish and +1 Pyretic Ritual. In my experience yesterday, there was no point at which I wished the Pyretic Ritual was a Burning Wish, and I didn't see any triple-win-condition auto-mulligan hands like I sometimes do with 11 in the deck.
- I disagree strongly about cutting Chrome Moxes; if you're gonna cut any at all, play no less than 3. The deck absolutely needs permanent mana sources to beat blue decks in games 2 and 3, and Chrome Mox is one of our best (i.e. it doesn't die to Wasteland).
- By the way, I implore all of you playing a Taiga or Bayou or whatever other duals you're playing in the board to switch to a basic forest. It is invincible (i.e. un-wastelandable) and has won me more games than any sideboard card besides the 4th ETW.
- 3 or 4 is the correct number of Carpet of Flowers to play in the board, depending on the matchups you expect. I wouldn't bring more than 3 in against Show and Tell decks or Canadian Thresh, because they operate on so few Islands and you need to beat them fast. Yesterday I never brought in all 4, but I would definitely want all 4 against U/W Miracles.
- Veil is disgustingly good but I have yet to board in all 4, so maybe one could be cut to free up a sideboard slot.
- Sylvan Library is also awesome and helps you recover from getting Thoughtseized on T1 or Hymned on T2. A lot of the time, Belcher can lose to B/X discard decks on the basis of the die roll, and Library gives you some serious recovery power. I was going to play two in the board but Jacob Kory convinced me to switch one to a Mirri's Guile at the last second. Guile was also good, and the difference in mana cost is relevant. I might try cutting a Veil to get the second Sylvan Library back in the board, because nothing matches it in terms of raw card drawing power within our colors.
- About the man-plan: it seems interesting, but none of the creatures people run in the sideboard impress me all that much. How exactly are we supposed to take advantage of Demigod's CIP ability if we can't reliably get all the Demigods in the graveyard? T1 Seething Song out Demigod is pretty weak, when you could just be winning the game on T1. One card that interests me for a man-plan is Hidden Gibbons. Anybody thought about that?
That's all for now folks, thanks for reading.
@adamliniscus: Major congrats on your finish.
The man-plan is strictly for U-control type decks. Not sure I'd bother bringing in guys against RUG/BUG, just Guile's and Carpets. At the SCG Baltimore event, the man plan almost got there with a turn 1 Demigod against UW Miracles. An unexpected sword (reserved for Xanthid Swarm) saved him the game, then Jace landed and sad face. Demigod is the biggest recursive threat that didn't die to Bolt, and makes counters less effective. True there's no Buried Alive effect to cheat them in but the red casting cost, and quick clock I found effective. Wickerbough more for utility, and Thrun because I can only play 4 Demigod.
@Demonic_Attorney: I feel you on the Bushwhacker. It's a win more card, as getting to six mana with 5 cards (or 6 on the draw) isn't always doable for a cute trick. I did get the idea for it from a decklist that either won or high topped some while back, prolly in Europe as the council was my source. In my experience, it gets tossed to chrome mox more often than not. However, it does change the math, and it's easy enough with a permanent mana source and something else to hit two red to cast a turn after gobo's are in play to swing in your favor. As a two of, not sure what I'd replace with, prolly seething song or manamorphose.
In regards to RtS, not sure I agree with you. Maybe in the instance that going to 10 wincons is better than 11, and RtS isn't a real wincon anyway, I'm not sad to see them in my hand. They don't always fire, but it get's there more often than fizzling.
My meta in the Northeast has a lot of blue control. Getting spells countered is a frequent thing, having the ability to reload (RtS) has proved important, and being able to change strategies has also proved beneficial. If I were playing against more fair decks, I'd tend to like the Burning Wish solution better.
For those that are still pushing belcher, best of luck to you, I have set my belcher deck aside & I am no longer pushing it, unfortunately for belcher, my local metagames just have more blue than anything else, so I can't really push it there but once in a great while just as a surprise factor when most everyone doesn't expect it, at bigger events I did let a friend borrow Belcher for the Los Angeles Open last week, but they only walked out with a 4 win 5 loss record, saying they kept running into people with force of will's as well.
In either case, this deck was the hardest of all the decks I've let go recently because it's my first real legacy / type 1.5 deck, since I've basically had some version of a belcher deck, all the way back when it used to be 2 land belcher before it became what it is now. So for those still playing it, good luck out there and keep throwing people for a loop when they don't see it coming!
In belcher's defense at bigger tourneys however, it did get 10th in Las Vegas!
Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
Wow it only took 3-4 years for Belcher players to catch on to Carpet of Flowers tech at an SCG. I'd actually prefer the 2nd library to Guile. Guile is better if you want to play Reforge the Soul since you rearrange the cards in the upkeep while Library works out of the draw phase. Forest is definitely a strong SB choice I can get behind. If you want to cast Carpet, Veil, ie. your entire sideboard, you need that basic forest in there to ensure you the perp.
