[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[Qweerios]

@ Qweerios I use 2 Extirpate, 2 Nihil Spellbomb, I see SB with nihil spellbomb or Tormods crypt. What is the advantage of spellbomb? The extra card draw. It does cost more mana. Crypt would be on the table faster?
I thought about it but cannot figure it out so I value your opinion.

Nihil is all-around better for its cantrip effect. When playing against other GY dependant decks such as Dredge, Loam, Lands, RUG (if it was relevant), or even Esperblade, there is a lot of value to be had out of exiling a GY at the sole cost of 1B. As far as exiling an entire GY goes, both Tormod and Nihil enable that effect on turn 1. If you are having issues mainly with Reanimator, Tormod's Crypt has its perks because it dodges daze on the draw (most likely in G3). If Mental Misstep was legal, I would probably advocate Crypt > Spellbomb but as it is now, the vulnerability of Spellbomb in that particular matchup is insignificant compared to the benefits of drawing a card in a wider spectrum.

***EDIT: First!

[TerribleTim68]

...***EDIT: First!

You mean, Three thousand nine hundred and eighty first.

[Megadeus]

Surgical effects are just overall not powerful enough at the moment. Not in this meta anyway

[Remy]

Surgical effects are just overall not powerful enough at the moment. Not in this meta anyway

I've actually found them to be devastatingly efficient. Most decks run so few 'true' threats that even removing all copies of tarmo or jace from a deck can completely cripple them for awhile. Then again I've been using extirpate in my current Goblins build, so perhaps that's only with the added pressure of fast aggro on the board, but still.

But on a side note, I had ended up looking into this deck some 6 months ago, and am VERY interested in making one. It looks like an absolute blast to pilot. Do we have any current 'core cards' list for the GBw and scapeshift variants? Or do I need to just take some time and muscle my way through the pages

Thanks in advance, and kudos to designers of this monster and thanks for all the work you've put in to the primer

[ZimAshe]

I've actually found them to be devastatingly efficient. Most decks run so few 'true' threats that even removing all copies of tarmo or jace from a deck can completely cripple them for awhile. Then again I've been using extirpate in my current Goblins build, so perhaps that's only with the added pressure of fast aggro on the board, but still.

But on a side note, I had ended up looking into this deck some 6 months ago, and am VERY interested in making one. It looks like an absolute blast to pilot. Do we have any current 'core cards' list for the GBw and scapeshift variants? Or do I need to just take some time and muscle my way through the pages

Thanks in advance, and kudos to designers of this monster and thanks for all the work you've put in to the primer

This is hte list I've been using to some success.

Junk Nic Fit (GWB Explorer)


Creatures:
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Wall of Blossoms
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Fierce Empath
2x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Thragtusk
1x Grave Titan
1x Sun Titan

Spells:
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Skeletal Scrying
4x SwordS to Plowshares
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Vindicate

Lands:
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
1x Phyrexian Tower


I personally like skeletal scrying but it can easily be taken out to add the third Pernicious Deed

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I've actually found them to be devastatingly efficient. Most decks run so few 'true' threats that even removing all copies of tarmo or jace from a deck can completely cripple them for awhile. Then again I've been using extirpate in my current Goblins build, so perhaps that's only with the added pressure of fast aggro on the board, but still.

But on a side note, I had ended up looking into this deck some 6 months ago, and am VERY interested in making one. It looks like an absolute blast to pilot. Do we have any current 'core cards' list for the GBw and scapeshift variants? Or do I need to just take some time and muscle my way through the pages

Thanks in advance, and kudos to designers of this monster and thanks for all the work you've put in to the primer

The heart and soul of any Nic Fit is as follows:

4x Veteran Explorer
4x Cabal Therapy

From there, you have the lesser staples: things that you may not need a full playset of but are nice to have:

2-4x Green Sun's Zenith
2-4x Pernicious Deed
3x [0x] Sensei's Divining Top [0 is just fine if running 4x Brainstorm]
1-3x Eternal Witness

Then there's the matter of a recursion engine, which most Nic Fit lists tend to run to great success:

1x Phyrexian Tower [+] 1x Volrath's Stronghold [Tutorable via GSZ into PrimeTime]
1x Recurring Nightmare

Some GSZ targets would be nice, but there's a megaton of options here, so just let me just say that, because of Deed, you'll want all your bomby creatures to be CMC=>4 for the most part. The exception to this is Scavenging Ooze, since while he can be bomby, he has great utility in omnoming yards. Also, utility creatures, especially manadorks, are expendable.

