Let's not forget Craterhoof-- their typical play. Haste and +x/+x gives you no time at all.
Id still play charm even with souls. In the cases you want that mode it's probably going to profit on your side. I play deed for this reason.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
I've been thinking about this for a while as well, and the best solution I've found is running Ensnaring Bridge in the board. We can still finish the game with Souls and Deathrites with Bridge in play. Against Elves, it turns off all of their finishers (we'll still die after a glimpse turn, though). It should work well against Emrakul and Griselbrand decks, and even Reanimator. I've never actually played the card, since I didn't face any relevant opponents when I ran these in the board, but it looks good on paper.Originally Posted by sdematt
On paper, I agree, but don't they have that random Elf in their deck that blows up artifacts?
-Matt
Oh balls, Chains of Mephistopheles also hurts their Glimpse turn. Derp. Totally forgot about that as well.
-Matt
Annnd this deck just jumped about 200 bucks to make
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
If you're gonna try NO/Prog, then I'd suggest including Dryad Arbor in the main. Not sure if that was obvious or not, but it came up in the Nic Fit thread a few pages back.Natural Order right now seems very good as a ballbreaking midrange play. Think for a second: how does one race Progenitus in this format?
What do you bring this in against though? Jund with Liliana (though you likely have Souls out I guess)? Miracles with Terminus? Elves who Crater you to death? I like the idea of Ensnaring Bridge better, where at least you have a package to use against Sneak and Show for the decks that are dropping Knight.
Don't forget, we're running white. If you start the Ensaring Bridge train, build a tutor sideboard that banks on Enlightened Tutor. Then you can bring in Cursed Scroll, which kills everything in Jund. ('cept Goyf)
They do, actually, and they could blow it up with one of their tutors and bounce it over and over to kill any Bridges that might come up. We'll have to kill the Symbiotes. That's definitely the hard part. And they could still just run us over with weenies with Bridge in play. I don't know if we can do that reliably without Stoneforge/Jitte, in which case they would probably blow up the Jitte. It will work better if they're on the NO plan though, like when you hit a glimpse off discard and kill their first few dudes forcing them to go NO. They'll still have 7 outs (4 GSZ, 2 NO and one Viridian Shaman) which is quite a lot for a "trump card" SB slot. :/ Then again, they also have to deal with the E.Plagues that we run. The combination of both cards against them might be good enough.
Golgari charm. Fucks their dudes, they have almost no way to deal with it. Yes, plague does create a permanently hostile environment, but it can be dealt with as said earlier, and, depending on how fast they go off, may be a turn too late.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
Oh wow. That's right. Golgari Charm would work. Zealous Persecution, too.
Claymore, I was talking about how good it was to run in general, not specifically for us. It seems like a good Combo in this meta.
Gotta love how Chains jumped since it's played as a 1-2 of in the sideboard of a single Jund deck. Cool story.
-Matt
I'm going to cave pretty soon, buckle down, and just get Goyfs. Probably not until next month, but I think they're necessary at this point. I'm going to fiddle around for a little while longer with Stoneforges, but looking at Matt's list earlier, just looking at the list makes it super clear to me how necessary Goyfs are. It just looks more flexible and better equipped to handle whatever the fuck compared to my list right now. The only thing I would probably change is to just drop Lingering Souls all together, put Goyf up to 4, Thoughtseize up to 3, and add a Gaddock Teeg maindeck. Which opens up a sideboard slot.
Here's the list I'll be running by the end of next month: I may make Hymn's cabal therapies, since I'm quite good with them and Dryad Arbor is 85% of the time what I sac to it anyways.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sylvan Library
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
// Sideboard:
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Pithing Needle
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Duress
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Ulvenwald Tracker
Ah, I gotcha. It does seem pretty good in general to catch decks off guard. I'm also feeling pretty good about grabbing up a $30 Chains a few months ago when starcity crashed the market with their sale, haha. Too bad its Italian :/.
Wanted to back to:
I
I feel 5-6 discard is correct. The discard still has uses as preemptive removal, and with the next tournament you will be more prepared to combat an influx of combo decks that attempt to take advantage of a mid-range venue. In any case, for this build I would rather run discard over Sinkholes main board. Sideboard is a different and very interesting story...but for the main board, I agree with whoever said that junk is focused on an overall answer box versus a sole line of attack.Thoughts only for my non-Combo-Meta: Is Discard viable at all? Less than 5 cards seems to be bad, but the 5 cards did not impress me either. Would it be viable to force the Manadenial, playing Sinkhole Main? What to cut?
I will swap Tracker into the Main for Teeg, as he underperformed hard. Also i was not really impressed by my Sideboard. Plagues and Souls did their job, rest was pretty useless.
Kich, with the zero therapy fodder I would rather run Inquisitions or Duress over Hymn unless you expect the meta to have zero combo, with Hymns in the sideboard. Most of the decks posted in here split thoughtseize and inquisition since targeted turn 1 discard is so important to our counterless interaction. Coming from nic fit myself, Therapy is definitely awesome, but we can't afford to sack anything but Arbor (once). Best case scenario is you turn 1 drs, turn two therapy, fetch arbor, flashback, and lose no tempo due to drs...not sure how often that will go off though, especially since you give up your turn 1 discard.
