Why not run Deathmark against Jund? I understand it can't kill Dark Confidant, but being able to pick off a Turn 1 DRS or a Turn 2 Goyf for 1 mana seems highlly valuable, and a permanent answer where Submerge on BBE is not.
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Deathmark is pretty narrow compared to the other options. The same could be said for Submerge too I suppose, but the difference is you can target anything once they play a Forest, and at instant speed. The Tempo play of having them redraw a Shaman or whatever is also very relevant sometimes. Deathmark is a fine card, but Disfigure does nearly the same thing in the Jund match, but also does work against Fish, Goblins, Burn, and a variety of other relevant creatures that may not be green or white. Even when Maverick was the Fair deck to beat, Deathmark would have been narrow.Originally Posted by Koby
If you must Submerge a BBE, just wait until they crack a fetch.
I finally got some testing done with Sinkholes against midrange decks and I have to agree to what many people said it is very powerful against those midrange decks. Attacking their manabase Sinkhole & 1 Loam, also makes daze that much sweeter. Jace is still powerful vs. Stoneblade but if you sinkhole, waste them you can also win with regular business. Jace beeing pretty bad against jund makes me reject him for now.
Concerning the removal I always played 2 disfigures, 3 decay in the maindeck since I don't want to rely on 2cmc removal. I play additional 1 Decay, 1 Disfigure, 3 Submerge, 1 Mind Harness in the SB. Shaman has to die against jund if we want to get ahead in tempo and if they are out of lands in hand: submerge, sinkhole on shaman can be enough tempo advantage to seal the win.
Currently playing: Elves
I ran Deathmark back when MM Blade was a thing, and that card was great at doing what it does best. The card is damn good, but VERY narrow.
-Matt
Yep, sadly Deathmark doesn't kill Goblins, Merfolk, or various Black creatures. At some point, I'm sure Black will get an inverse StP printed (B, Instant, Exile target creature, lose life equal to it's toughness). Until then, our options are limited. Disfigure, sucky as it is, seems to be the best option in the current metagame since you really need to be able to reliably kill an early Deathrite Shaman.
The thing with the Jund matchup (after playing 2 matches yesterday and barely squeezing out 1 of them, got 0-2ed), I realized that we cannot efficiently answer all their threats but they can usually use one card to answer ours. Submerge really does not do so much in the late game. After one for one-ing their threats here and there, I began to notice that their top decks are much more efficient than ours, especially with Punishing Fires recurring to win Goyf wars and pick off Delvers / Deathrite. Thinking about the match-up vs actually playing the matchup gave me a lot of insight on this matchup, and I have to say.. It was pretty awful.
How would you guys side for this matchup? I tried to side-in Sinkholes but did not see them at all in the 2 matches..
Here's the list I registered for SCG Atl
4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 TS
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
4 Wasteland
4 USea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant
4 Misty
1 Delta
SB
4 Sinkhole
1 Jitte
2 Flusterstorm
2 Divert
1 Life from the Loam
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Engineered Plague
I ran the 1-of LotV just as a test. She was fine for the most part, but I think trading her out for a MB Disfigure would probably be fine, or even a Dismember (which is what that slot was originally anyway). I still go back and forth between Thoughtseize and Hymn. Other than that, the main was fine for me.
The sideboard is really where you have the most play with this deck. Flusterstorm was not impressive all day, neither was Divert. I would definitely keep the 4 Sinkholes + 1 LftL as they seem to be the best plan of attack against decks like Jund and Stoneblade. I could see dropping some number of EEs, possibly even removing them altogether, but they did help me lock up a game against Gobs and are also decent against decks like Belcher, Dredge, Storm, Elves etc etc.
As it stands, I think this is what I would do for now:
MD
-1 Liliana
+1 Disfigure or Dismember
SB
-2 Flusterstorm
-2 Divert
-1 Engineered Plague
+2 Blue Blast
+2 Disfigure
+1 Spell Pierce or ??? (possibly thoughtseize) really not sure about this slot.
Anyway, I'm totally open to suggestions and feedback. As I said previously, I think this deck is definitely still a contender, we just need to come up with an effective way to combat the Jund menace and still be strong enough against combo, as combo should start to see a resurgence in popularity in response to the increase in Jund.
And unfortunately that is the key. You'll need the Sinkholes and LotL to balance things out.
Got first today (45 players) with this list:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
// Sideboard
2 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole
1 Life from the Loam
2 Surgical Extraction
I went 5-0-id, this have been my matchups:
Jund: 2-0
BUG Midrange: 2-1
ANT: 2-0
UW-Miracle: 2-1
ANT: 2-1
ID against Maverick
I'm very happy with the list, especially the sideboard. Snapcaster has been awesome, he's good against all those grinding matchups like Jund, and also helps against Esper and UW-Miracle, flashing back Sinkhole all day long. He's good against sweepers where we dont want to throw all our creatures on the board at once and also multiplies Thoughtseizes/ Hymns against Combo and Extractions against Dredge/Reanimator.
The only thing I'm still a bit unsure about is the best combination of Decay, Dismember and Library, perhaps I'll play 3 Decay, 2 Dismember, 1 Library again next time.
Sinkholes worked pretty good against Jund, I think thats definitely the way to go in this matchup.
Concerning the miracles matchup: SD.top looks very strong versus Hymn and Sinkhole and Wasteland/Loam is also much weaker due to their high basics count. How did that matchup work out for you guys?