Now that's out of the way, time for additional control elements.

Maelstrom Pulse [Good against Planeswalkers, Tokens, high CMC creatures, enchantments, and artifacts]
Abrupt Decay [Good for spot removal and punching through Counterbalance/Chalice of the Void/Force of Will/etc.]
Krosan Grip [Good in conjunction with Abrupt Decay]
Damnation/Innocent Blood/Diabolic Edict [Same function, different perks: all can get rid of Iona on Green [which severely cripples Nic Fit tbh], Progenitus, and Emrakul. Damnation acts as another sweeper, IB acts as another cheap sac-outlet for Vet, and Edict has instant speed in case they Omni/Sneak any of them in.]

And that's about all I can chime in on: best to wait for someone with more experience though ^_^

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

2-4x Green Sun's Zenith

This is a 4-of. Any less is 100 percent wrong.

[Viridia]

This is a 4-of. Any less is 100 percent wrong.

I haven't played it as a 4-off for a long time, only sporting 4 in my Junk-like list now, often my BUG lists don't even run it at all, because it's very Planeswalker heavy and doesnt need the green utility creatures.

[Qweerios]

I have to agree with RandomGestures that any less than 4GSZ is a mistake. Nic Fit's goal is to pop an explorer, and GSZ provides copies #5-8 with added benefits. Just like any respectable Delver decks, they need their 4 Brainstorms and 4 Ponders to be successful. I have played PW heavy lists in the past with as few as 9 creatures and the 4 GSZ have never left the main. I would go as far as to say that even more so in these lists that the 4 GSZs are crucial considering how you tend to clog your hands with 3-5 CMC PWs and relatively slow removal.

If I could only pack 7 Explorers in a deck, I would cut the 4th Explorer before the 4th GSZ without the shadow of a doubt.

[HoneyT]

I'm sorry, but by someone with more experience, I mean someone who actually plays the deck, not someone who bashes a successful list.

From HoneyT's GPT Report - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...oln-NE-12-1-12

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS was my round 3 opponent in that tournament. He's also my roommate. Being my roommate, he knows a thing or two about the deck and is correct in his assessment that 4 GSZ is absolutely correct for exactly the reasons Qweerios stated. (I happened to run 4 in that particular list anyway) His comments on that report were in good jest.

On another note for ZimAshe:

You really should play the 3rd Deed and the 3rd Top. I would cut the Scrying and the second Thrun. You really don't need two. Ever. You could also cut one of the Artifact/Enchantment kill effects. Probably Wickerbough. Pridemage should be enough.

[Arianrhod]

I've actually found them to be devastatingly efficient. Most decks run so few 'true' threats that even removing all copies of tarmo or jace from a deck can completely cripple them for awhile. Then again I've been using extirpate in my current Goblins build, so perhaps that's only with the added pressure of fast aggro on the board, but still.

But on a side note, I had ended up looking into this deck some 6 months ago, and am VERY interested in making one. It looks like an absolute blast to pilot. Do we have any current 'core cards' list for the GBw and scapeshift variants? Or do I need to just take some time and muscle my way through the pages

Thanks in advance, and kudos to designers of this monster and thanks for all the work you've put in to the primer

Wooo page 200!

Now, for comments on this --- ELC's got it pretty much right, but I'm going to give my perspective on the various versions' staples.

ALL Nic Fit, and I mean ALL, starts with the following:

4 Veteran
1 Eternal Witness
4 Therapy
3 Deed

3 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower

These are immutable truths. Every single Nic Fit list should run these cards. Someeeeeeeetimes you can get away with shaving a Deed if you have access to other sweepers maindeck (usually in blue versions), but Deed is just so critical that I don't know if that's correct even with Damnations or blue manipulation.

Most versions run Green Sun's Zenith. I personally run 3 in Rector, because of the large quantity of white creatures in the deck that cannot be Zenithed, but the next slot that I open up in the deck will be going to the 4th Green Sun. I -have- been wanting it for a while now...I just need to figure out what I want to cut. I also need to get my 4th jap foil so that they all match -.-

Scapewish runs 4, and I would recommend every non-blue version run 4. Blue versions are weird. The Jace-control varieties want GSZ, whereas Chronos for sure doesn't want it, and Future Fit is conflicted on the issue. I've been in a tuning cycle, so I haven't been working on the blue versions as much as Rector and Scapewish lately. For now, I'd recommend that you steer clear of the blue lists, while we work on hammering them out better.