I'd personally try to make room for Lilly, even as a 2-of. That said, that's always my opion regarding Junk lists.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
Couple of thoughts on my mind:
1) Getting some Golgari Charms for my sideboard, because I run zero lingering souls. I'm thinking two in the board, and swapping out the Engineered Plague/something else for it.
2) I have seen some folks talking about Ensnaring Bridge and I *almost* took it as sideboard tech to my local tournament recently...but I don't like how it hoses Goyfs and Knights. I rely on the targeted removal, Deeds, and Eternal Witness/Volrath's Stronghold tech for battling opposing fatties (except Emrakul and Progenitus) I think Oblivion Ring, or even Angel of Despair, is better tech against Show and Tell. For elves? I think Engineered Explosives needs a mention, and as I stated earlier I'm looking into Golgari Charm.
3) What do folks think is the best Storm hate? I'm currently running two Ethersworn Canonists (and 1x Enlightened Tutor) in my sideboard. Is this good enough, considering maindeck 5 targeted discards, 2x Sculler, 2x Hymn, 2x Liliana, and 3x Surgical Extraction in the sideboard? It sure seems like enough hate for combo, in general, but I'd be curious what others think. I'm definately playing a strong hand-disruption strategy.
4) Natural Order is on my purchase list!!! I want that for my deck, and I want it bad! I'll probably play 4x Natural Order in my sideboard along with Progenitus (which I already have) I absolutely love it, possibly enough for maindeck inclusion.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Good points on Ensnaring... I'm going to try out a tutor board, but will have to see just how the Bridge fits in. I see it more as an emergency stop gap, and you can still ping from behind it with Deathrite.
Along with Bridge I am going to test
2-3x E Tutor
1x Chains (Combo)
1x E Plague (gobs, elves, spirit tokens)
1x Cursed Scroll (Jund)
1x Ensnaring Bridge
Anything else of interest? Haven't fleshed out the rest of the board but some mix of Deed, Hymns, Teeg, Leyline of Sanctity, Golgari Charm, Surgical seems to be in order... Too many options.
If I simply merge my former sideboard with new developments and cut Garruk, Virtue's Ruin, and Tracker (effectively replaced by Cursed Scroll), I get this 20 card sideboard:
Tutor Enabler
2 Enlightened Tutor
Aggro/Swarm Combo
2 Pernicious Deed (Tutor)
2 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague (Tutor)
1 Ensnaring Bridge (Tutor)
Graveyard Combo
3 Surgical Extraction
Combo/Control
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gaddock Teeg (GSZ Tutor)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles (Tutor)
Attrition
1 Cursed Scroll (Jund) (Tutor)
Burn
2 Timely Reinforcements
Timely Reinforcements seems a little meh due to it not saving me against Burn once...plus being very weak to Skull Crack. I almost want Leyline of Sanctity there instead, but being less than 4 and having a high CC is troublesome. Perhaps Spike Feeder so I can fetch it with GSZ.
Cursed Scroll looks odd, but is my proposed, untested swing card against Jund - assuming I get value before it gets Decayed. Kills a small Liliana, Bob, DRS, and BBE.
Chains is similarly untested, but evidently was enough for Jund to put it to use at x1-2. Enlightened Tutor lets us find it very quickly, along with Bob and Sylvan Library.
Will think on what to cut as I'm cooking/eating dinner, haha.
Last edited by Claymore; 02-05-2013 at 08:36 PM. Reason: more thoughts
What will Cursed Scroll bring to your game? I have found that Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library, both excelling at feeding you the removal you need, are a better game plan. Junk can't really pull off Pox, even with Liliana in the deck. Better to rely on card quality/advantage and simply outplay Jund.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Why does Rock need Cursed Scroll against Jund? I thought Jund was a good match up? At least that's what Jund people say.
The same reason Punishing Jund plays Punishing Fire - repeated removal. If Jund starts to get big, which is likely considering Punishing Jund placed 3 out of top 4 at SCG Atlanta, then I can see Scroll as our own answer to Fire.
Why play fair? Cursed Scroll is far too fair. I think a better option exists, and one I'm personally going to work on using: Natural Order + Progenitus. Think about it for a few minutes, and then ask yourself: 'Why would I play a bad Punishing/Grove, or in other words a strictly worse Grim Lavamancer, when I could instead play combo and put them on a two turn clock?'
For me, the answer is pretty simple. Dryad Arbor and Deathrite Shaman, both fetchable by GSZ, allow NO-Pro to be an alternative angle for this deck, and one that doesn't play fair.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Jarad's Order --> Loyal Retainer + Something awesome; Iono, Elesh Norn.. Etc...---> I win possibly turn 3 if you run mox or deathrite..
Just a thought Haha
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