How often were Tendrils/IT used out of the board? My guess is not a single time. I'd probably use those slots for something like Shatterstorm/Reverent Silence.
The list looks good though. I can agree on 10 vs. 11 win conditions being a good configuration.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
Since you showed me that sideboard earlier this year, I've been encouraging local players to run it. So far, it seems that your message channeled through me has worked. Let's keep it up!
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
Good shit dude. Lets keep the channel rolling.
Its about time Belcher players actually cared about their sideboards. You only REALLY need Burning Wish for Empty the Warrens. The other 14 slots are contested. I think this board config will probably be standard sideboard tech pretty soon:
Sideboard:
4 Autumn's Veil
4 Carpet of Flowers
1 Forest
2 Sylvan Library
Wishboard:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Shattering Spree
1 Reverent Silence
Reverent Silence/Grapeshot/Shattering Spree makes sense because then you can deal with every type of hate. The 11 cards is roughly around how many cards Belcher wants to board in; You don't want to dilute your deck too much. 4 Carpets come in to replace Seething Song as acceleration. Forest/Library/Veils come in to replace cyclers.
Another card to look at is Lotus Bloom. If you wait to go off, you can do crazy things with Autumn's Veil... or you can play around soft permission with the rest of your mana sources.. then Black Lotus resolves and you win. It might even be better than Carpet of Flowers given that Belcher wants to run Veil post-board.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
How often are you using grapeshot to clear out hatebears? Several other cards like pyroclasm, chain lightning, or cave-in seem better.
Perhaps because Grapeshot also functions as reach and can clear the way for your tokens if your opponent has a team to block them. You could easily play Pyroclasm in that slot but then you'd lose the reach and when you play it.. you blow up all your own tokens. The other options you mentioned are probably just as good though considering the wishboard is rarely used anyway. But having the reach option to get the last few points of damage or getting rid of a team open you up to the possibility of actually using wish for more than just EtW.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
I have been testing the proactive sb and I am in love. This is my current build, it has been doing really well. I do not like manamorphose, it makes for some awkward hands and can be a huge tempo blowout when it is countered. As for gitaxian probe and Street Wraith, I find all of the cantrips unnecessary and they make mulliganing difficult. I opted for more redundancy in pyretic ritual and grim monolith, which has been working well. It shines game 1 vs control because it can be cast and saved unlike other rituals and you can use your LEDs to untap it when you are in topdeck mode, which is huge.
Artifacts: 20
4x Chrome Mox
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Grim Monolith
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
Creatures: 12
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Tinder Wall
Instants: 12
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Seething Song
Land: 1
1x Taiga
Sorceries: 15
4x Burning Wish
3x Empty the Warrens
4x Land Grant
4x Rite of Flame
Side Board:
3x Carpet of Flowers
1x Empty the Warrens
4x Guttural Response
2x Pyroblast
2x Noxious Revival
1x Pyroclasm
1x Reverent Silence
1x Shattering Spree
Last edited by Buckjunt; 02-04-2013 at 10:00 AM.
Belcher in the finals against Jund, go belcher!
Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
I play more or less the same MD, but I go back and forth on Grim Monolith and Chancellor of the Tangle in the MD. If you're playing in the post Jund metagame, you have to SB Leyline of Sanctity in order to have a positive win percentage vs discard strategies. The utility wish targets really aren't worth their weight, if you have to answer your opponent's permanents you've already lost more often than not. A card that I think may have some promise in the SB is Chancellor of the Annex, just for its ability to "counter" Force of Will on the play, Spell Pierce on the draw, Thoughtseize etc. on the draw and Chalice of the Void on the draw. The problem with Red Elemental Blast is that it's often too resource intensive in order to both cast and protect your threat.
I prefer Reforge the Soul against discard strategies. It's higher variance, but doesn't interfere with your mulligans as much. It's Wishable too, so it provides some utility as an Engine.
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
who did finally take the prize???
Can get your lists? I may test chancellor of the tangle as a 1 of, but it seems like the worst thing to topdeck but it is another win condition and it can't be hit by spell pierce. As for the 2 white spells mentioned, if I ever topdeck them, I can almost never cast them. Reforge may find its way into the sb, though wishing for it seems awkward because against blue or game 1 turn 1 if I got the wish off, I am going for the kill because if they couldn't counter wish, I don't want to give them the chance to stop me just to bump my storm count. I can see the logic in using it against discard as a non-wish side option, but wouldn't regrowth serve the same purpose without the possible setbacks of refueling my opponent's hand? Even noxious revival could serve this purpose, at the trade off of not being a wish target, but being free.
Jund, on the back of Thoughtsieze Game 1 and Duress Game 3
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