Most Nic Fit lists run some kind of backup ramp dude, usually one that's one-sided -- I favor Sakura-Tribe Elder, while Tao prefers Sylvan Ranger. Others use Viridian Emissary. The choice between them largely comes down to the style of your deck. Sakura-Tribe provides an easy way to get a dude into the graveyard for Recurring Nightmare shenanigans, and it's also guaranteed ramp that doesn't involve needing to die to trigger. At the same time, it does have the drawback that you can't ramp -and- use it for Therapy, which can be relevant.

Then you have the recursion engine. A lot of lists add a 2nd Eternal Witness, and then it's usually split down the middle between Volrath's Stronghold or Recurring Nightmare. Rector prefers Nightmare for obvious reasons (tutorable), while G/B does the same with Stronghold (Primeval Titan). I personally don't run either in Scapewish, but some favor Stronghold for that list.

Aside from that....most of the rest of the space is filled up by your win conditions and your engine packages. If you opt to not run an engine, then you just put in more discard and removal, and season to taste.

I'll clarify.

I've come to realize that there are two basic "styles" of Nic Fit decks, on a base level: those with gimmicks, and those without. A gimmick can be defined as an extra engine that makes the deck -do- something, aside from just ramp and play big fat fatties while controlling the board state. Scapewish and Rector are both gimmick lists, as Scapewish has Burning Wish and Rector has...well...Rectors. At the same time, there are straight Jund and straight Junk lists of Nic Fit that don't run a gimmick, but play more like a Big Jund or a Big Junk, with relation to their smaller siblings (which do not run Explorer). Same with Jace Nic Fit as compared to something like Future Fit.

So....basically you've got a short list (per above) of the core staples that each version shares. Then you've got some thinking and deciding to do -- what splash color do you want, if any, and then what gimmick do you want, if any. Then we can give you more specific advice from there.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS was my round 3 opponent in that tournament. He's also my roommate. Being my roommate, he knows a thing or two about the deck and is correct in his assessment that 4 GSZ is absolutely correct for exactly the reasons Qweerios stated. (I happened to run 4 in that particular list anyway) His comments on that report were in good jest.

My bad: I felt like I was being challenged on that particular subject since I've dropped to 3x GSZ a long time ago in BUG Nic Fit, and, after some unnecessary investigation, I came to the wrong conclusion about Random Gestures.

@ Random Gestures: I'm sorry, and this time there is no sarcasm.

Anyhow, the reason why I don't run 4x GSZ is because, strangely enough, is that they're too consistent. And by that I mean, if you're stuck in a position where you have to spin Top, crack Fetches, and play an empty GSZ for an answer, the last thing you want is to brick on that GSZ. 3x seems like a good number for me, as any crucial GSZ targets are already in at 2x or 4x anyway.

[Kich867]

I'm trying to nuke out the perks of going Junk-Fit over straight G/B.

A small list would be:
Sigarda
Sun Titan
Qasali Pridemage
Gaddock Teeg

Are there any others? Would you bother running swords in Junk-Fit (not rector, just junk-fit)?

Off the top of my head this would be something my list looks like:

//Creatures: 15
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Fierce Empath
1x Eternal Witness
2x Thragtusk
1x Wolfir Silverheart
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Sun Titan
1x Grave Titan

// Spells and Stuff: 22
3x Pernicious Deed
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Garruk Relentless
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Swords to Plowshares

// Lands: 23
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
2x Savannah
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
4x Forest
3x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold

[brattin]

I agree with Arianrhod's core, especially in that 4x GSZ is not necessary (although it may be optimal, depending on the list). I played a Birthing Pod list for a while which ran more random non-green utility creatures (Reveillark, for example) and fewer GSZs.

Pod's almost certainly not a good call at the moment, though, with all the Deathrites around.

EDIT: I don't think swords is necessary--Deed kills most of the threats in the format, and pulse/vindicate hits the others. Or you can just block their creatures with Baneslayers etc.

[Kich867]

I agree with Arianrhod's core, especially in that 4x GSZ is not necessary (although it may be optimal, depending on the list). I played a Birthing Pod list for a while which ran more random non-green utility creatures (Reveillark, for example) and fewer GSZs.

Pod's almost certainly not a good call at the moment, though, with all the Deathrites around.

EDIT: I don't think swords is necessary--Deed kills most of the threats in the format, and pulse/vindicate hits the others. Or you can just block their creatures with Baneslayers etc.

