[Deck] The Rock

[crow_mw]

And we're back with the rest of the dreck of the format. Boo.

We've been doing well in European tournies, but not so much stateside.

-Matt

Isn't it good for us to be slightly outside of the spotlight? We still get some great contributors on forum, but it is no fun playing if everyone and their dad packs 10 hate cards for you in their sideboard...

[damionblackgear]

Isn't it good for us to be slightly outside of the spotlight? We still get some great contributors on forum, but it is no fun playing if everyone and their dad packs 10 hate cards for you in their sideboard...

Yes and No.

We're not like other legacy decks - in the sense that we do something "broken" that they can fight against. WE fight "fair". It's hard to sideboard against a deck that not only fights fairly, but also is designed to force everything else to fight fair as well. The best option for people dealing with us wouldn't be to adjust their sideboard, but instead just play decks that don't give us time to enforce the "fairness" of the game. Belcher or Burn would be the best options, but we all know the feelings on those two decks.

If everyone does know about and try to beat us with their current deck(s), it gives us a chance to adapt to our own weaknesses. We're unique in the sense that we can adapt to change more quickly and efficiently than the rest of the format. That means that decks who are use to being able to beat us one way may learn that they're doing it wrong the next time (depending on analysis of what the actual problem was). On top of that, the more an individual deck does to stop us, the more fair the match becomes, which is our main goal anyway.

[ryn ball_2]

Hello fellow rock players, i'm back again piloting rock after a long break. 3-1 just pure swiss and went 3rd. omnitell (2nd), manaless dredge (1st)

R1 vs monoblue nivmagus: 2-0
R2 vs BR goblins: 1-2 (doesnt draw creatures on the 3rd game to seal a wall against 1/1 ringleader (e.plague on the play))
R3 vs mono red goblins: 2-1
R4 vs RDW: 2-0

LIST:

4 deathrite shaman
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary

4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 vindicate

4 swords to plowshares
2 abrupt decay

2 liliana of the veil
2 sensei's divining top

1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
2 bayou
3 scrubland
4 wasteland
4 marsh flats
4 verdant catacombs

SB

2 engineered explosives
2 engineered plague
2 perish
2 diabolic edict
3 surgical extraction
4 timely reinforcement

I go for the tempo build just tripping around it, 4 hymn and 4 vindicate (that can act as sinkhole) w/c performed good but not that best.

[Mr. Safety]

Yes and No.

We're not like other legacy decks - in the sense that we do something "broken" that they can fight against.

Speak for yourself, NO-Pro has been nuts out of my sideboard. Maybe not broken, but definitely unfair. Playing hard disruption followed by NO-Pro is pretty hard to beat. I imagine NO-Pro Rug will start crawling back into the metagame again. When Mental Misstep was rampant (another mid-range heavy metagame, in a sense) NO-Pro RUG was tearing it up. I've got my fingers crossed, and testing is working well, that NO-Pro is decent tech ATM.

Not sure if anyone else is trying this, but I really, really like it so far.

[Sughayyer]

@ryn-ball
the return to a tempo approach sounds interesting. Why (and where) did vindicates underperformed?
@all
in my meta I know there are at least 2 bug, 2 spiral tide, a bw deadguy, and 2 burns. There may be bant blade/esper blade, and also TES. I'm yet to see jund in there, so I don't know if I go for jund or stick with the rock, since souls beats up bug as much as bbe, and bgw has more tools against combo than jund. Btw the rock's list I'd use would be:
4 seize
4 hymn
4 stp
3 decay
1 pulse
2 tops
1 library
2 liliana
4 shaman
4 bob
4 goyf
4 kotr
... 3 souls on side.

I'm bringing this question up 'cause I feel this thread has more mature players, and in anywhere else they'll just tell me to go along the current trend without even reading.
Thanks again!!

[Mr. Safety]

Ok fellow Rockers, I need some knowledge. Dredge has been dominating the local legacy, winning at least 2 out of the last 3 events (I haven't attended, just news from my buddy Russ who has been consistently going...and losing in the last round to Dredge with mono-black aggro.) I have 4 Shamans, 4 Knights, 1 Bojuka Bog, and 2 GSZ's maindeck, along with 3 Surgical Extractions in the sideboard. I'm thinking this should be enough to give me decent odds against Dredge, but I want to make sure.

[Viridia]

I wouldnt bet on it, yes you have a chance of winning, but no, by no means it'll be easy :)

Deathrites are okay-ish and Knight into Bog is really good, if you have enough time to get that far.