Currently playing: Elves
List I'm planning to take with me to a Legacy event this weekend:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Dismember
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
2 Disfigure
3 Submerge
2 Spell Pierce
4 Sinkhole
1 Life from the Loam
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Darkblast
What do you cut for the 4 Sinkholes, 1 LftL, 2 Snapcasters against UW and Jund? The only things that seem obvious are the Forces, but it seems suspect to lose such a tempo-positive spell.
How afraid is this deck of punishing fire? I know there's 4 answers in the maindeck, but is it worth bringing in Surgical Extractions?
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
If I'm on the draw, I typically board out the Forces and Dazes, and maybe -1 Ponder and -1 Dismember. Disimember isn't where you want to be against Bolts and Hasters, and Force and Daze lose tons of value if you're on the draw and/or your opponent is also rocking Hymn.
I was surprised to see the lack of TA in scg edison this weeked.
I wasn't afraid of P.Fire at all. Normally, my Jund opponents would try to play non-basics against me anyway, which left my wastelands alone to target their Groves. Post-boarding you have 8 ways to disrupt the grove/fires combo, so it's really not that bad.
When I board against Jund I usually take out the FoW's and some number of Daze, depending on how many cards I'm boarding in. FoW is not very good against Jund. Daze can be okay, especially when you board in Sinkholes, but it's still only a marginally good card against them, mostly because of bbe and drs.
I do my best against Jund when I just try to play the control deck. Keep their lands under control with wasteland/sinkhole, use disfigure/dismember to kill DRS and Bob and try to save Abrupt Decays for goyfs, library, chains, and jittes.
Is anyone else thinking about thoughtseize vs. hymn? It seems to be common understanding that hymn is the better choice.
My pros and cons:
Pros for Thoughtseize:
- Better versus combo & control making sure you get that peace that matters.
- You gain information about how to play best.
- Cheaper!! The early turns "doing many things at the same time" is where the deck wins most matches, so 1 mana makes a difference. Deahtrite into: Thoughtseize, Wasteland, Delver with Daze backup turn 2 feels better to me than Hymn, but saving waste or delver for the next turn.
Pros for Hymn:
- Think its better against those midrange decks because of their redundancy.
- Hitting lands (to support sinkhole plan) and/or "the last 2 cards" is often a more powerful effect.
Problems I have with hymn is that I cannot cast it on a regular basis. Tropical island is often necessary to make sure you are not cut off from blue (ponders/brainstorms) making BB a liabilty.
If people would share their thoughts and actual testing results that would be very helfpul. Stuff like "I play it because I netdeck and was always happy": keep it to yourself.
Currently playing: Elves
Hey! That turns off 90% of the comments on mtgsource, now who would you like to give you stats now? =)Stuff like "I play it because I netdeck and was always happy": keep it to yourself.
Hi all!!!
I'm having serious problem against ScapeWish list's, my list of TA is standard and mi sidebord is:
2 Disfigure
3 E. Plague
1 Null Rod
2 Extirpate
3 Duress
2 Spell Pierce
2 ........ (flex slot)
Any advice???? Thanks
Top 4 split a local tournament with a pretty stock list. I played only 3 Abrupt Decays so I could fit a Sylvan Library, a Disfigure, and a Dismember in the main. Went with the Sinkhole plan in the board. It played out very very well, the deck seems very powerful and a nice break from combo. Much easier to play
I was a big fan of the Darkblast in the board. I tried out the Snapcasters last night in some testing and it seemed too inbred, so I just played EPlague.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
To be honest, I would like to pursue the conceptual framework of tempo as it stands for this deck. Usually this deck must accept some balance between increasing its potency (Hymn to Tourach, Abrupt Decay) at the opportunity cost of its speed of operation and fluidity (Thoughtseize, Snuff Out). I don't think the utility or disutility of taking one preference over the other are well understood even though one choice is almost always going to be better than an alternative. Or if they are, that content is certainly not posted here where it probably should be. This idea is mentioned indirectly once in a while, but never seems to be explored further. I have some examples:If people would share their thoughts and actual testing results that would be very helfpul. Stuff like "I play it because I netdeck and was always happy": keep it to yourself.
- Alix's reply to my post about Abrupt Decay from a few months ago touched on this in a micro level. Why is paying 2 mana and exposing a green source better than a cheaper alternative? These are very real costs that are associated with the card over its alternatives.
- Discussing the merits of building around Deathrite Shaman. For example, I find the Shaman version of the deck to be clunky whenever that card doesn't stick for whatever reason, but quite potent when it does. Why is this implicit variance objectively better than the alternative of not building around it?
- What is the ideal operating speed of the deck in a given metagame, and how is that determined? Clearly in a non-linear Brainstorm deck, one of the main benefits is the ability to interact heavily with your opponent, and choosing the optimal methods to do this are crucial to the deck. Why are the 4 Daze 0 Stifle decks good sometimes while 3 Daze 4 Stifle decks are better at other times?
I do not think that this deck is well investigated on a theoretical basis outside of an outdated view on tempo from 2010 or so. As much as Dan is a great guy/player and obviously understands this deck, I don't like the prospect of blindly copying his lists 4 times per year. It's great that some of the Curio Cavern guys understand what's going on, but that medium of communication is certainly not accessible for newer players like me that crave that same level of depth without 5+ years of experience. The testing is certainly part of it, but so are the more complicated play decisions, sideboarding, and other finesse parts of the game that get almost no attention.
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