I wouldn't even know what to fill those slots with. I could run 2x vindicate just for more flexible removal but then those last 2 spots, no idea. I had to cave to put a second thragtusk in just to hit 60 cards with this list haha.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

My bad: I felt like I was being challenged on that particular subject since I've dropped to 3x GSZ a long time ago in BUG Nic Fit, and, after some unnecessary investigation, I came to the wrong conclusion about Random Gestures.

@ Random Gestures: I'm sorry, and this time there is no sarcasm.

Anyhow, the reason why I don't run 4x GSZ is because, strangely enough, is that they're too consistent. And by that I mean, if you're stuck in a position where you have to spin Top, crack Fetches, and play an empty GSZ for an answer, the last thing you want is to brick on that GSZ. 3x seems like a good number for me, as any crucial GSZ targets are already in at 2x or 4x anyway.

Do you actually read anything you write here? You lack simplicity and concise English. I read most of your posts and they consist of regurgitated information or simply horrible ideas. They. Are. Bad.

Also:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...0-UW-Bomberman

If you're casting GSZ and fail to find you're either...
A. Winning the game
B. Losing anyway

The reason you play 1-2 copies of most creatures is because you play GSZ as a 4-of. It makes little sense to play 1-2 copies of it when you play a tool box of creatures.

"Bricking" on GSZ is such an unlikely scenario. If that's the case, you should have probably scooped already or just played storm combo.

So you want as high chance as possible to draw GSZ so you can win with durdle.dec.

[Arianrhod]

ELC apologized. There's no reason to keep pressuring him just because you disagree with him. And as someone who worked in the Writing Center for my college as a tutor, I take offensive to you criticizing his linguistic skills. Trust me, ELC's writing is a hell of a lot better than 75% of college students today. That this is even a topic for discussion on an international website for a hobby we all enjoy horrifies me.

I say again: he apologized. Move on.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

And as someone who worked in the Writing Center for my college as a tutor, I take offensive to you criticizing his linguistic skills. Trust me, ELC's writing is a hell of a lot better than 75% of college students today. That this is even a topic for discussion on an international website for a hobby we all enjoy horrifies me.

From Bardo, ala The Source forum rules:
1.0 Writing Skills
Presenting your thoughts clearly and coherently encourages others to take you seriously and to listen to what you have to say. The best way to do this is to use proper grammar, punctuation, capitalization, and sentence structure.

I'm a professional writer. I take offense to his writing. Apologies don't mean anything when intent shows otherwise.

Moving along now.

[HoneyT]

So there's this hot new deck out there you guys might be interested in. It's a BGx control deck that abuses the synergy between Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy to disrupt the opponent and ramp into big finishers. I think the kids were calling it "Nic Fit"?

I think it has lots of potential. Can we discuss this idea instead?

[Arianrhod]

From Bardo, ala The Source forum rules:
1.0 Writing Skills
Presenting your thoughts clearly and coherently encourages others to take you seriously and to listen to what you have to say. The best way to do this is to use proper grammar, punctuation, capitalization, and sentence structure.

I'm a professional writer. I take offense to his writing. Apologies don't mean anything when intent shows otherwise.

Moving along now.

For a professional writer, you don't understand English very well, do you?

Since you want to reference the forum rules:

Presenting your thoughts clearly and coherently encourages others to take you seriously and to listen to what you have to say. The best way to do this is to use proper grammar, punctuation, capitalization, and sentence structure.

This is not a mandate. This is not worthy of you condemning him. Do you show up waving your stacks of papers in the faces of every person on this forum who is English-Second Language? There a lot of people on this forum for whom English is not their first language. While I do not believe that ELC is among their number, I will never criticize someone's ideas merely because they aren't skilled in expressing them properly, with the utmost poise and precision as allowed by language.

And coming in here, saying about how you're "moving on," while unloading a passive-aggressive load of BULLSHIT, is not advancing the thread nor the well-being of its attending members. If you have truly moved on, you won't even reply to this. You'll take your arrogance and your elitist attitude, and you'll kindly remove yourself back to a thread that cares.

I do not suffer the presence of trolls. ELC may not be the most accomplished member of this thread, but I will not allow anyone to blithely poke their head in here and start potshotting the players who make this thread the best goddamn community on the Source. ELC is as entitled to his opinion as anyone else in this thread, and he is entitled to express that opinion how he deems fit. If he is taken less seriously as a result, then that's on him, and nobody else. Citing rules and acting like a pompous ass will not make you friends, nor will it win you points for your side of the argument.