Surgicals also only slow them down, so you really need a disruption heavy hand (aka 1-2 Surgicals + Deathrite + Knight/Bog) to be able to stand a chance.


Dredge can be very resistant ;)

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks, that's what I thought.

Current list BTW:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Eternal Witness

3x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Lingering Souls
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Sylvan Library
2x Liliana of the Veil

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Treetop Village
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains

Sideboard

1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Pithing Needle
1x Engineered Plague
1x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Surgical Extraction
4x Natural Order
1x Progenitus

[sdematt]

I'll reply to all the new posts later this weekend, but I won a tournament I hosted this weekend, going 4-1 and placing 1st on breakers in a Swiss+1 setting, losing only to Manaless Dredge in the last round.

My list was the usual.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Ok fellow Rockers, I need some knowledge. Dredge has been dominating the local legacy, winning at least 2 out of the last 3 events (I haven't attended, just news from my buddy Russ who has been consistently going...and losing in the last round to Dredge with mono-black aggro.) I have 4 Shamans, 4 Knights, 1 Bojuka Bog, and 2 GSZ's maindeck, along with 3 Surgical Extractions in the sideboard. I'm thinking this should be enough to give me decent odds against Dredge, but I want to make sure.

Add a scavenging ooze to lock down the game and 3 crypts in the board and you will be happy against graveyard decks.

[Barbed Blightning]

I'll reply to all the new posts later this weekend, but I won a tournament I hosted this weekend, going 4-1 and placing 1st on breakers in a Swiss+1 setting, losing only to Manaless Dredge in the last round.

My list was the usual.

-Matt

Congratulations. What is your main and side, though? It seems like this stuff changes daily.

[ryn ball_2]

@sug: actually vindicates doesnt underperformed last saturday, it gives what i need like destroying opponents land and his permanents. My main purpose is to screw their manabase via vindicate and to maximize my hymn (w/c sometimes grab a land from random discards). Nothing new about the vindicate tech.

@dredge match up: in my sb i have 3 surgicals, 2 EE and MD 4 shaman and 1 bog w/c atm i'm fine w/ that against dredge and also manaless dredge. With the inclusion of scavenging ooze in MD or SB it gives high rate of winning against dredge.

[damionblackgear]

Good job Matt.

Mr. Safety - Fair enough. I forgot about NO.

You should be fine against Dredge. You have more than I do (main) against them. Out of the board we have about the same amount coming in. Don't worry too much about that matchup. Just hold Surgicals if they have multiple dredgers in the yard. Wait until they have Either Narcomeba(s) or Ichorid (that matter: 2+ bridges as well, use own judgement on 1) on the stack and give it a go. The deck needs real creatures to make fake ones.

Sughayyer - Since the matchups are pretty much similar, I think your biggest concern in there is "what don't either do well?" That'd be Burn from my look. You're stuck with both being focused on discard and hoping they don't draw more. At least with Rock, you can gain some life back. Jund lacks that (because let's be honest, DRS is not a relevant life-gain ability).

[sdematt]

Congratulations. What is your main and side, though? It seems like this stuff changes daily.

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah (took out the 1 Plains, and this was much betteR)
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library
3 Lingering Souls

--BOARD--

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons (I knew there was going to be BUG/Pox/Emrakul)
2 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Golgari Charm
1 Zealous Persecution (The 1/1 split was because there were other Souls decks, so I might want to muck their team but not mine)
2 Thoughtseize



I won against RIP/Helm Combo, BUg Landstill, Mono Red Burn (very lucky), and Mono Black Pox while losing in the finals to Manaless Dredge. Since it was Swiss+1 though, I came ahead on breakers and won back my own dual lands. Boo.

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

Good job Matt.

Mr. Safety - Fair enough. I forgot about NO.

You should be fine against Dredge. You have more than I do (main) against them. Out of the board we have about the same amount coming in. Don't worry too much about that matchup. Just hold Surgicals if they have multiple dredgers in the yard. Wait until they have Either Narcomeba(s) or Ichorid (that matter: 2+ bridges as well, use own judgement on 1) on the stack and give it a go. The deck needs real creatures to make fake ones.

Sughayyer - Since the matchups are pretty much similar, I think your biggest concern in there is "what don't either do well?" That'd be Burn from my look. You're stuck with both being focused on discard and hoping they don't draw more. At least with Rock, you can gain some life back. Jund lacks that (because let's be honest, DRS is not a relevant life-gain ability).

I think this shouldn't be overlooked: don't count on Deathrite to shore up your Burn matchup. I have found that I don't like to pass a turn without using Deathrite in some way, and some times that means using up your spare green mana to gain some life (he's like a planeswalker, activate him EVERY TURN.) However, he isn't a 'serious' answer to direct damage.

Natural Order into Empyrial Archangel on the other hand...that seems kind of sexy to me. ;)

I goofed on my list above, too...only 3 Hymns and a maindeck Jitte is there, too. I have found that Lingering Souls is like an uber-efficient Elspeth, honestly. You get a better initial investment (2 tokens) and the second time you double up. I like it pretty good...but Elspeth still does the flying Giant Growth. Fairly torn on this, because I could trim to 1 Elspeth and work in another Hymn, or even maindeck Deeds by dropping the Souls/Jitte to the board.

[Esper3k]

Damnit, Matt - hah I'm playing a very similar maindeck now as well! (back to fiddling around with Knights since I wanted to shore up my Show & Tell matchup again)

[damionblackgear]

Ran in the noon Daily again. Ended 2-2 (misplayed myself out of one match). I switched back to the Mystic version from some suggestions on the previous versions videos and I liked it more than the other. Rounds were (in order):

Jund - 1-2 (misplayed lands which stopped me from killing bob, which snowballed into a single card winning for him)
Burn - 2-0 (I don't know, it just happened)
Esper - 2-0/1 (don't remember, it's been a long day)
Food Chain - 0-2 (One game made a bad choice game 1. The other I lost, no complaints)

Overall, still a little rusty from where I was about this time last year. I don't think the +2 Deathrite is my style or something I'll be looking to do again for a long time. I'm happy that it's working for others though. I'll keep trying to recover my ability to read hands without a Thoughtseize but I don't know how long that'll take (especially with no consistent schedule to play). I'm going to keep recording the games I run online and posting them though. Anyone who wants can watch the games (link to list[s] and vid[s]s in my signature)

[Kpicco]

Current list. Play tested intensely (on and offline.) Hasn't been put to the real test yet (actual large-scale tournament play), but it seems to have potential.

Creatures 16
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dryad Arbor

Spells 16
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

Artifacts, Enchantments, and Planeswalkers
3 Mox Diamond
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

Lands 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wastelands
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuko Bog
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest

Sideboard
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pernicious Deeds
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Crop Rotation
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Karakas

All suggestions / questions are welcome and encouraged.

[Petree]

Ran in the noon Daily again. Ended 2-2 (misplayed myself out of one match). I switched back to the Mystic version from some suggestions on the previous versions videos and I liked it more than the other. Rounds were (in order):

Jund - 1-2 (misplayed lands which stopped me from killing bob, which snowballed into a single card winning for him)
Burn - 2-0 (I don't know, it just happened)
Esper - 2-0/1 (don't remember, it's been a long day)
Food Chain - 0-2 (One game made a bad choice game 1. The other I lost, no complaints)

Overall, still a little rusty from where I was about this time last year. I don't think the +2 Deathrite is my style or something I'll be looking to do again for a long time. I'm happy that it's working for others though. I'll keep trying to recover my ability to read hands without a Thoughtseize but I don't know how long that'll take (especially with no consistent schedule to play). I'm going to keep recording the games I run online and posting them though. Anyone who wants can watch the games (link to list[s] and vid[s]s in my signature)

I actually watched and yes that was a very very bad misplay especially when you had it haha

I think if you going to play the moxes, you should take out the shamens especially since your only playing two. And with stoneforge I like the mox play better because it's soo much more explosive. But if you decide to not to play the moxes then you should definitely play three or four shamens for a ramp. The reason i say this is because I feel like shamens can be extra utility cards or extra creatures if you play the moxes.

Stoneforge is still a real card. Esper proves that and so did Ian haha.... I don't necessarily think you need qasali if your not playing enough green sun tutoring...

I'll think of some more stuff later... thought I'd stop by here after homework haha

[mike1987]

Trying out junk this week at my daily card game store

My list:

4 Verdant catacombs
2 Marsh flats
3 Windswept heath
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp


4 Deathrite shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Abrupt decay
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Vindicate

2 Sensei's Divining top
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Liliana of the veil

SB:
2 Pernicious deed
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
2 Duress
1 Zealous Persecution
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Diabolic edict


My meta these days is filled with U/R delvers, Sneak show, hive mind and miracles. I am more concerned about the latter 3, especially those show and tell decks with leyline of sanctity in the side, hence the 3 o ring. If the show decks pack 4 leyline will you guys remove the discards to add more useful cards or it's a better idea not to touch it? Do you guys think P deed is a good answer to miracles sudden entreat the angels? or there is a better solution? One turn could be lethal. =x